A little research Zak!

[rozojc]

Hey everybody, just thought I'd post this link (from Lucasfans boards) here in case you're interested in reading it. It's basically my personal complaint about "New Adventures of Zak McKracken"'s negative and inaccurate information of my country. So, in case you're interested and/or want to state feedback:
http://mmforums.gamersepitome.net/viewtopic.php?t=552

I suppose it's in this board as it is adventure related...

[MrColossal]

It's just a game...

So what? If you want to be offended by someone making a game then you're going to have a hard life, in my opinion.

Colombia doesn't have a jungle, that's really offensive to you?

Seriously, it's just a game. It's not that important.

Also: Has anyone ever been kidnapped in Bogota? If so then is it really that much of a stretch for someone to be kidnapped in a fake pretend game?

There are tons and tons and tons of games where people get kidnapped in the United States, it's not a sleight against the United States, it's just a plot point.

[Sylpher]

Inaccurate and mildly annoying? Perhaps...

Politically offensive and worth of a calling to arms? Um... woah.

[rozojc]

It's just a game...

So what? If you want to be offended by someone making a game then you're going to have a hard life, in my opinion.

Colombia doesn't have a jungle, that's really offensive to you?

Seriously, it's just a game. It's not that important.

Also: Has anyone ever been kidnapped in Bogota? If so then is it really that much of a stretch for someone to be kidnapped in a fake pretend game?

There are tons and tons and tons of games where people get kidnapped in the United States, it's not a sleight against the United States, it's just a plot point.

I agree with what you say about the jungle. Although I do think that their level of inaccuracy in that is something that they could have avoided by making a 10 minute (instead of 5 minute) research in Google. Regarding how it's just a game and it should not be offensive about how they kidnap her in Bogotá, I would say the following:

I do agree that under an objective point of view it's not really offensive. Thing is that I do think that the decition of where they took the kidnapped girl was not really that objective; in other words, it sounds like at some point in game design they thought "Ok, let's think of international terrorists or the like. I know, they kidnap her and take her to Columbia! Let's search in Google to see what the capital of Columbia is, so that we can put a real name to the city"....

Nevertheless, I do agree that I can get touchy about that, it's just that as a Colombian I have heard many people from different places say things like "Oh, you're from Colombia, you're not a terrorist, are you?", and in great part it's because our country has become a great "example" for stupid movies,  computer games (Zak's not the first one in which I've seen inaccuracies), etc..

Anyway, I guess all I'm trying to say is people should do proper research when making scenes (be it movies, games or whatever) about places they don't know...

Finally, it's not only that; if I make a game where the bad guy is (for example) an international terrorist, it does matter which nationality I give him. If he's from Irak, probably not too many people in Irak (as in common people from Irak) will just think of it as "It's a movie" and not take any offense, but if it's a lunatic from say "Germany" there would probably be less chances that people take it the wrong way... It's probably difficult to fully  understand for people who are not from countries that have served as "the bad guys" in movies, games, news and conversations worldwide, but the fact that they chose Colombia as the place where they took her once kidnapped does make a slight difference.

Again, I know I'm touchy about this, but I think it's normal to be touchy about something that has been "rubbed on your face" worldwide many times. And I don't really want to start an issue here, I just wanted to "state my point" and ask people to do better research when talking about places they don't know.

[MrColossal]

"the fact that they chose Colombia as the place where they took her once kidnapped does make a slight difference."

In a way, I don't think it makes a difference at all where they took her. It matters to the story and their plot yes but to anything else? I doubt they were trying to make a political commentary...

If they took her to Detroit or Harlem and were militant black people would you find that offensive or is it only because it's your country?

If they took her to the middle of Sweden people could be offended saying "Hey! Swedes aren't terrorists! Don't portray us as such!" and then we get into the problem of not being able to make anyone the bad guy for fear of hurting someone's feelings.

All of the Police Quest games [to my knowledge] take place in the United States and I don't think a single person has ever had a problem with the setting in relation to the content. I certainly don't care that murder and serial killing and drunk driving and bike gangs and drug deals are portrayed in a game set in the US because that stuff happens. And even if it didn't it's just a game.

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion or a feeling but posting it in such a way... I dunno, wouldn't it have been better to contact the dev team who made the game specifically and ask them some questions before assuming all of this?

If your post was about research and how important it can be to making a game, I agree, but it just comes off as you being angry about the game.

As far as not wanting to start an issue: You might want to change the thread title or something, that isn't really not starting an issue, the same on the zak boards, you don't like how they made their game, how are they going to like you joining their forums to basically call them stupid and bad people?

[rozojc]

"the fact that they chose Colombia as the place where they took her once kidnapped does make a slight difference."

In a way, I don't think it makes a difference at all where they took her. It matters to the story and their plot yes but to anything else? I doubt they were trying to make a political commentary...

If they took her to Detroit or Harlem and were militant black people would you find that offensive or is it only because it's your country?

If they took her to the middle of Sweden people could be offended saying "Hey! Swedes aren't terrorists! Don't portray us as such!" and then we get into the problem of not being able to make anyone the bad guy for fear of hurting someone's feelings.

All of the Police Quest games [to my knowledge] take place in the United States and I don't think a single person has ever had a problem with the setting in relation to the content. I certainly don't care that murder and serial killing and drunk driving and bike gangs and drug deals are portrayed in a game set in the US because that stuff happens. And even if it didn't it's just a game.

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion or a feeling but posting it in such a way... I dunno, wouldn't it have been better to contact the dev team who made the game specifically and ask them some questions before assuming all of this?

If your post was about research and how important it can be to making a game, I agree, but it just comes off as you being angry about the game.

As far as not wanting to start an issue: You might want to change the thread title or something, that isn't really not starting an issue, the same on the zak boards, you don't like how they made their game, how are they going to like you joining their forums to basically call them stupid and bad people?

Final reply (I hope :-) )
Regarding location: I do maintain my position. It does matter, and I don't really think you can't put anyone as the bad guy, I think it's just about thinking it clearly, and doing things right. If it's in Colombia, fine, but if it's in Colombia, and the main character reaches Bogotá, and it's supposed to be a jungle and nothing else, then I do feel that it's being portrayed as "Colombia is a pesky little country full of jungles and terrorists".

Regarding asking the questions to the team first, I did look for a "contact us" link and couldn't find it, so I went for the forums (I've just edited my post over there)

Finally, you're right about how my point regarding research goes downhill because of emotionallity. I've just edited my post over there, and state it here: It's important to do research, not only to give accurate information, but because it gives more chances of not saying something that someone can take the wrong way.

[Gregjazz]

To a certain degree I agree that that could be found offensive...

I think it's more like, if the creators of the game are basing it off of real-life things and real places (such as the airport mentioned), they should at least get their facts straight. And if they don't, it's a pity, but not that big of a deal.

[Sam.]

I can see your point, but I disagree. Every single country has its stereotype. Stereotypes make game making much easier, there is less need to explain why a character does something or has certain behaviours. For example,  there is a stereotype (at least in my country the UK) of Columbian Drug Barons, where columbian gangs run drugs through the USA. Be it true or not, its well known. Therefore, if you wanted a drug baron in a game, it would be the easiest to make him columbian. If you made him german, people would require an explanation as to his nationality.

I'm not saying this is okay, it's just true. It's also true of many other nationalities. The british are posh, the germans are nazis, the russians are communist terrorists, i could go on, but I hope you see my point.

[magintz]

Take Sam and Max for instance. Something tells me there isn't a real crime-fighting saddistic rabbit and dog going around trying to solve the mystery of Bigfoot...

See my point?

I know that that game is more cartoony and unrealistic, but even in Zak Mcraken I doubt he can fit that many items in his jacket, even if it was a very fine leather jacket.

All I'm trying to say is that the majority of the world bases ideas of locations on Stereotypes, and Americans are worst known for this. Most would believe we British people sit around drinking tea and eating porridge while watching the afternoon cricket in a suit from our castle windows.

You're not meant to take offense by innacuracy's based on common views to make a setting, the whole world is based on stereotyping and common ideas to symbolise and relate to certain locations.

I do agree to the extent that when placing a game in a realistic location, it should be based on realistic locations.

[Totoro]

I agree with what you say about the jungle. Although I do think that their level of inaccuracy in that is something that they could have avoided by making a 10 minute (instead of 5 minute) research in Google. d ask people to do better research when talking about places they don't know.

Hello? This is a game which takes place partly on the moon, not your geographic education software! For god's sake... Don't you have anything else to do with your time than such scrap? Should bus drivers feel offeneded because they are sleeping in this game instead of doing their job? How about animal rights-activist, I mean, hell, this fish tank for sushi definetely is too small and not appropriate for that kind of fish! And how about men with big nose, glasses and a mustache... do you think its fun for them being mocked in that game? Jessas Herrgott...

[Nacho]

I agree with Totoro... Relax. The author was not trying to annoy anybody, I am sure.

Humour must go in both directions. When I laugh after telling Mr. Colossal he's a dirty Pretzel eater Yankee I am not showing my sense of humour if I do not laugh too when he tells me I am a Omellete of potato eater bullfighter.

Make a game (Zack 3) and make humour of German people! I am sure LucasFan will enjoy if you put there some buckett heads eating Bratswurts. 

[rozojc]

I agree with what you say about the jungle. Although I do think that their level of inaccuracy in that is something that they could have avoided by making a 10 minute (instead of 5 minute) research in Google. d ask people to do better research when talking about places they don't know.

Hello? This is a game which takes place partly on the moon, not your geographic education software! For god's sake... Don't you have anything else to do with your time than such scrap? Should bus drivers feel offeneded because they are sleeping in this game instead of doing their job? How about animal rights-activist, I mean, hell, this fish tank for sushi definetely is too small and not appropriate for that kind of fish! And how about men with big nose, glasses and a mustache... do you think its fun for them being mocked in that game? Jessas Herrgott...

I may agree on that it was not done to annoy anybdoy, as well that of using stereotypes to easily fix a character. But I definitely won't agree with how it's not important to take into account inaccuracies just because the game is fiction. It's the same as with writers, they usually go through a research process when writing about any place, and when they don't it just takes off credibility, and I'm not talking about credibility in terms of plausibility, but in terms of being believable in the given context.

[Nacho]

Maybe the big difference is that writers earn money with books. If they piss it of with innaccuracies they won't eat.

An amateur game maker will eat no matter how many innaccuracies he may commit.

What you're trying to force is a "IMPORTANT: DO NOT PLAY THIS GAME IF YOU FEEL YOU WON'T LIKE IT OR ITS HUMOUR" notice in all the AGS games. That would really suck, IMO.

[MrColossal]

Farlander, I completely disagree that that is what he's trying to do.

He has revised his problem down to wanting people to pay attention to setting more and if it's set in a real location do a tiny bit of research, not put a warning in all AGS games.

[edmundito]

It's important to do some research for your games, specially if you want to make a serious narrative with real-life locations.

However, I don't expect much from a fan game made by amateurs... and who knows if the originally Zak was indeed 100% accurate? I know they at least got San Francisco right because they lived there, but what about the rest of the world?

Who cares, anyway. 

[Stefano]

Aye! Brazil is in the same boat on this game.
But, dude: chill out! I'm pretty sure we can get our revenge when we picture US as a cold, capitalist, belicous, egocentric (yadda yadda yadda, all the third-world that is ALSO generalizing crap I'm used to listen to, down here ).

I'm obviusly kidding. What I'm trying to tell you is that WE also have stereotypes about countries we've never been to. And it's a bad thing to picture Brazil as being a aglutinate of trees (and I would probably do 10x the research the author of this game did, just to show how much I care about other people's countries as my latin ego is also wounded), but I figured it wasn't an intencional offense. It would be offencive if, lets say, he pictured us as a bunch of starving monkeys or something of a more politically engaged nature.

Viva la revolucion!!

EDIT: I read the entire post, and I agree that the "terrorista colombiano" stereotype is offencive.

[big brother]

Ok, granted, the argument about the inaccurate portrayal of Colombia stands. Game designers should do research before they make a game.

But looking at Zak, how accurate does it try to be? One might argue that in DOTT, even if there were one thousand karat diamonds, they couldn't be sold on the Home Shopping Network (or whatever the game had). If Tim Schafer did a little more research, maybe he might have corrected this mistake.

Or would he have?

From the very start of a game like Zak, I think we can all agree it takes place in a world similar to ours, but very different. You might even call it "cartoon". In the same way cartoon art exaggerates human proportions, a cartoon game takes liberties with fact. You might as well critisize Zak, because the player character's head is too big for his body. If only the artists had done a little research...

Perhaps in certain cases, the lack of research lends to the game's originality. Or maybe it's just me.

[Nacho]

Farlander, I completely disagree that that is what he's trying to do.

He has revised his problem down to wanting people to pay attention to setting more and if it's set in a real location do a tiny bit of research, not put a warning in all AGS games.

But... where is the "bad" research in Zak? I mean... people can be kidnapped in Colombia! He is not showing something impossible.It is like showing a bomb by the torririst group ETA in Spain. It is difficult to see it happen, because they do not put bombs every day.. but It can happen. The offensive thing should have been putting a bomb in each spanish room of some game.

This game is focused in a kidnapping which happens in Colombia... ok. It is like making a game focused in the experiences of a guy in the 11-S. 11-S happened.

It should have been offensive if a character looks to those burnings buildings and says "oh, our weekly integrist terrorist strike!" Because there are not terrorist strikes in the U.S. The game maker should be telling a lie.

I think the author of Zak is not telling a lie.

Maybe I am wrong and I've missed something. My copy of Zak crashes after Paris But I don't think there's need to make such buzz for that.

[rozojc]

Farlander, I completely disagree that that is what he's trying to do.

He has revised his problem down to wanting people to pay attention to setting more and if it's set in a real location do a tiny bit of research, not put a warning in all AGS games.

But... where is the "bad" research in Zak? I mean... people can be kidnapped in Colombia! He is not showing something impossible.It is like showing a bomb by the torririst group ETA in Spain. It is difficult to see it happen, because they do not put bombs every day.. but It can happen. The offensive thing should have been putting a bomb in each spanish room of some game.

This game is focused in a kidnapping which happens in Colombia... ok. It is like making a game focused in the experiences of a guy in the 11-S. 11-S happened.

It should have been offensive if a character looks to those burnings buildings and says "oh, our weekly integrist terrorist strike!" Because there are not terrorist strikes in the U.S. The game maker should be telling a lie.

I think the author of Zak is not telling a lie.

Maybe I am wrong and I've missed something. My copy of Zak crashes after Paris But I don't think there's need to make such buzz for that.

The bad research is (for example) in the fact that Bogotá, which is in the middle of some mountains, in cold weather, is in the middle of the jungle! Or that it's a city with over 6 million citizens, and yet it's pictured like some kind of amazonian village (I've been to several of those, and some are actually more "modern" than the way it looks in the game)... I'm (right now) just talking about making it believable in its own context. It does not even work like a cartoon. Cartoons are (usually) exagerations (that's why making big heads work). To picture for example Bogotá as an incredibly big traffic jam in all streets would be an exaggeration that would work as a cartoon as we are known for great traffic jams, but to put a jungle in the middle of a city just simply makes it unbelievable even in a game's context (how believable would be a game if they picture New York now a days as a village in the middle of the jungle?)

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I don't know about Bogotá, but I'm sure that Brazil is not a jungle. But it HAS a jungle. I'm similarly sure there's more to Britain than stonehenge, too - call it a hunch.

The film "Love Actually" depicted Portuguese in an unflatteringly light, we generally aren't like that... but those people do exist here, of course. And that's all that mattered for purposes of the film.