What are your opinions on sociopaths?

[Meowster]

This might make for an interesting discussion.

My dad is a sociopath (read more about sociopaths here http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html).

He'd fathered and subsequently abandoned numerous children from other relationships, before meeting my mother (ten years his senior and very naive), who he strung along and abused for over 20 years (he didn't tell her about these children). He never held a job, he made my mother work full time, yet despite this he never helped in the house and expected her to bring him breakfast, lunch and dinner. He did lots of drugs. He was hideously violent towards all of his children and my mum. He was controlling and manipulative. I thought I was going to die a number of times throughout my childhood.

My mother has been separated from him for many years now, and as a result his health has gone downhill (his sociopathy means he is unable to take good care of himself, he destroys his body with ridiculous amounts of poor quality drugs such as speed, he smokes copiously, he lives on the barest amount of social welfare as he cannot keep a job, which means he has to survive on the poorest quality food and rarely exercises).

Recently my mum has found out that he might well be dying as he's in extremely poor health and can't even walk. Knowing the state of my Dad's health and his age, it's actually quite likely that he won't see more than a few more years. Now here's the question:

Do I make up with my Dad before he dies, or is this completely pointless given that he's a serious sociopath? I haven't seen him in four years and all I have heard about him is from my brother (who sees him occasionally)... apparently my dad was obsessional over his hatred for me because I once threatened to call the police if he continued to abuse anyone in my family. But maybe dying will make him open his eyes up, or perhaps he will feel something for the people he will lose when he dies? Although I have mostly overwhelmingly bad memories of my dad, there were of course the good times too... though that is not unusual for a sociopath. Is there a point in trying to "reconcile" with him, or will it just be a completely pointless exercise that will give him an inflated sense of self-worth and smugness before he passes away? Might he feel something?

What do you think? Discuss

[Eggie]

To be honest, unless you really think you'll regret not seeing him, it sounds like he might not be worth bothering with.

[Meowster]

Do you think though, that even though he is a sociopath, actually having to face death might jerk some sense into him? Or would he just feel sorry for himself :/ ?

[Ponch]

Do I make up with my Dad before he dies, or is this completely pointless given that he's a serious sociopath?

My old man is (was?) a sociopath too. I'm well acquainted with the violence and all the other crap that goes along with having a father like that around.

If making up with him is something you feel you need to do, then do it. If, on the other hand, you think it's something you need to do for his benefit, I'd say you're wasting your time. He's made it his entire life without feeling anything for anyone but himself, dying is probably not going to change that. Were this a Hollywood movie, you two would reconcile, he'd realize what an ass he's been all your life, and you'd hug just as the sweet music came swelling in to end the scene.

But life isn't a movie, is it? Your reaching out to him, should you choose to do that, would be for your benefit, not his. He just has a head full of bad wiring, and that's all there is to it.

I haven't seen my dad since I was sixteen (almost twenty years ago). We ended on a nice, violent note (sort of a family tradition, I suppose) and have no more use for each other. No idea where he is these days. Maybe he's alive. Maybe he's dead. Don't know. Don't care. If tomorrow I got a telegram from him saying "I'm dying. Come see me." I might consider going. But my pop is a dick through and through and that telegram is never coming, is it?

Truth is, I wouldn't waste the gasoline it would take to drive to see him, even if it turned out he was just across town. Why? Because I'd just leave his bedside feeling angry and pissed off. He had no use for me as a kid or as an adult. Why would I believe he'd had a serious change of heart.

If your father is the same sort of man, I doubt he'll reach out to you. Even if he does, I'd suspect his motives are entirely selfish.

If you absolutely need "closure" or whatever, then go see him (but be prepared to come away with nothing good from the experience). Otherwise, tell him to piss up a rope.

That's my two cents, anyway.

- Ponch

[LimpingFish]

You said "make up with", as though you consider this a viable option, when the possibility exists that, even in poor health, he may well be incapable of such an emotional response.

Would seeing him give you closure despite the lack of any remorse on his part? Do you even want to offer him forgiveness for his past actions? Facing death may simply make him lay more blame at your feet, which could cause you some serious emotional stress. Only you can determine if this is something you're willing to face.

This is an extremely difficult personal choice for you, and I'd advise you not to make a decision purely based on whatever comes to light in this thread. It's easy for any of us to say "He's not worth the bother", even those that share similar experiences, but your decision will stay with you alone, long after this thread has ended.

[Meowster]

I don't think I need the closure personally. I guess that, 'cause he's my dad I kinda hope he would come around and realise what a jerk he's been, but I don't really expect it or need it, and I won't be sad if it doesn't happen. I just wonder if it could happen... though from everything I've read about sociopaths, it is unlikely. Ironically, I would be sad for my dad if he was dying because I'd empathise with the extreme sadness and fear he would feel for himself but that's it really.

Do you guys think sociopathy is a nature or nurture thing? I've read different opinions on the cause of sociopathy. None of my sisters are sociopaths, and my mum isn't, but my little brother definitely is (it's really sad seeing this in a sibling). I also discovered that one of my dad's sons (who my dad had never met in his life, he left his mother before the child was born) is a complete violent sociopath, though my half sister (who my dad also had nothing to do with) isn't a sociopath. Apparently it's more likely to be seen in males than females.

So it makes me wonder how likely this is to be passed on to my future children. I'd like to think that good nurturing would prevent a child from becoming a sociopath... maybe only a genetic weakness towards it is passed on? But I'm very worried that perhaps it is unpreventable... my half-brother (who has never met my father) is an extreme violent sociopath, and I'm hoping this is more to do with his upbringing by a bizarrely religious strict woman and a violent step-father, than my dad's genes. And as I said, my brother is a sociopath, but was raised in a family where his male role model was very violent.

Perhaps the significantly lower statistics for female sociopaths is because women are far less likely to be in a position where they can abuse their partner/family physically and mentally, and so their female children who look to them as a role model are not so likely to become sociopaths by learning their behaviour. Whereas men are more likely to be in a position where they can both physically and mentally abuse their partner and family, and the male children, who look to their fathers as role models, then learn/adopt this behaviour and pass it on through generations in this way?

I have read various accounts of women who claim their child's sociopathy was genetically acquired from the father, yet in all these accounts I read, the women only left the sociopath when the child was 2 and a half or more years old. That may seem young, but early sociopathic behaviour is seen around this age so surely it's not too young to have learned it...?

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

When you forgive someone you do it for yourself, not for them.  That's probably all you need to do here, to get that out of the way before you don't have the chance anymore.  It seems you at least recognize his mental state is partly responsible for his behavior, though it would be naive to not blame a person for their poor personal choices (like having tons of kids when they know they're a druggie and can't/don't want to support them).  Yeah, it's tough sometimes, but once it's done you can start throwing some of the excess baggage you're carrying away.

Also, the concept of genetically inherited sociopathy is, quite honestly, ridiculous.  Kind of like all those conflicting accounts of the benefit of vitamin supplements, yet every doctor I personally ask about it will say 'well, there's no conclusive proof they help'; some people just champion ideas whether or not there's a grain of truth there (and sometimes if there's only a grain).

[LGM]

Having read Steinbeck's East of Eden, I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that some are born simply as monsters. In a scientific context, this is sociopathy. Seeing him and reconciling with him will only help/benefit you. If he is indeed a thoroughbred sociopath, there is nothing you can do to change that. There is enough evidence abound to prove this. However, as others have said, if it will help you... Then by all means, do it. Otherwise, he will remain the same person as he ever was and he will die unhappy. You should not feel guilt in this, as he has been genetically built to be this way form the get go. Tragic, yes. But it is out of your hands.

Aside from that, he is still a human being. Deterred as he is from normal human feeling, it might still be worth a try. If seeing him will remove doubt or question from your mind, do it. If not, I can't see any reason why you should subject yourself to that.

[RickJ]

I pretty much agree with LGM and the others.   Do what you think is the right thing to do.  If that is to offer comfort to your father then do so without expecting anything in return.  If you get a positive response then it will be a pleasant surprise;  if not then you will have the satisfaction of having done the right thing.  Either way you will not have any future doubts or regrets about what you should have done, could have done, have done or have not done.   

[Andail]

I concur with above speakers.

If you need closure, and expect that you will afterwards think "darn I wish I could have told him this and that before it was too late", then why not speak your mind and vent some steam.

If you think it will be constructive and improve your relationship, then think again. There's virtually nothing to build on here, so just get on with your own life really.

If you go for the first option, rehearse and be well prepared. Bring a friend. Don't expect it to be constructive, just give your speech and leave, then maybe have a pint with said friend and talk about it.

[Meowster]

So, the new question is: Sociopaths, a product of nature or nurture? Or both?

[SSH]

The whole nature/nurture debate sort of negates that the person themself has some kind of choice. Sorry to delve into pop culture but another example doesn't spring to mind readily: take Rachel Hilton on the X Factor. She grew up poor, got a crack habit and had kids taken into care. Now she's sorted herself out somewhat but obviously still has issues. Or take Britney Spears: had loads from when she was small yet her mental state seems to have deteriorated over time. Or even the ex-alchoholic outgoing president. It is possible for people to redeem themselves to some extent but its also possible to let yourself slide into things.

[Stupot]

I wouldn't worry about the Nature V Nurture question to be honest with you... Sometimes mental disorders can have a degree of genetic basis, but this doesn't really mean anything.  It's a mixture of upbringing, schooling, childhood experiences... hundreds of tiny factors that help to shape how any of us turn out...

I hate people who use phrases such as 'Like father like son' or ' chip off the old block'... why do I hate those phrases?  Well I'd like to think I'm nothing like my father... it's bad enough that I look like the cunt, I don't really want to end up with his problems.  He's hurt a lot of people and I have no intention to end up like him regardless of what the genes decide.

Sociopathy boils down to an extreme uncontrollable selfishness.  You can't make him see sense with a few words of forgivness.  Drug users are also very selfish people.  Believe me, I'm surrounded my them.   So a sociopathic drug user really is beyond help.

[Erpy]

In a course I'm taking we had a guest speaker today who was diagnosed with Antisocial personality disorder at some point and had the history to go with it...a "criminal career", substance abuse and manipulating others. He eventually turned his life around and now has a day job organising sessions for juvenile delinquents. I believe both nature and nurture play a role. Some have a genetic vulnerability to antisocial personality disorder, like others have a vulnerability to schitzophrenia or addictions, but nurture probably plays a role in fostering the condition. (the guest speaker who spoke for our class came from a dysfunctional family)

I've heard the condition tends to diminish slightly as the person gets older, so some (but not all) people deemed sociopaths before eventually "mellow", but environmental factors can play a large role. The process is long and gradual, not a sudden thing like imminent death could change, since the whole sociopathy-factor is ingrained in one's personality. If your dad was a jerk before, he'll probably still be a jerk. Like others said, it's not a movie.

[Meowster]

My dad's brother behaved in the same sociopathic way as my father when he was younger, but "mellowed" with age. I suspect this is more to do with the fact that as he got older he was no longer able to hit his children as they were stronger than him, and if his wife left him he wouldn't be able to replace her so easily, etc. I'm sure that really bad sociopaths probably only "mellow out" because they get to an age where they can no longer replace what they lose...

And yeah Stupot it winds me up so much that I share some of my dads facial features, jeez

[Miez]

Do I make up with my Dad before he dies, or is this completely pointless given that he's a serious sociopath? I haven't seen him in four years and all I have heard about him is from my brother (who sees him occasionally)... apparently my dad was obsessional over his hatred for me because I once threatened to call the police if he continued to abuse anyone in my family. But maybe dying will make him open his eyes up, or perhaps he will feel something for the people he will lose when he dies? Although I have mostly overwhelmingly bad memories of my dad, there were of course the good times too... though that is not unusual for a sociopath. Is there a point in trying to "reconcile" with him, or will it just be a completely pointless exercise that will give him an inflated sense of self-worth and smugness before he passes away? Might he feel something?

What do you think? Discuss

I think you should try to make up - or at least reach out. He sounds like a pretty horrible man and you're most likely not going to accomplish anything. But what if he dies and you didn't try? you might regret not having taken a chance. But if you decide to reach out, do it for yourself, not for him.
My two cents...

[edit] ehm - basically what Prog said some posts before...

[MillsJROSS]

Ultimately, this is something you'll figure out for yourself. My take on it is that you should not go to see your father. Chances are likely that you'll leave there dissatisfied with the results. I'm not sure which is worse, the lingering doubt that you should have tried, or the bad memory invoked if you actually try to make amends with your father.

I really don't like the "What if you don't try?" response people tend to have in these situations. You can put more stock in yourself, as far as I'm concerned, if you're intelligent enough to see the end result, and decide it's not worth it. Your father sounds like a miserable human being, and I wouldn't give him the luxury of your time. If he has a glimmer of good in him, than he'll be the one to try to make amends.

This just sounds like a situation where you prepare for the worst and hope for the worst. Because even if your dad seems forgiving, you might not want to be sucked into his life again. People rarely change. As I can't really relate to this, though...my opinion only means so much in this issue.

-MillsJROSS

[rharpe]

Out of respect for him being your father, you should see him one last time. Maybe it will help you with closure. If you get there and he starts yelling and screaming at you with insults... say what you have to say and leave.

That is a brave and respectable thing to do as a son and as a man.

[Nikolas]

Maybe try and "meet halfways"?

I mean, going there, out of the blue to see him is definately not a good idea, and it won't work like in the movies. But if you did have some sort of discussion over the phone, or something, to see how he feels, and he feels he'd like to see you, maybe there is a glimpse of hope that you may 'enjoy' somehow the meeting.

If he does make a small effort, it may mean something to you, won't it?

Respect, fatherhood, etc, all mean nothing, I'm sorry (for me). In this case. I adore my family, and my parents, but I was treated properly. I'm not the kind who forgives easily... (just so you know ... )

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

That is a brave and respectable thing to do as a son and as a man.

Or as a daughter and a woman, in Meowster's case.