Any americans watch the debate last night?

shbaz · Sat 09/10/2004 22:22:27

Junc -
Notice I didn't mention student loans though? I'm talking the endless cycles of debt that people let them selves get into whereis you have a manufactured home that people somehow end up owing $100,000 on. Credit cards as well, but not student loans. Student loans aren't exploitative if you look for the right ones. I got subsidized loans from the government and won't have any interest until graduation or if I drop out. I have one other loan at only 4% interest. All of which I'll be able to pay off with even a mediocre job once I graduate (or even if I don't).

In your present situation you're pretty much screwed though because student loans work against you once you make the decision to leave school. You can hardly pay off your loans and go to school at the same time, which is what you have to do once you leave and come back (so far as I understand). In that case, getting romantically involved like that isn't such a great idea and I've tried to avoid it until I can afford to. In a way though, that's depriving me of happiness, so I guess you lose either way. I'm personally for government paid higher education (if the students are worth it), I'm just against taxing success.

I don't know how anyone could read and understand Ayn Rand's better works (Atlas, Fountainhead) and think they're bunk, but I guess that's life. You either get it or you don't. She grew up in Russia during the revolution so she saw all of the people who really would have made a good difference get crushed into nothing as an "equal" firsthand.

Chris, I'd continue to argue but you're saying a lot of things I agree with anyway. Basically I think it's fine to have deductions for the poor (from a flat tax rate) but there should be limits to that, and the rich shouldn't be obligated to feed the country. They're people too.

I've seen far too many manufactured homes with a new boat in the rear, a hummer and satellite dish in front. All paid for courtesy of the US government and possibly drugs.

Ginny · Sat 09/10/2004 22:30:39

Quote from: shbazjinkens on Sat 09/10/2004 21:40:46
Look, even if they still make over a million, think about it.

A major fooball player (any kind, it's irrelevant) can make millions in a single year, but their useful time span is fairly small and the risks are huge for their health and well-being. Many will play for some years and retire for the rest of their life.

Now, are you telling me that even though they made this their life for decades, focusing on nothing else and risking so much, they don't deserve to be able to make all of the money they'll need for their entire life in a period of 3-10 years and then retire? Training/working for 12 hours a day every day, eating only the healthiest foods, getting injured, and then getting taxed 70% because they make too much?

I see no reason why someone shouldn't be able to give it their all and get paid for it. You probably scoff at entertainers, but the money they make will only allow them to live lavishly for as long as they're popular, most will need to spread those millions over their lifetime. High incomes are almost always involved with high risks or sacrifices.

And once again, if people will give it to them it's not their fault for getting it (if they're honest).

I don't scoff at entertainers, though it does seem ridiculous at times that big stars get paid 70 million per picture

. Basically, I'm not saying taxes should be that high (I don't think they were ever 70%), and there is nothing wrong with making a lot of money, I'm just saying that taxes affect people who earn more money less than they affect others. I don't know how the whole football system works, so I don't know how much they are taxed, and I see your point about the risk in their job and their need in the money to provide for themselves in the future in case of injury.

Quote
Furthermore, the government wastes more money than any rich person ever will. I trust myself to do the right thing with my money multitudes more than I'd trust any elected official.

Now with this I totally agree. Government corruption might be going on with anyone in office, since, as Darth said before, people don't tend to trust politicans. I remember when I was in a camp in summer, we were touring outside the building where the different minister's and their departments are, and someone made a crack about how you can tell who's corrupt and who isn't by the number of air conditioners they have hanging outside their office (some had 1, some 2, and some none). It was funny, even if unbased

.

Funny, I was never really that much into politics until this thread came along. A bit more reading around and I'll get straght A's (100's) in citizenship class next year)

.

Sharky - hehe, thanks for the note.

P.s. this is one of the most active threads I've seen. Heh, I guess I've found something I agree with poop about- this thread is getting very popular.

juncmodule · Sat 09/10/2004 22:40:23

Luckily, I have a financial hardship deferment on my loans. So, I have some time to get that money together. I still won't have to pay until after graduation so long as I get back in school soon.

I really think that student loans fall into the same category as other debt though. It's based on the same ideas. I agree with most of what you say if you remove the student loan factor. However, I think the mentality of many Americans is more like: "now that I'm so far in debt, what's a few more thousand dollars?" I know I've felt that way at times.

Something that may intrest you:

http://www.communitysolution.org/pdfs/NS2.pdf

It's about Cuba and how they are surviving with minimal help from the outside world. I think the section on hospitals is really interesting and drives Chris's point about doctors home.

I also think that people becoming doctors "just for the money" has a lot to do with massive malpractice suits. I think you are lot less likely to make a mistake at something if you don't have your heart into it, and just your wallet. Not that I believe that is the only reason for mad-crazy lawsuits, but I do think it contributes.

Your previous post about alternative fuels was really great by the way (not sure if I mentioned that or not). I found it entertaining that Bush mentioned Ethanol and Biodiesel in the debate. If I'm not mistaken didn't Bush push for Hydrogen research that involved refining Hydrogen with Petroleum, but not other, cleaner means? Being Captain Cowboy Oil Man I highly doubt that he is intrested in alternative fuels in any way that could solve our "energy crisis".

later,
-junc

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot.

Quotegetting romantically involved like that isn't such a great idea and I've tried to avoid it until I can afford to

You are SOOOOO screwed buddy. Look for love, be desperate, then you will never find it. Avoid it, run from it and hide, and it will find you. Love falls onto people, people don't fall in love.

TerranRich · Sat 09/10/2004 23:09:47

Oh yeah, well tell that to...me! I've been lonely for about a year and a half now.

But all kidding aside, there have been a LOT of posts since I went to sleep and then to work this morning. I was reading some of poop's posts and the replies to them, to my friend Vicky, and she was laughing hysterically along with me. Especially when poop said:

QuoteThe future of the world is republicans. Some call us mean capitalistic scumbags, I call us the leaders of tomorrow.

Can I quote that, poop? Please? Pretty pretty please???

As for the Pledge of Allegience, every non-American that has replied to that (everybody, really) makes the most sense I have ever heard. It's pointless, ridiculous, a hollow showing of patriotism and "loyalty" and the "God" part has no place. Thank you.

Also, regarding poop "leaving" the thread... which great AGSer was it that said "Goodbye! Don't come back until you've hit puberty!"

And I somehow feel like going off on poop like Bender did on Claire, showing mock-pity at her "tough" life being rich, right after the pot-smoking scene.

shbaz · Sun 10/10/2004 01:44:21

Quote from: juncmodule on Sat 09/10/2004 22:40:23
Your previous post about alternative fuels was really great by the way (not sure if I mentioned that or not). I found it entertaining that Bush mentioned Ethanol and Biodiesel in the debate. If I'm not mistaken didn't Bush push for Hydrogen research that involved refining Hydrogen with Petroleum, but not other, cleaner means? Being Captain Cowboy Oil Man I highly doubt that he is intrested in alternative fuels in any way that could solve our "energy crisis".

He didn't mention it in the first debate.. I haven't watched the second yet, because I was in my night class and couldn't.

I typed all of that out because someone said something about it being impossible for Kerry to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. It isn't, because of alternative fuels. It's just not widely known and everyone is stuck on hydrogen. Hydrogen has too many problems to be feasible in ten years, while ethanol and biodiesel are fairly widespread now and with some industrial tooling-up we'd be using it instead (and because the fuel is so clean, engines and the oil inside would last a lot longer). It's a major part of what I intend to accomplish as an engineer, among other things.

Thanks for that link, that's really interesting. As much as the writer likes it, I'm rather attached to my machines and so my goal is to find a different renewable means to power them rather than get rid of them. You might be interested in Journey to forever because that site is largely dedicated to ways to help 3rd world countries.

QuoteLuckily, I have a financial hardship deferment on my loans. So, I have some time to get that money together. I still won't have to pay until after graduation so long as I get back in school soon.

I really think that student loans fall into the same category as other debt though. It's based on the same ideas. I agree with most of what you say if you remove the student loan factor. However, I think the mentality of many Americans is more like: "now that I'm so far in debt, what's a few more thousand dollars?" I know I've felt that way at times.

Good to know. The only reason I regard student loans as different is because they are intended to be easily paid back.. they have low interest rates, you can often get a subsidized loan and it won't gain interest until graduation, and you can consolodate them all when you graduate so that you won't be paying several different lenders. On the other hand, the bad loans will be geared toward extending your debt as long as possible in order to accumulate the most interest. Those TV ads for auto loans with no credit check required are a good example.

Renal Shutdown · Sun 10/10/2004 04:02:13

Shbaz, this one's just for you.

In England, there once was a football (soccer) player named Gordon Ramsey. Most people say he's the greatest goal keeper we ever had. He trained hard, and devoted his life to football. Then, one day, he got old and retired from the game.

Sure, he made money, but, not as much as today's players. So what did he do? Scrimp and save ever penny that he could so he could never work again? No. He packed his bags, went to France and learnt how to cook. It took him a few years, but now? Now he's a "celebrity chef", who owns restaurants, and quite regularly appears on tv.

Then, there's an olympic runner called Steve Ovett. He won a gold medal in the eighties, I think. But no one saw him for years after that. Did he retire and live off what money he had from sponsorships and stuff? No. This year, the BBC were interviewing people in Athens, and low and behold who should turn up? Yep, good ol' Steve. "Where have you been?" they asked him. "I've been around all the time, just not on the BBC," he replied. Truth is, he'd been commentating for some small, obscure tv or radio station for years. He'd made enough money from this to live his life quite happily.

My point is, the folks earning fortunes from sport don't get to the end of their sporting career and have to think "Crap. Now what do I do?". They're celebrities for starters, so they have jobs available in the media as a first option. If that fails, they usually retire earlier enough in their lives to go on to a different career. They even have enough money to buy property and live off of the rent.

Hell, there's one guy who used to be a singer, and now he sells burgers from a van at a seaside. Another singer bought a pig farm. The 80's pop sensation, Kim Wilde, is now presents a gardening program.

Life doesn't just stop when you finish one job or career. It finishes when you've had enough of working. If they just want to quit work altogether after a few years, then they seem pretty lazy people, which is surprising for an athelete.

DGMacphee · Sun 10/10/2004 04:41:38

Quote from: poop743 on Sat 09/10/2004 20:40:57
And with that I leave this thread forever. Also, I really am DGmcaphee.............or am I?

Quote from: Andail on Sat 09/10/2004 20:44:10
If you are DG, I said it before you in the critics lounge

If not, may God have mercy on you, poor child

Well, Esseb, looks like I owe you a drink next time you come to Australia.

Andail, I'm not poop. Not even I could come with long ramblings that are this mindbendingly crazy. And I don't have enough time in my day to pretend to be poop.

Besides, I was asleep when poop did his last few replies.

shbaz · Sun 10/10/2004 04:50:58

Quote from: Iqu on Sun 10/10/2004 04:02:13
Life doesn't just stop when you finish one job or career. It finishes when you've had enough of working. If they just want to quit work altogether after a few years, then they seem pretty lazy people, which is surprising for an athelete.

I don't think anyone who quit working after being an athelete should be considered lazy. It's not like retirement requires you to sit in your house all day on a couch. They could be travelling to see the world, mountain climbing, spending more time with their kids, or whatever suits their personality.

Giving examples is kind of pointless, of course some people are going to want to keep working. My point isn't that they all do, but that they've earned the right and taking away their money just because they make a lot for a few years is taking away the reward they are entitled to for all of the hard work they already went through. In other words, that would be punishing them for their success.

Moox · Sun 10/10/2004 04:59:06

There are no polar bears in Alaska...

shbaz · Sun 10/10/2004 05:29:56

Quote from: LostTraveler on Sun 10/10/2004 04:59:06
There are no polar bears in Alaska...

You know, a quick google would keep you from looking so clueless, unless they're giving fake polar bear viewing tours in Alaska to ignorant tourists.

Pesty · Sun 10/10/2004 05:37:41

Quote from: shbazjinkens on Sun 10/10/2004 05:29:56
Quote from: LostTraveler on Sun 10/10/2004 04:59:06
There are no polar bears in Alaska...

You know, a quick google would keep you from looking so clueless, unless they're giving fake polar bear viewing tours in Alaska to ignorant tourists.

This has nothing to do with the debates, this is just a great story. My anthropology teacher, Alan, used to work in Alaska, cataloging artifacts found while they were working on the pipeline. The grandmother of one of his informants had been out walking along the coast and was attacked by a polar bear. This woman was in her 90s, but she obviously wasn't willing to go just yet. So she punched the polar bear in the mouth. Her mitten got stuck in the bear's throat, suffocating it. She returned back to the village and told everyone about it. Nobody believed her, so she led them to the polar bear's body. As proof, she reached into the bear's throat, pulled her mitten out and put it back on. She was from there on a hero of the village and the main character in a wonderful story.

I thought you'd all enjoy that break away from the debating in this thread. You can now go back to complaining to each other.

Moox · Sun 10/10/2004 05:38:42

Its all a hoax! Its just DG in a bear suit!

Na, I knew there where polar bears in Alaska, watched a documentry in biology on them. I just said that to change the subject from anti poo rants to pick on lost!

DGMacphee · Sun 10/10/2004 14:58:53

Quote from: LostTraveler on Sun 10/10/2004 05:38:42
Its all a hoax! Its just DG in a bear suit!

Esseb, I owe you another drink. You are quite a soothsayer.

Anarcho · Sun 10/10/2004 16:44:46

Poop, I'm happy that you can still view America as the land of opportunity from within your fancy house, in your gated community, while going to a fancy private school.Ã,Â I'm sure it's a real struggle to get out of your finely appointed bed in the morning, knowing that those damn hippies want to take it all away from you!Ã,Â I feel so bad for you!Ã,Â You certainly are the victim in this situation.

No, wait...I hope you lose it all someday.Ã,Â I hope you end up having to go to an underfunded public school system that lost its accredidation.Ã,Â I hope your single mom has to work three jobs to put food on the table (you have a single mom in this scenario).Ã,Â I hope you never have the opportunity or money to go to college.Ã,Â I hope you live in a depressed town where your only employment opportunities will be in the form of a paper hat and golden-arches adorned apron.Ã,Â Then I wonder if you'll still view America as the land of opportunity.

Sure, anybody can work hard, fund themselves to go to school (like me with six digit debt), and then maybe find some kind of high-paying job depending upon their major.Ã,Â But you see, most people in this country have SEVERE obstacles in there way...obstacles that you will never have to face.Ã,Â Obstacles like poverty, poor educational opportunities, no health care, high unemployment, underemployment.Ã,Â No, barring your parents getting cancer and you being a complete idiot, you're on the fast track to success.

So in summation, I'm sure you're going to keep thinking that this is a perfect world without problems where anyone can just strike it rich, but please observe this tiny request: don't bitch to the rest of us about how your poor daddy has to pay taxes. It's just insulting.Ã,Â Ã,Â Ã,Â

-Logan

And do you seriously think everybody has 200k to spend on a second house?Ã,Â Are you fucking nuts?Ã,Â You must think the rest of the world consists of idiots who just don't properly invest.Ã,Â Dumbass, most people in this country live paycheck to paycheck.Ã,Â You see, only the rich actually have the money to get richer.Ã,Â Ã,Â

Sorry Andail, I tried not to respond to all this, but I couldn't resist.

poop743 · Sun 10/10/2004 22:26:56

I have a few things to clear up. I'm only 13 and I'm not an idiot. My school may be private but yuou still need to be a really good student to get in, and I'm ranked 2nd in my class of 80 for grades.

I have heard too much about communism. Communism destroys motivation to succeed. Let u ssay that ina fictional community, half th epeople make 1 dollar a year and the other half make 3 dollars a year. Except th egovernement rearranges it so that everyone makes 2 dollars a year. Suddenly, the people making 3 dollars stop working really hard because they figure no matter what they do, they make 2 dollars. The people making 1 dollar stop working altogether, figuring the rich people can take care of them. Suddenly there is no money to go around.

Communism doesnt work. The only place where communism might work is in a small isolated village.

Stop dissing America. If we have so many problems, then why are we the most powerful country in the world? The average american worker makes 38,000 dollars a year. Thats not bad.

My parents dont make as much as you think. Last year my dad made 750k before taxes and business expenses. We only got 275k worth of cash to spend, because he put 200k into his offices and other investments.

John Kerry isnt fit to run a country. He has a 20 year history of bad choices. I admit that Bush is a little shady, but a country doesnt get as powerful as america without being a little shady.

It is a known fact that the higher up a hill you climb, the farther you fall when you trip. America is at the top of its hill. I only hope that it doesn't trip.

dasjoe · Sun 10/10/2004 22:44:43

then you're hoping that bush isn't re-elected..

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sun 10/10/2004 22:45:14

The bigger the size, the louder the fall. Whatever education you've been given, it's unworthy opf what SHOULD, indeed, have been a great nation.

QuoteI have a few things to clear up. I'm only 13 and I'm not an idiot. My school may be private but yuou still need to be a really good student to get in, and I'm ranked 2nd in my class of 80 for grades.

Now, this isn't personal, but of course you'll take it personally, and I would, too, but as you can probably imagine, after we learned how much your parents make we can reasonably doubt how much of a good student you had tyo be, and how much of a good student came in dollar bills. Nothing personal - we have our own share here in Portugal, namely Os Salesianos. And I'm not saying it's the case with you, just that... well, with all that you've said so far, we WILL doubt it. Sorry.

QuoteI have heard too much about communism. Communism destroys motivation to succeed. Let you ssay that ina fictional community, half th epeople make 1 dollar a year and the other half make 3 dollars a year. Except th egovernement rearranges it so that everyone makes 2 dollars a year. Suddenly, the people making 3 dollars stop working really hard because they figure no matter what they do, they make 2 dollars. The people making 1 dollar stop working altogether, figuring the rich people can take care of them. Suddenly there is no money to go around.

Communism doesnt work. The only place where communism might work is in a small isolated village.

Neither does Capitalism, because what happens is what has happened to AMerica - the rich shit on the poor. I've been reading up on some awful stories on Michael Moore's "Dude, Where's My Country?", stuff like Dead Peasants Insurance. That could NEVER happen in Communism. Not to say Communism's better, but all manners of government are, essencially, utopical, because the human being lusts for power and riches and WILL screw everyone else up.

QuoteStop dissing America. If we have so many problems, then why are we the most powerful country in the world?

And why is your name synonimous with violence, racial and social crimes, and recently near genocide? We have a saying: "The BERTRAND BOOKSTORE is older than America!" This is extremely depreciative, and it's our general opinion of you. Are you powerful? Sure you are, in military terms. But how did you get that way? Man, give me Europe any time. I think I'd feel safer with Salazar than with Bush! I mean, imagine if Bush started bombing us because "he wanted us to get rid of Salazar?" (Salazar was our great dictator, by the way) To heel with your power, we'd say, just leave us alone and use your brains instead of your brawn!

QuoteMy parents dont make as much as you think. Last year my dad made 750k before taxes and business expenses. We only got 275k worth of cash to spend, because he put 200k into his offices and other investments.

This is just none of my business.

Quotea country doesnt get as powerful as america without being a little shady.

And you think that's GOOD? You think being shady in a country that was supposed to be a hail to democracy is GOOD?

EDIT - I apologize for any American people I offend, but as far as I know, this IS how the rest of the world - or at least Europe, or, let's be fair, at least Portugal, that one I CAN speak of with 100% certainty - views America: as a great dream that got ruined along the way, and everyone's sorry for it.

Also, if I said anything untrue or out of turn, please point it out and forgive me - like I keep saying, politics aren't my cup of tea, and I may have misunderstood something.

shbaz · Mon 11/10/2004 00:43:12

Except for several presidents along the way, America doesn't have that bad of a reputation. Especially when you compare it to other world powers, and consider how well the people inside get along. The pursuit of happiness isn't lost except for a minority.

Until the current president, I never heard so much America-bashing. I don't think we're ruined, just through a bad spell because of inadequate leadership.

Dave Gilbert · Mon 11/10/2004 02:28:57

Gosh, I never imagined things would turn out this way when I started this thread!

I had a very interesting conversation with a french guy a few weeks ago.Ã,Â I'd like to hear other europeans' takes on it.Ã,Â

He pointed out to me that you never see a French flag prominently on display anywhere, except perhaps on government buildings.Ã,Â "We are not just France," he said. "We are also EUROPE."Ã,Â He went on to say that the french remember all-too-well what excessive patriotism and isolationism did to Europe in the early part of the 20th century, and that America was heading down the same road.Ã,Â

I never thought about it that way, and it's an interesting point.Ã,Â America is extremely patriotic.Ã,Â We are spoon fed patriotism all our lives.Ã,Â When I was a kid, I believed all of it.Ã,Â I honestly believed that attacking another country because they didn't think like us was the right thing to do.Ã,Â The ideal of the rough-and-tough cowboy, laying down the law and enforcing order, resonates very strongly with Americans.Ã,Â As I got older, wiser, and more experienced, I realized how juvinile and stupid that image really was.Ã,Â If anything, it's extraordinarily arrogant.

Case in point.Ã,Â Some years ago, I visited England.Ã,Â While there I asked people what they thought of the whole Bill Clinton impeachment thing.Ã,Â The responses I got varied from shrugs to rolled eyes to indifferent laughter.Ã,Â It was a joke to most people.Ã,Â A very funny, ridiculous joke.Ã,Â To the rest of the world, we were a laughing stock.Ã,Â If this experience taught me anything, it was this one life-altering fact: there is a whole big world beyond America's borders, and they don't think we are as important as we believe we are.

America is a baby compared to the rest of the world.Ã,Â A very rich, spoiled and arrogant baby.Ã,Â I love living here, but I really hope it grows up sooner than later.

shbaz · Mon 11/10/2004 02:44:25

I thought isolationists didn't participate in any foreign affairs, including war?