What makes a strong, likable character?

[Meowster]

EDIT: Meh. I changed the thread a bit. Basically, what do you think builds a strong and likable character, one that you can connect to as a player and sympathise with?

[Minimi]

Hmm.. Interesting. I played The Longest Journey and Syberia and I don't think that these girls were made for men only. But I think it's mostly because of in real life, Man are mostly the ones who think they can do everything right, and that they are strong. Though the history of women comes from the time that the wife was at work at home, and all the adventures and important jobs were done by men. At the present that has been changed, and women are now also an important factor of society, and they aren't anymore the people that excist to clean and make dinner. So I think that at the present, we will see alot more female-actionhero's, than earlier.

Well, that's atleast what I think

[Meowster]

I have to admit they must be the only adventure games I've never played. I've never heard of Syberia and as for Longest Journey.... it wouldn't run on XP

But my point is, that even when we DO see female heroes, they're harder to CONNECT to on a personal level. Harder to sympathise with and understand. Like if a girl took the role of Guybrush, we'd probably just see her as a stupid blonde, instead of a clumsy, lovable hero.

[Privateer Puddin']

I won't even start on games such as Resident Evil, Tekken, etc., where the females are merely eye candy.

you played RE? i would say the females are certainly not just eye candy. they let the player see the game from a different point of view and offer a slightly different playing method (not being as strong having to be more careful, carrying different amount of items)

[Trapezoid]

Well, for one thing, the majority of game designers and most players are male. It's just hard to write for a female character, and it's hard to connect with one. I think it's a subconscious problem. You could take a female character's lines and give them to a male, and for the most part, it would be easier for the male player to connect with.
I'm looking forward to Pestilence's game, though. Her character "Pancake" is so quirky that it's no problem for me to connect with her.

[Meowster]

PP: With games such as RE, the females are obviously gonna have less strength as the males... however, I don't see why this explains them running around in stupid mini skirts/hot pants/boob tubes/whatever else they find nessecary in a fight against evil.

Oh my god something just fell from the ceilling, on to my head, bounced on to the floor and scuttled under the bed. And this Macaroni Cheese is disgusting.

Anyway, I think part of the difficulty in connected could maybe be due to the... blegh. Well, Guybrush always kinda reckoned he was pretty goodlooking, right? But in reality he was running round in a coat a few sized too big... generally pretty scruffy. Same with the DOTT team, and S+M, etc.. They were scruffy, and this sort of made them more casual and therefore easier to connect with.

Most female leads tend to be smarter dressed, right? Better groomed. Nice hair, nice shoes, nice clothes, pretty walk. Perhaps this makes them slightly more formal, and in our minds makes them more closed and harder to connect with?

Just a theory. What do you think?

[Privateer Puddin']

Yep, some of the girls in the resident evil series are slightly under dressed for the job, however not all of them :
http://www.games-power-world.de/resihilfe_gamecube/3.43.44.jpg

[Meowster]

I like her. She seems a bit unusual, or something.

Does anybody else think that the cop from Silent Hill 1 is the SPLITTING IMAGE OF CAMERON DIAZ?!??

[Dave Gilbert]

 

[Layabout]

Men make games. Men make women sexy to sell game. Men dont care about female gamers, cause all teh money is in 'male gamers' (even though the highest selling game of all time has more female players than male players (being the sims))

Stupid dopey ape like males are too stupid to realise this, not suprisingly they are the people who design fps games. They are too stupid to make a game with substance or a story or a real challenge.

[Kweepa]

There's Sophia from Fate of Atlantis too.
In wits and team modes, she's just as important as Indy (as far as I remember). And dressed about as sensibly.
Good point about Alone in the Dark - high heels indeed!

Then there's Mika in RON.

And what about Samus Aran in Metroid? You can hardly tell she's female.

That does look like Cameron Diaz, but it's not a big surprise. The Japanese quite often base characters on American film stars. When we were modelling Samus at Retro, Nintendo sent us pictures of Natalie Portman and said "something like this".

[Kweepa]

"you saw him taking crap from his faithless girlfriend, overbearing mother and annoying boss throughout the game, you'd probably feel disgust and yell at him to grow a spine"

So that goes on throughout Syberia? That really turned me off the demo.

[Babar]

What about female characters who act extra macho? I am thinking (not exactly from an adventure game) the woman from Alien (I forgot her name). She was not exactly eye candy. I really could identify with the girl in "Clan of the Cave bear" (if anyone's read it), but maybe that doesn't count cause it's a book, giving much more room for explainations and descriptions than a game.
I never could identify with Sophia in Indiana jones. Maybe its not cause she was a female, but I dunno, she seemed very fake. Maybe if a female made a game she could make a more natural character, instead of the stereotypical way they are usually portrayed. Just my thoughts on the subject

[MrColossal]

i don't think it's a matter of guys playing games as it is a matter of guys MAKING games

back in the old atari days there were no real characters. just blips on a screen and random aliens attacking. Then we get Pac Man and he's a sort of character and then we get jumpman through Nintendo and so on and so on. Why is Pac Man a man? Why is jumpman saving his girlfriend?!? well just cause, it was the early days of video games and they couldn't create an amazing back story or any story really that wasn't immediatly understood from playing the game [EAT PELLETS AVOID GHOSTS] so this is what they did. Save the girlfriend is a reason for doing something in the game, right along with shoot the aliens and WIZARD NEEDS FOOD!

"I mean, let's face it. Women are from venus, Men are from Mars. We understand each other very little, and connect very rarely on a mental level. "

i sure do hope this is a joke cause otherwise i think you've bought into a terrible stereotype of men and women and as a favour to me i'd like you to reevaluate it.

the earliest female lead character i can think of is Ms. Pacman and that game sold extremely well and is one of the top 3 best selling arcade games ever... and it was developed by 2 guys!

after that i can think of Kings Quest 3 was it? with Rosella. Created by husband and wife.

There's a question for you Yufster... if guys make games for guys with guys in them how come Roberta Williams' 10 or so games mostly feature guys as the main character? Cause she bought into the whole men are strong deal and couldn't compete with a female character in a "Man's" world or cause she was trying to tell a story?

I think you need to do some more research and take in more information

the street fighter series had women you could play, mortal kombat, tekken, DOA, just about every fighting game. And before you say "but they wore skirts and giggled" think about the fact that the men were also stereotypes, big muscles deep voices [except for Vega]

remember that women can find male game character's attractive too. I know people who find Alucard from Castelvania Symphony of the Night attractive. The same with Chris Redfield (?) from Resident Evil and the main character from Silent Hill.

Wishbringer, Zork, Myst and countless other games didn't even assign a gender to the main character, don't forget those games.

What about the final fantasy games? female characters in them, Final Fantasy 6 for SNES in america, the main character was a woman and she saved the day. Don't forget those games.

Duke Nuk'em/Will Rock/etc is a big hulking man with muscles and "tude" and yet you forget about them when a woman is placed in a stereotypical role.

"Maybe this was completely unintentional but it still stands that the female needed rescuing, as per usual."

ok sorry that i have to be harsh here but shut the hellllllll up. What in the world are you talking about?!

jesus that just makes me afraid to do anything with ANY gender. all my games from now on will feature genderless robots devoid of emotion, is this better? goddammit it was just a puzzle, lighten the hell up.

Dave: Bobbin hid his face for a more important reason than remaining aloof. And you can't say that the reason Manny Calavera was the way he was cause it wasn't socially acceptable for him to be anything else. that's putting words into the designers mouths or some such thing. Maybe again... They were designing a character, sure maybe that character was a little over done but it was a character none the less.

"Maybe if a female made a game she could make a more natural character"

I hate that statement, that women can write women and men can't. Or whenever someone is told "A woman wouldn't say that" or "That's not how a woman would react to that situation" it's like "Who are you to say that?" Just cause I'm a man doesn't mean I'm not a human and I like to feel I have a grasp on how HUMANS react to certain situations. Some women scream when they're scared, men do to. Some men don't scream and want to hit things and take charge, women also. Some men cry and so do women. Some men wear skirts and some women wear pants. There is NO way to pin point what a man will do and what a woman will do in a given situation, it's what the character will do. Write the damned character and the actions and reactions will follow.

eric

[Las Naranjas]

Additionally, with Gabriel and Manny, particularly with the latter, the dispersal of those defence mechanisms was a integral part of their development over the course of the plot rather than spinelessness on the parts of the writers.

With the Syberia's and TLJ's I'd be more interested if the character was a character who happened to be female than the product of writers patting themselves on the back for having gone against male protagonists.... like 70% of new AG's coming out are going against it.


Grace as a female protagonist wasn't amazingly well written in the broader spectrum of things, but the simple formulas used, well received in other media forms meant it's far easier to relate than a stoner chick gasping irritatingly in fantasy worlds or a puppet who only speaks in orchestrated mobile phone calls.

[DG from Uni]

I can indentify with some female characters in games.

For example, I really enjoy Hand of Fate and thought Zanthia is one of the better adventure game heroes.

She wasn't just a blank-slate stereotype -- I liked her character make-up and development (One of my favourite bits is where a swamp creature tries to eat her and she just grabs his tongue and goes, "Watch it, slimeball!")

Also, I identified with Laura Bow -- Espeically in Dagger of Amon Ra (Perhaps it because I'm also studying journalism, but I really understand leaving your family to follow your dreams and goals)

Both Hand of Fate and the Laura Bow series are examples of popular adventures games with heroines against certain stereotypes.

And both are very strong character make-ups.

[Meowster]

Colossal, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying completely. This isn't a whiney "there are no girls in games!" thread. I'm saying that it's harder to connect with female characters. Mentally. It's harder to feel the same level of affection for a female character as it is to feel for say, Guybrush or Ben Throttle or whatever.

PERHAPS this is because of the way they are often the characters that need rescuing, or PERHAPS it is because they usually appear more formal than the player character.

There's a question for you Yufster... if guys make games for guys with guys in them how come Roberta Williams' 10 or so games mostly feature guys as the main character? Cause she bought into the whole men are strong deal and couldn't compete with a female character in a "Man's" world or cause she was trying to tell a story?

See, you're getting me wrong. ¬¬ I'm not saying that anybody is making games that are sexist or whatever.  I'm merely saying it's HARDER TO IDENTIFY WITH FEMALE CHARACTERS.

Perhaps you should read a bit more carefully before leaping down anybodies throat again.  Â¬_¬

[MrColossal]

well you said a LOT of things and they all didn't remain on track yufster.

why bring up alone in the dark and lara croft and say that they are poor characters? Then mention that laverne had to be rescued by a man. And then mention role reversal with Elaine? And then mention females as "eye candy" in Tekken and Resident Evil.

if you wanted to stick to your subject maybe you should have left out the middle 3 paragraphs about misrepresentation of women.

and i did answer some of your questions... why don't you read my post and see...

"And where do you think people have succeeding in creating a well characterized and likable female lead?" answered that.

"And was it only LucasArts that wasn't afraid of a female lead character?" answered.

and where are you even getting the idea that it's difficult to connect with a female lead character?

i was just as riveted when watching Boys Don't Cry or Frida as I was when watching Barfly or About Smidt. The same with reading Invisible Monsters and Ham On Rye. The same with playing King's Quest 3 and King's Quest 4.

I guess it's personal to you that you have a hard time getting into the character when it's a woman.

That seems to be the case and I doubt there is anyway we can diagnose that problem for you. Maybe you should have asked if anyone else has a problem suturing in to a female lead character.

as for females being smarter dressed, April Ryan was just wearing clothes, the same with the lady from Syberia. They didn't have on suits or anything so I don't think this makes sense to the idea that females are harder to take seriously as a main character. As you said yourself in the same post that it's stupid when women wear tube tops and all that and then say that they are usually smarter dressed.

In the first game guybrush actually wore a clean white shirt and pants and was very smartly dressed, elaine is governor and she was also wearing clean clothes i'm sure, second game he gets the stubble and the long coat, third game back to the nice clothes. so i think it's safe to say that theory isn't valid.

[GarageGothic]

I'm not saying that anybody is making games that are sexist or whatever. I'm merely saying it's HARDER TO IDENTIFY WITH FEMALE CHARACTERS.

I don't really agree with this. I find it much easier to identify with females than with most male characters - and if I have a choice between a male and female player character, I ALWAYS choose the female. HOWEVER, I often find male characters more INTERESTING than female, and I think this is where we are missing the point.

Maybe it ISN'T about identification. After all, who REALLY identifies with Guybrush, or Manny, or even Gabriel? Surely I can't be the only person groaning when my character does something incredibly stupid and gets in trouble because of honor, threatened masculinity or other personal hang-ups (as a non-game example, could you imagine a female Marty McFly (Mary McFly?) having such an issue with people calling her "chicken"?). In fact, male characters are often so idiosyncratic that I find myself totally disconnected from them - from an identification point of view - and see them more as a fictional character in a movie or a book. Whereas female characters often have so little personality that it's easy to project yourself into their bodies (that ended up sounding dirty, but you know what I mean).

There's a long tradition for flawed males, way back from ancient Greece (Aristotle defined tragedy as the story of a good man coming to a tragic end because of a small but fatal flaw in his character), over the courtly romances of medieval times to the film noirs of the 1930s and '40s. But there isn't really ANY tradition for female leads outside the genre of romance (how about a Jane Austen game? Anyone?) and - to a degree - the gothic novel, which is mirrored in Phantasmagoria (still, here the female character is very much a representative of the reader, a subject through whom to experience the horror).

Could it be that male designers are afraid of creating flawed female characters? Aside from Laverne, I can't remember a single game where a woman was portrayed any less than "ideal". Grace was always way ahead of Gabe, and although Kate Walker and April Ryan showed emotion, it never got in the way of their mission.
In traditional fiction, the woman has always been either the love interest, the object to be won by the male lead, or the femme fatale, the siren luring him to his destruction. Transferring these stereotypes to main characters aren't enough. I'm not sure that men and women are as different as some people claim (at least I feel as alienated from my male friends as my female), and maybe we SHOULD'T be afraid of writing female player characters as "guys with tits". As long as they are non-stereotypical guys with (non-stereotypical) tits No people are alike, and I see no reason why female characters should be considered a league of their own. In fact, the moment that you see a character first and foremost as a woman, maybe you should consider rewriting her and draw forth some less trivial characteristic to describe her persona.

[MrColossal]

GarageGothic for president




on second thought lemme add something:

"Could it be that male designers are afraid of creating flawed female characters?"

this right here seems like something i could almost 100% agree on... I took it that you ment if they portrayed a female wrongly people would get upset and say "why is the female lead so stupid" or some such. As in a designer fears to create anything but a strong female character for fear of the backlash that the game demonizes women.

if that's what you mean than i can almost 100% agree, if not then i almost 100% agree with what i just said. except i can't figure out why they'd feel better creating a "sexy" pile of polygons with barely any "clothes" on and not feel scared of a backlash.