Hurray for San Francisco!

[shbaz]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040224/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_gay_marriage_14

you goddamned peice of shit

Even if that weren't old news, couldn't you have guessed that? What sucks is that since most Americans are just as close minded, if the Dem candidate doesn't declare the same, Bush has a good chance of winning again.

[Meowster]

Last time I was offended at all the bad language you used, but this time you've gone too far! How could anyone debate the bible! It's the word of God! It is the truth and the devine light! Everything that's holy and pure is within the bible, so it must be truth.

I'm shocked and dismayed. No wonder I restrict my kids from using the internet, especially when I see filth like this. I try to give my children a good Christian upbringing and I don't expect them to question the word of God. God would be angry if anyone questioned it. And God is pure and holy, so why would anyone want to question him anyway. It's better than following SATAN!

In other news: I ultra, ultra respect Peter Thomas, even though his views go against every single one of mine, when it comes to Gay Rights. He's seriously the only christian with such views, that I have ever respected. He seems to be willing to examine his own beliefs and he's not rude or anything. I just thought I'd mention it because, a lot of christians in his shoes would be screaming the details of how we're going to burn in hell.

What I don't get is that, if most people here are pro-gay marriage, and most people I know (even in catholic Ireland!) are pro-gay marriage... and most of the americans I know are pro gay-marriage... Why in good god did the vote a couple of years ago on Gay Marriages get a 66% result for the anti-gay side?

[SSH]

In other news: I ultra, ultra respect Peter Thomas, even though his views go against every single one of mine, when it comes to Gay Rights. He's seriously the only christian with such views, that I have ever respected. He seems to be willing to examine his own beliefs and he's not rude or anything. I just thought I'd mention it because, a lot of christians in his shoes would be screaming the details of how ****we're **** going to burn in hell.

Yufster, are you in a gay marriage? m0ds will be so disappointed!

also, out of interest, do you not respect my views on gay rights, or did you not realise that I'm a Christian, or something else?

[shbaz]

I'm in America, and most of the Americans I know are against gay marriage. The reason most of the Americans you talk to are not against gay marriage is probably because you don't enjoy talking to bigots on the Internet, eh?

Poor Peter and SSH are ganged up upon, I respect them both.

[SSH]

All of the Irish people I know think that Ian Paisley is a right pillock, but that doesn't stop him getting votes, either...

My ex-flatmate is married to a girl who's sister is married to Ian Paisley Jr., though...

[Meowster]

I just noticed that Peter Thomas appears to be a particularly fundamental christian and yet still is unlike the stereotype and is quite gentle about the way he puts his point across, which is more than I can say for a lot of pro-gay people on this thread...

On the other hand I completely disagree with him and think Gay Marriage should totally be allowed.

EDIT: Now I can tell all my friends that I know a guy who knows another guy who knows a girl who has a sister that is married to a  guy that is related to Ian Paisley!!!

As a matter of interest, does it specifically say in the bible at any point that A Marriage between two people of the same sex is not allowed? I am talking about Marriage. Not whether it is right; specifically marriage. Does it say that? Anybody know?

[Peter Thomas]

Hello all - I am awake again! Let us celebrate.

To answer Indiana, I can't think of a specific verse that talks about MARRIAGE only... I honestly can't. It talks about not being gay though, so I suppose that sort of covers the marriage aspect.

But again - a direct answer from me would be 'no'.

To answer earlier posts, yeah - I messed up. I said the earth was 2,000 years old because...actually... I have no hell of an idea why I said that...maybe I was just really tired, I have no clue  The rest of you were right - the earth is about 4,000 (5,000 at the absolute most) years old.

For DG - The dinosaur issue doesn't come into the bible a lot because the bible is not what you would call a 'modern epic'. There is no description of pretty much anything environmental if you look at it. No one comments on the architechture of Pharo's empire, no one talks about the soft hay Jesus was born in (who knows - coulda been prickly as hell...) and no one cares about flying lizards unless they do something dramatic for the plot. Which they didn't. So they didn't get a mention.

That, however, doesn't deny their existence at all. I believe there were all sorts of freaky animals running around, and I don't know too many *normal* christians who don't. But I don't believe they predate the existance of the earth. When I said "dinosaurs that are supposedly 6 million years old" I was talking about it from a scientific point of view. I believe dinosaurs did NOT predate man. Well, maybe by a day or two, because God created animals before man, but not any longer.

As for farlander's posts about the Jewish/Roman trial, I will have to look into it further. I can completely see where you're coming from, and it does seem a little strange, however there are a few things that don't quite add up. I won't go into it because it would take forever and nobody would care. But also I don't have any proof for my side, so I'll shut up...

[Meowster]

Please read this, then.

(To all of the below: I'm trying to speak from a Christian viewpoint. I believe that Gay People have every right, I believe that there is nothing wrong or condemnable about their conduct, I believe it's perfectly natural and I do not believe in god. However, I tried to understand the christian viewpoint for this argument.)

Okay well, just a thought... The Bible does not specifically say that marriage between two men or two women is wrong. According to the bible we are all born sinners and all of us do things knowing that it goes against the bible, whether it's profanity or whatever. So if being gay is a sin, then gay people are sinners, and so are we all. They're no more or less a sinner, especially if they believe what they do is right.

If the bible does not ban the marriage... fine, so it says that being gay is wrong, but.. here is my theory for christians... you're supposed to get married to the one you love, right? Well, if gay people are allowed to marry... so they got the first part wrong in that they're gay, but at least they're getting the second part right in that they carry out their relationship under the bond of marriage.

I don't think that, according to christian faith, we are allowed to judge others and, if god does not like the marriage then I'm sure he'll find some way of letting us know, or he'll spank them all when they go to heaven.

The bible says a lot of things are wrong that we do every day. However, it has not specifically banned a gay marriage, and I don't believe Bush has the authority or the right to do such a thing as write that in to the American Constitution. Since the bible does not BAN gay marriage SPECIFICALLY, perhaps it is best to allow them to go forward, and let God himself decide whether they are valid or not. If Christians choose to believe they are not valid, then that is their choice. But we have not got the right to disallow something like that unless god too, has disallowed it.

Does that seem that fair? Do you understand what I meant or am I being too muddled?


EDIT: I mean, two wrongs don't make a right. If it's wrong for them to be gay, and it's also wrong for them to have a relationship out of the bonds of marriage... At least if they have a relationship within the sacred marriage bond, it's half right. You see?

[MillsJROSS]

Why even look into the bible for whether or not gay marriage is legal or not? No religious book should have any weight as to the equality of any person. This country is based on freedom, "For liberty and Justice for all," and denying a people a right given to 90% of the rest of the people is a form of persecution.

If you want to, call marriage something else, but let gay couples be allowed the right to the same tax breaks as "normal" couples. I don't see how it makes marriage any more or less special. My parents won't suddenly say, "I can sleep around now that gay couples can be married," or "Somehow I don't love you as much anymore." This would never happen, or wouldn't be caused by allowing gay marriages.

I'm allowed to marry any girl I want, even if I don't love her...but because I'm a man and she is a women, suddenly wether I love her or not doesn't matter to the state. Whether it matters to religions or not doesn't matter. However, I can only assume from my Jewish roots, marriage isn't about marrying someone you loved...otherwise how does one go about explaining planned marriages, where you've never seen your spouse? So I'm allowed to marry a complete stranger (granted a U.S. citizen, otherwise the govenment will look into it), but these two men/women who've known each other for years can't do the same thing?

If we go so far as to say Gay people can't get married, and it ruins the sanctity of marriage, why not go further? Gay people dating, totally ruins my night at the movie. All I can think about with my arm wrapped around my girl, are gay couples. Damn them, I say! For ruining this whole movie for me! In fact them breathing the same air, that God breathed into man, ruins breathing for me, as well. Each air molecule is tainted by the fact that a person who had relations with a person of the same sex, might have breathed the same air! How will I live! I say concentration camps! Put them to work, until they realise that gay marriage just isn't meant to be.

Mind you, I don't think the U.S. is going to start concentration camps, or have anything remotely as bad as the Nazi's. However, how can a supposed free country, claim to be such, when it's obvious that banning something from someone and allowing others it's use, not be considered directly opposed to what the country stands for. I think that by allowing a law that supposedly keeps the sanctity of marriage, it does a piss poor job of holding to it's own morals of freedom.

I won't enter any debates as to the religious side of this argument, or any religious topics being discussed. I'll leave that for another thread. Perhaps it's shit like this that makes it so damn hard to be patriotic.

-MillsJROSS

[MrColossal]

MillsJRoss... The voice of a new generation...

at least the voice of me

[shbaz]

That was pretty much one of the main points of my essay, religion is supposed to be a zero factor in government, and legally, the constitution does not mention gays, so it can be assumed they have every right as a heterosexual person. Nevertheless, most people in the country are christian and therefore every freaking thing that seems against the bible is persecuted.

[Meowster]

I just had a fantasic conversation with a born again fundy christian.

First I stated my theory that since the bible never condemns gay MARRIAGES, Christians should not 'make their own decisions on behalf on god' and therefore Gay Marriages should be allowed. Also, that Gay Marriage should be allowed on the basis that although being gay is 'wrong', being married would at least conform to half of Gods requirements for a married couple...

He said it was illogical to say that being gay is wrong, and then allow them to marry.

I said that making a world in a couple of days is illogical by our logic, and that God doesn't have to work on the basis of logic. God works in Mysterious Ways. I've always wanted to throw that line back in the face of a christian who's trying to explain away crap from the bible with "God works in mysterious ways" and today I totally did it. I feel great. And it pissed him off just as much as it has pissed me off in the past.

He gave an example, "If I tell my daughter not to go outside, and she goes outside wearing her shoes, that does not make it better that she disobeyed me although she was safer while wearing her shoes."

I retaliated by saying, "If you said she was not allowed outside, and you told everybody else they were only allowed outside while wearing their shoes, and she went outside without wearing her shoes, she will have broken two of your orders. If she wears her shoes, she will have only broken one."

He said, "wrong is wrong." He countered by quoting a part from the bible that said "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" and saying he thought that made it clear he didn't want gay marriages.

I said that that quote clearly stated that gay people should be killed for the act of having gay sex.

He agreed that it was a good point; maybe they should.

I reminded him of the part of the bible where Jesus lets the sinful prostitute wash his feet, and he preaches that we should eat with sinners and forgive them because we are all born sinners according to the bible.

He said that doesn't mean you should make provisions for their sins.

And I said that since being wrong is wrong, and being sinful is being sinful, and Gay People should be put to death for their sin, and yet if wrong = wrong and sinful = sinful, and we're all sinful and sinful = wrong... then we should all be put to death, and logically then, having gay sex is the equivelent of being born, according to the bible...

He logged off.

Yufster 1, Idiot 0!!!


P.S. I don't believe that religion should have any ruling in the government of a country that claims to have religious freedom either. I am furious that Prez. Bush wants to write discrimination into the constitution, and furthermore, I am arguing mostly about the religious aspect of gay marriages because the main obstacle for them is the christian religion.

[nope!]

I didn't agree with you, Indiana Psyco.

The main problem isn't the Christian Religion... but the Church and all those creepy haters who seem to forget about the real basic  message from Jesus:

Love & Tolerance for Everyone.

[Nacho]

The real basic  message from Jesus:

Love & Tolerance for Everyone.

Do we need Jesus ,or a Messiah to spread that message?

[nope!]

Jesus failed, Bouddha failed...

Chris Jones, our Messiah is the only who can spread the message "Love, Tolerance & Pixel Hunting"  

[Nacho]

 

[shbaz]

Normally, I don't really like to post funny flashes because there are so many and they're so easy to find, but this is how ridiculous Bush looks in almost everything he says and does.

[DGMacphee]

For DG - The dinosaur issue doesn't come into the bible a lot because the bible is not what you would call a 'modern epic'. There is no description of pretty much anything environmental if you look at it. No one comments on the architechture of Pharo's empire, no one talks about the soft hay Jesus was born in (who knows - coulda been prickly as hell...) and no one cares about flying lizards unless they do something dramatic for the plot. Which they didn't. So they didn't get a mention.

That, however, doesn't deny their existence at all. I believe there were all sorts of freaky animals running around, and I don't know too many *normal* christians who don't. But I don't believe they predate the existance of the earth. When I said "dinosaurs that are supposedly 6 million years old" I was talking about it from a scientific point of view. I believe dinosaurs did NOT predate man. Well, maybe by a day or two, because God created animals before man, but not any longer.

A talking burning bush gets a mention, lions gets mentioned, but dinosaurs get left out somehow?

I don't buy your theory -- I think there would have been at least some mention.

Also, you say they existed at the time of creation, right?

So did they all die during the floods cause they couldn't fit on Noah's Ark or something?

Like Unicorns?

I don't know what it is, but I have a little trouble believing this theory too.

[Trapezoid]

That's the problem with any religion that holds the majority. They forget their place. The government should be secular and allow for any person to practice their religion as long as it harms or infringes on the rights of none.
How do you suppose Christians would feel if the Jews came along and tried to ban everyone else from eating non-Kosher food? Or if fundamentalist Muslims wanted all women of all religions to wear Burkas?

[Sylpher]

Just to interject in the dinosaur talk. A theory (I point out the word theory) that hasn't been brought up very often..

Let's play 'We know this is 100% true even if in acctualty we don't' for about 5 mins.

If the earth was infact created by a greater being and was not the product of a reaction such as a big bang theory or something.

As well if said God created the earth in the span of one day (Which you could argue up and down the length of that day in many ways but lets just not focus on time right now)

Now to the theory.. If God did create the earth he had to make it out of something. I do not believe God works in poofs. He has no magic tricks.. He doesn't say 'Alakasam' or some magic word and billions of pounds of dirt, earth, minerals and all the things our earth is made out of suddenly apeared. Just no.. I believe God is logical and works in all strickly scientificul ways proovable ways even if we are to meak to understand it.

That said.. all the materials on this earth had to come from somewhere. Where? I don't know.. but those materials could have been floating around for oooh I don't know.. 60 million years.. 80 million years.. 798 trillion years.. Who knows.

To put the theory bluntly.. Dinosaurs could have not ever stepped one foot on the earth. Fossils and other goodies came with the soil and minerals used to create it.

1. Never did I say I personally believe this theory I just 2. brought it up cause I think it is an interesting point of view.

Now that said.. DG and um.. Pete.. I think Pete lemme check..

Peter close enough. I respect your guys somewhat mature discussion regarding religon though I ask as a personal favor (And no way trying to be a mod or push anyone around) Ask it be moved into its own topic because this is going way off from the original topic.. As well I am sorry I helped push it farther.