A question for the musically talented...

Evil · Tue 12/10/2004 02:53:20

I was hoping to post this some other time when the forums wern't as busy, but I've been ancy. The whole thing turned into more of a story about myself, rather then a question on musical theroy. Sorry about typos.

I've been playing guitar for more then a year now. I own 2 acoustics and an electric. I can play a bit of clarinet and flute and can read music for the most part. I play my guitars about 3 hours a day, writing licks, riffs, and progressions, some of which are pretty good.

Recently, I've been trying to get into a band. My singing voice is ok.
Sadly no one is really as into a band as I am. I've grown up with a huge variety of music. From N*SYNC to Elvis. Black Sabbath to Lyle
Lovett. Everyone in my family listens to something different and we all have a great feel for other and new types of music. I'd join pretty much any band if they were serious.

My choice of action has been failing. If a band has formed they don't really need a guitarist or vocalist. I've come to realize that I need to form my own band. I can pick whatever sound I'd like and chose who helps and who doesn't. But I can't just jump in and grab some people.

So, I've been trying to write some music myself, that I can do some solo gigs with, hopefully meeting some people along the way. My first "official" song I wrote for my English class. I had to write some poetry so I decided to kill two birds and brought in my guitar. My teacher loved it along with my class. People in her other classes said that she couldn't stop talking about it. One girl in my class who is very popular said she loved it and wanted me to make her a cd of some of my stuff. I regretfully said that I didn't have anything else finished.

I toyed with the song and decided to record it. I listened to it and it sounded awful. The progression was repetitive. The lyrics were terrible. But the song had serious meaning to me. I don't think that any other previous event in my life could make a better song. I realize I'm my own worst critic, but sometimes that's a good thing.

So I started reviewing popular music. Often listening to the song over and over again for hours trying to find out what makes it tick. Slowing and speeding the song up, audio filters, different octaves and tones.
I've dissected several songs from different bands, all of them popular, with basic instruments (i.e.: guitar, bass, drums, and sometimes keys). I haven't yet looked at rap and the ever-popular "Bump 'n' Grind" music, with all of it's computer effect generations. There are several things I've found.

Good, popular songs have simple yet meaningful lyrics and the music accents the lyrics, giving them attitude.

Good lyrics are straightforward, yet often metaphorical. Everyone can
Relate to them somehow in their lives. The lyrics themselves are just words, but when music is added behind them, they give them a sense of mood and opinion.

Popular songs also have a "good" part. The song itself is ok, but there's that one part that everyone loves that people wait for when listening to the song, keeping them listening. Lets look at a popular song and dissect it.

Lets look at Maroon Five's "She Will Be Loved".

Amazon.com conceders them a "fuse of R&B and rock" and compares them to
Stevie Wonder and Motown. Their smooth bass lines, catchy tunes and unique vocals make them very popular. But is that all? Those who have listened to this band would agree, they wouldn't sound good with lyrics such as Vanilla Ice's "Ice Ice Baby" or maybe Metalica's "Enter Sandman". The lyrics really make any good band.

"She Will Be Loved" has very simple lyrics. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry could have wrote this if they put their mind to it, even though it wouldn't have the same meaning. Everyone can relate to them, or relate them to someone else.

Most people would agree that their favorite part is the chorus and pre-chorus (0:45 - 1:15), and would be happy enough if the entire song was just that. Yet everyone seems to think the bridge is the worst part.
The composition of this song however keeps you listening.

The intro is very relaxing, seemingly making you to lazy to change the song. The verse is the same way, however the mood doesn't last long. At
0:28 of the song, a guitar comes in and foreshadows what is to come in the rest of the song, giving it a more upbeat attitude. And at 0:47 that time comes and gives you a great, smooth beat to dance to or just sit and listen to. As the upbeat section fades to an end (1:17), it brings you back to that foreshadowing section again, keeping you listening once more for the chorus. Then the anticipation trickery comes out. At 1:34, the vocals make you expect that funky rhythm to come back, but nope. More games to keep you listening till 1:53 comes around. This extended chorus brings you to that nirvana of happiness only to shatter it with a bridge at 2:33, and another disappointment at 2:53 when they make you expect another chorus, but give you another verse instead. But at 3:04 that trickery comes back, making you think the song is over, but finishes with a whopping chorus exceeding a minute, and brings you down from that high with a slow fadeout.

I bet that never crossed your mind when listening, did it? Well, it didn't cross mine either. When looking back on what I've written, it doesn't even compare. How do people write such great music, and plan such composition?

I've noticed that many people here have bands, and I wanted to know, how do you go about writing music? Do you have anything you think is amazing and would like to share? Maybe, if I get the balls to do it, I'll post some of my music. Kick up some dust, and lets get musical.

shbaz · Tue 12/10/2004 03:09:33

I've played guitar for nearly five years now and I first started singing four years ago. I'm still terrible at singing, I just don't have the voice for it. I've tried to accomodate by choosing a more forgiving style (rock allows for it pretty well, as well as goofy stuff like Ben Folds).

My approach to guitar has been fairly unique.. I played in a punk cover group for a couple of years and never had any satisfaction from it so I decided to make my own style. Since I couldn't find a decent bassist for my second group, I tried to cover for that. I was playing in a two-man group with a drummer and me. The only way around not having a bassist is to create riffs that keep you from noticing that there even should be one. I did it by playing bar chords and modifying them with my pinky and ring fingers. Often I could make it sound like as many as three guitars were playing, albeit simple riffs. This failed any time I wanted to solo, so the style was pretty monotonous as I think solos are an important break in songs.

Nowadays I've moved to a blues/rock fusion, it allows me to keep lyrics short and to the point (so my singing voice is almost irrelevant) and my guitar riffs the same. Creating melodic riffs is pretty difficult.. it just comes to me every now and then and I go with it. There's no easy way to come up with a good song but to play around with a lot of unfamiliar chords and scales until you come up with something interesting, or just mess around a lot and pick out the good stuff from the massive amount of crap you'll create.

I had similar experiences with people at school overglorifying what our bands did.. they were really just astounded that anyone they knew could play musical instruments and write songs on their own, so they didn't notice how crappy it was. I don't know where you live, but where I grew up few people had ever seen a live band that wasn't playing western cover songs. You'll see the same thing at a lot of local scenes that thrive mostly on indy pride rather than music quality. But hey, milk that cow for as much as it's worth while you can.

Sylpher · Tue 12/10/2004 03:11:47

You are taking your first steps on a long road. I could make a long and drawn out post about my very exstensive opinions on music, song writing and song deconstruction but I think I will settle with a small piece of advice that was given to me by a very wise man.

1. Find out exactly what you want to accomplish with music and practice until you get there. Hopefully you never will.

An amazing source for inspiration I would say is Fugazi's DVD Instrument. Breaks down a bit of the bands philosophy and feelings on the music industry and song writing and people in general.

Goldmund · Tue 12/10/2004 03:34:47

I can't think of a bridge which I wouldn't consider boring and uninspired. I hate bridges, really. They're like saying "nice to meet you, how are you?" to a distant relative - this is obligatory, yet void of essence and meaning.

Gregjazz · Tue 12/10/2004 04:19:44

Hmmm, I could help you out with composing melodies and chord progressions. Making that kind of simple pop/rock hits is one of my specialties -- and favorites. Can't really help you out with lyrics, though. If you want, PM me and I could help you out with music, and maybe you could share with me what you know about lyric-writing.

Moox · Tue 12/10/2004 04:29:05

I think your problem is that your thinking too much. Just let it flow, When you have a good rif a good drum beat will come to you, then a good backup guitar etc....

Gregjazz · Tue 12/10/2004 04:55:51

The best is to do both thinking and letting-flow. You need both.

rtf · Tue 12/10/2004 05:10:31

I've been playing guitar for about 6 years, and I've been (trying) to sing for most of them. I really like jazz. I started out learning folk songs, then basic rock stuff, then I got in to classic rock, funk, flamenco, fusion, and now I'm getting pretty serious about playing jazz guitar in a more public setting.

Bridges:
There's a song by Al DiMeola called "Elegant Gypsy" (Off the album of the same name). It's an awesome song, but the part that seems to really stand out for me is the bridge at about 4:13. The reason I like it so much is that the notes that the keys are playing gives the section the impression that it's "floating in the air". That's what I think of when I hear it.
(It won't upload for some reason, so try to find it on some file-sharing thingy).

When I write a song, I usually just play random stuff until I find something that sounds good, and I build off of it.

Heh, maybe this thread will turn into a "Post some music here" thread at some point.

Blackthorne · Tue 12/10/2004 08:42:45

I've been playing guitar for close to (gulp) 15 years.

One thing I find is hard for me is not writing music, but getting lyrics out.
I had this discussion with my girlfriend, and I tried to explain that music is pretty much a language for me; I can convey through melody, harmony, arrangement and nuance whatever I want to. I can express, like I would with words. However, finding WORDS to place over that stymies me. It's like, to me, hearing two people speaking simultaneously, while one is speaking in English, and the other is speaking in French. I can't seperate them at times, so grafting words on top of music is a chore for me.

So, just work hard at it, and go with what you like. Try to remember how you are really feeling as you play, and if you're crafty, put the words out.

Bt

juncmodule · Tue 12/10/2004 13:53:48

Fantastic post Evil. I became interested in that "pop formula" a while back and had plans to remix an Avril Lavigne album. By remixing of course I mean tearing apart and glitching back together in the most noise infested way possible

I will have to pick that project back up sometime and perhaps add your information into it.

As far as music creation goes I can only offer the advice of play what makes you happy. If that's the pop song formula, then cool. Personally though, I don't understand the point. I mean, if you want to play songs with that awesome pop hook so that it will make you famous, then I promise you, YOU WILL FAIL. Both as a musician and songwriter. However if you find making that music interesting and inspiring then go for it. As an experimental musician of course I never "write" songs. I usually start with a noise, melody, or sample and build from there. Once I reach a point of 4 to 6 minutes I stop. I record the entire song as a wave file, dump it into soundforge, remaster it for CD, and that's it. One take, take it or leave it. This is the process I find interesting and inspiring though. All in all just make sure you are having fun or your audience will never be doing the same.

later,
-junc

Rincewind · Tue 12/10/2004 13:59:43

Well, I really don't feel like I can contribute that much to this whole thing, me being a vocalist and pretty worthless at any musical contribution (With perhaps the exception of a bit of drumming here and there, but I don't think that counts...), and the few times I do try to play any instrument, it's usually just by myself, and for my own amusement... But I do write a lot of lyrics and stuff. It always seems to come easily to me.Ã,Â

Personally, the thing I think of most today when I write stuff is first of all to have a good vocal melody before even writing anything. Of course, it's not neccesary, but it does help a lot if you have something good to "hold on to" while thinking out the words. Just writing down the words before having a melody can also work, but at least in my experience, it's been a lot easier to do it in the first way.
Sometimes I can get out some lyrics that I'm really satisfied with just by improvising to an already excisting song, than I get from sitting down for hours and trying to think of something that sounds absolutely "right"....
I do have a hard time to think of music for a lyric that I have already written, though. I guess that comes from not being a musician, I guess...

Blade · Tue 12/10/2004 18:27:42

Well, musicians mostly use some time to make their songs - write lyrics, then music, then change lyrics a little for the music, then the band assembles and other musicians tune to the melody, changing some parts...
But there are many eamples where songs were created on instant. The only one I can think of now is "Every Breath You Take" by The Police - written in half an hour. BTW it's my favourite song and Sting is my favourite musician

BorisZ · Wed 13/10/2004 18:50:04

Quote from: releasethefrogs on Tue 12/10/2004 05:10:31
Ã,Â Heh, maybe this thread will turn into a "Post some music here" thread at some point.

Why don't we do it?
I'll post some of my music as soon as I upload them.

Evil · Wed 13/10/2004 23:23:34

Thats kind of what I was going for. Post some music, talk about your inspiration, how you wrote it and in what order. Different musical theroies involved and why.

Thanks for all of the posts. I, actually, write my music first. That way I can tell if I am copying another song. Heh, usually I can just start signing and lyrics come out.

Geoffkhan: I might have to take you up on that.