Suggestion regarding this forum, read and tell your opinion.

[Andail]

As Farlander stated recently, there might actually be room for a beginners' critics lounge.

Why?
Lately people have tended to publish material seemingly not given more than two minutes of work. The lounge has become a tool that people use as a shortcut around personal experimenting, around the method of trial-and-error.

Important
I know that a lot of humanitarians are just about to post a reply with the word "elitism" in it. Just note that I am mainly getting at how little energy people seem put in their creations; not necessarily how skilled they are.
You can easily see by a picture if the artist did a sincere attempt to do something good, even if he/she isn't very good an artist.

Why, again?
I fear that the lack of seriousity discourages people who really want to learn and share their knowledge to even be associated to the critics lounge.

As the critics lounge is now the second biggest forum, it is well justified to be split.

The big question; who will decide which forum is appropriate?
Nobody. And there will be no moving of threads between the two forums.
Nobody will say "this piece does not belong here". However, the criticism will be much harsher.
Just like with the beginners' techincal, the beginners' forum will be a sanctuary from judgemental attitude. No piece of art can be too bad, simply put.

The regular forum will be for people who have put down a lot of time and energy in their creations, and who are truly interested in learning how to be better, who can accept sometimes harsh criticism and a demanding audience.

The regular forum is for people with a clear purpose and aim (the song is about to be recorded for a demo album, the essay is about to be published somewhere, the background is meant for a game in production) and who can recieve feedback in the perspective of this purpose; "that background is good, but doesn't go with the style of your game" etc.

The regular forum will provide more demanding criticism. There could be open discussions regarding techniques, genres and disciplines. There could be more tutor-based teaching, more long-term projects.
Eventually, it might attract more serious artists/musicians/writers, maybe even from outside.

The other forum will be for people with a more casual attitude; people who want to see if their creations can be used for anything at all; if a piece of art looks promising, and who don't care very much about lengthy discussions, preferably just a re-make by a better artist.
The feedback will be less extensive, less technical.
Preferably, your very first attempt in a certain field will end up here.

A second alternative
Another way of bringing more order into this would be to have one individual art-forum, and one for music/writing.
This will have two good effects:
1. More musicians and writers might be encouraged to share their creations
2. More room will be given to the art-threads, which will survive longer and thus be given more attention and perhaps more extensive discussions.

However, it will not at all effect the quaility of the publications.

To sum up:
My goal is to create a forum that simply gives a more serious impression. That's basically all.

Please tell me your opinions. I may be addressing a situation that nobody else has considered a problem, or a problem that can't be solved without somebody shouting elitism.

[m0ds]

The problem is, it's not what the piece of work is that decides whether it gets strong, detailed criticism - it's who's giving that constructive criticism.

Not too sure on a second forum, I'd have nothing against it, I reckon personally this one forum is fine. There's an ample mixture of different talents and it's by far easier checking each thread out. Having a beginners critics lounge might mean some people won't visit it, because they'd rather see the more detailed/technical critic lounge etc.

This forum (critics lounge, as is) seems to be fine in respects to keeping on topic and having good topics within. There never seems to be much trouble. Splitting the forum sounds more like a personal preference than a necessity to me.

But alas, I'll be the only one who thinks this :p

[Chicky]

i would like to see a seperate forum. but it may offend some people. And surley it would be kinda evil moving a tread to the begginers art forum?

-OSC

[Moox]

I like the idea, but do you think it would work?

[LGM]

And surley it would be kinda evil moving a tread to the begginers art forum?

But he said threads wouldn't be moved from one to the other.

I personally think this is a good idea.. If there's someone who spent a long time on a piece of work and posts it for critiscism, I think they deserve more attention away from the zillions of "Mah first BG!" posts that consist of dodgy lines, some PS standard textures, and Bryce and Poser primitives that clog the front page. Basic beginner stuff. (No offense to you Bryce and Poser users, I know some amazing stuff can be produced with them.)

I personally hate this, as several of my honest to goodness, brutally hard-worked on projects get pushed down onto the next page, where no-one ever looks, thus getting hardly any replies.

So I am most definitely in favor of a beginner's and regular critics longue. Bring it on, I say!

(Sorry if I seem a bit cranky, but I've been having some troubles today)

[Penguinx]

OSC, Andail stated that threads would not be moved. If they were, I could see where it would cause a ruckuss. I, personally, am not sure how I would fit in if the forums were split. I am not currently working on a game, but rather am working on the skills I would use in making a game.

I can see how it would be beneficial to weed out some of the underachieving the goes on, but I don't see a problem of epidemic proportion, either.

Rather, it seems as though the community itself does a satisfactory job of policing this problem themselves. Those that put a lot of effort into a drawing receive a lot of feedback. Those that do not have threads which tend to whither, die, and fade away.

My 2 cents.

[kaaZ]

I feel that the critics lounge is a pretty good forum as it is at the moment...Though I agree in some way with LGM...but on the other hand most posts seem to bleed to death as soon all the possible critique has been given and the pieces on which obviously lots of effort is put into seem to get all the attention they deserve...I myself tend to post more C&C than actualy posting a piece myself while others seem to do the opposite and post 3 rushed pieces in a few days....so as far as that goes it surely would be a good idea to split it up...or have more strict rules maybe ?
Just some thoughts...

edit:

I, personally, am not sure how I would fit in if the forums were split. I am not currently working on a game, but rather am working on the skills I would use in making a game.

Same here...not working on a game at the moment but feel C&C on my practicing is very usefull

Cheers!

kaaZ

[LGM]

Those that put a lot of effort into a drawing receive a lot of feedback. Those that do not have threads which tend to whither, die, and fade away.

I've put alot of effort into my Web Site, yet my post almost off the page w/out any new replies. Maybe I'm the only one this has happens to, but it's still quite annoying and unfair.

[Darth Mandarb]

I think, at first, the new CL would overflow with everybody posting in there because nobody is going to want to admit their work isn't up to that level just yet.

After awhile I think the beginners would tend to shy away from the 'Advanced CL' once they see how "truthful" the critics will be in there.  I personally prefer harsh critisism / honesty, it's how I improve.

Eventually it would even out.

A forum rule for the new lounge should be this:
1) No one line replies like, "Wow, that's really good!"

A Problem I can see ...
Some n00bies (I know I did when I first got here) get a feeling of 'Elitism' from some of the members who've been here longer.  This might heighten that feeling a little.

Having said that, I now say, "go for it."

If it doesn't work out, we could just go back to one Critics Lounge.

[LGM]

I just remembered,

pixelation.swoo.net has a similar system as the one Andail is suggesting.. Yes, I know their fourm is specifically for art, but why couldn't we do the same?

[Chicky]

And surley it would be kinda evil moving a tread to the begginers art forum?

But he said threads wouldn't be moved from one to the other.

(Sorry if I seem a bit cranky, but I've been having some troubles today)

ok soo im lazy? i couldnt be bothered to read the entire post, is that such a big deal, as to two people have to post about it...

mann i gotta take a chill pill

-OSC

[Fronzel]

As someone guilty of using bog standard Bryce shapes  , I'm not wholly sure on this one.  The easy crit of a beginners forum would be nice for people who are actually trying, but the harshness of a advanced group is definitely needed for any growth.  There do seem to be a few posts asking people to draw there stuff for them though, which isn't right in a C&C forum.

edit:  Possibly a designation for advanced users (like mod status, but harsh or advanced status) then their crit will carry more weight than normal.  I don't know. Just an idea. Splitting in general I think would lead to not seeing everything that is being made.

[Penguinx]

The biggest problem I see is, if I were a beginner, I would have to hope that some of the elite users were spending time monitoring threads in the beginners forum if I wanted to gain some advanced insight into how I might improve.

I know, for one, I would likely end up monitoring both forums, because I like to help with paint-overs and the like for newbies. That's kind of a pain (for me, not necessarily for the community as a whole).

[Nacho]

I agree with the idea... It has some problems, of course, one of the biggest I see is that some of the oldies/skilled/whatever-ye-wanna-call-them would not visit that forum... and it would be difficult to improve the skills of the newbies without "tutorization" of the "talented" <-- You know what I mean, don't take that as an offence...

But it musn't really be like that... Some of the artists could go to the "newbies tech forums" to show early art... Sometimes I know what to do to go on with a painting, but I don't know if go on following one way or another... I would really need the help of the "gurus" ( ), but I would feel strange introducing something in such an early state of developement... A lot of awesome art could be there just to help the artist to go on with a style or another... I'm sure you've been reluctant to make "polls" asking to go with a style or another... You'll be able to in this forum...

We could name this forum "first layer" or something... It would remove the "despective" feeling that some of you seem to see in it.

I think it's a good idea...

Actually... I feel odd when I must say "It's perfect, but..." about a first freehanded 6 colors backgrounds...  

With this differenciation I could really say "It's good!" (for a newbie level) or "You can do it better" (for a "pro").

[MrColossal]

Why not instead of creating a new forum [which would need new moderators and a few months of hanging around for the current users to get used to let alone the new people that come] we just renovate the current critics lounge

A point I've made many times is that I hate 1 word replies or emoticons with bug eyes as an entire reply to someone asking for crit. It serves no purpose then to clog up a thread. So instead of making a new forum, crack down on the current one.

Maybe convince CJ to find a way to add a character limit that has to be passed before you can post [not a great idea but even if it's around for a month and then taken away it will encourage better posting habits]

More moderating of current threads to get rid of emoticon posts and "That looks gud." posts.

If we renovate this forum into a... not really less friendly place, but a more honest crit forum, people would hopefully look over their art one more time before posting because they know they're going to get honest crit. Obviously people shouldn't insult in their crit but it shouldn't be too sugar coated either.

Personally I can usually tell when someone is making an honest attempt and if they maybe did something awkward I'm not going to tell them off, I can realize that they are trying and adjust my crit.

I think another thing I'd like to encourage people to do is talk about their own art first. If you post a background don't just say "Wat do u think?!" Tell us how long it took or what it's for or what you were trying to achieve [I notice a lot of the better threads that involve more crit usually have the artist explaining their actions and why they did such and such and what they think they need help on]

Eric

[strazer]

I agree with Eric's last paragraph.
It's imperative to know what the purpose of the pic is and what kind of mood the artist is going for. It helps point them in the right direction.

However, I think the CLs main problem is the increasing number of threads that it is hard to keep up sometimes.
I don't think it's necessary to start a thread for every new piece of art you draw. Maybe there should only be one thread allowed per project and/or artist.

[LGM]

That's actually a good idea. A thread for each artist/project. Kinda like what Neole did.. That would save alot of space.

And we should really clean all the old threads back at page 7 and beyond

[Ben]

1 thread/artist is a great idea. I also like Eric's character limit idea.. The Pixelation forum (which LGM mentioned) has a 100 character limit on their forums, and it seems to cut down a bit on stupid posts. At least it would encourage people to put some thought into what they say.. Or it would inspire them to write even more crap to get around the limit. Hmmmm

* Ben looks for thoughtfully stroking goattee smiley

[Evil]

Yeah, the character limit is a good idea. 100 characters isnt that hard to reach, so maybe 150? But personally, I dont see a major issue. Back when the gen gen section was at a high we were back into the second page with same day topics. I dont see a lot of that happening here. Maybe instead of a beginners art, why not a beginners section?

Beginners questions, art, games, progressed games? That would make thinks more organized by skill level and I dont think beginners will refuse. Beginners know they are beginners, and I dont think thats really discrimanation.

[auhsor]

Hmm, I can't decide which idea I like better. Sure, I agree that there is a problem with the Critics lounge, but having a beginners forum might discourage certain users. Like as people said before, the issue of n00bs and elitism.

I actually like the idea of a separate forum for art and music etc. That would split the topics into better catagories...

But now that I think of it more, I think having a beginners critics forum is a good idea. It just needs to be implemented properly.