Hurricane a'coming!!! ... again

[Andail]

Why did this discussion have to end up with the Hiroshima bomb?

But shortly, Yeah, Snarky, it makes sense that the americans dropped the bomb even though the peace preparations had started (the decision to drop the bomb was more or less rushed to make it before the war would end in some other way) if you look at it as a demonstration of power. That's how politics works, sometimes.

So, just looking at official dates isn't always enough.
I will always condemn the use of atomic bombs no matter the pretexts, and I'm rather suprised that so many people still defend it. But well, we look at it differently.

[AlbinoPanther]

But can you believe all they say in the movies? Or the TV. I've never been in America and I've almost never talked to an American. So, what do I know about them? I'm not sure...

Of course people tend to envy...

How could we envy someone who put food on our table.

My brother signed for University of Utah he is playing basketball.And he come there to replace Andre Bogut who goes to NBA.

And we want to apologise to you all esspecially for victims.
We don't wanted to offend you.
Just wanted to say that when Americans kill, that is ok, but when they got them selfs killed on one way or another, that is bad.

[Nacho]

IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER

And that "ANOTHER" has been a hurricane... And you've used it without an apparently reason to say something totally out of discussion, something that in a case like this, does not help.

I am sure that you don't consider that this "americans being killed in one way or another" is good, but it seems in your post.

And now... let's flip the omelette... When Serbia was killing croatians and kossovars was ok, but when the americans bombed Serbia was bad?

[Snarky]

Why did this discussion have to end up with the Hiroshima bomb?

But shortly, Yeah, Snarky, it makes sense that the americans dropped the bomb even though the peace preparations had started (the decision to drop the bomb was more or less rushed to make it before the war would end in some other way) if you look at it as a demonstration of power. That's how politics works, sometimes.

So, just looking at official dates isn't always enough.
I will always condemn the use of atomic bombs no matter the pretexts, and I'm rather suprised that so many people still defend it. But well, we look at it differently.

Why are you addressing yourself to me? I'm not the one who argued the nukes were justified. In fact, I lean towards the view that they were a war crime. However, they definitely did happen during the war. Stating otherwise it just plain ignorant.

Exactly what would have happened if the bombs hadn't been dropped is hotly disputed. Some argue the Japanese were about to surrender anyway (though even after the bombs, the Japanese Supreme Council couldn't agree to surrender, and it took the direct intervention of the Emperor to force the decision. And even after that, a military coup to prevent capitulation was attempted), while others argue that the war would have waged on for many months, with many more casualties.

[AlbinoPanther]

IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER

And now... let's flip the omelette... When Serbia was killing croatians and kossovars was ok, but when the americans bombed Serbia was bad?

You don't know what are you saying, GOD will forgive you!!!!

[pslocum]

Are you sure God won't bomb him?

[Nacho]

Looks like a diverting maneuver. Was the croatian and kossovar genocide ok for you or not?

[AlbinoPanther]

There were no genocide. We wish you belive us but if you belive your medias that are in hands of goverment that is your choice.
Kosovo was part of Serbia for more than a 10 century's.Serbian people lived peacfully with Albanians(there is no such thing as kossovar) But in one point they decide to become terorists and they killed our children rape our womens.
And when we wanted to save Serbian people form Albanian terror than the whole world was against us.
There where no genocide people die in a war a lot of serbian children lost their fathers.And more then a 300000 people where dislodged from their homes.
It's a long story and we don't know every detail but we know that serbia is probubly at the first place of refuges number in the world.


Tell us something when Serbia fights against terrorists in her own hous then it's a genocide and it's wrong.But when America fights against terrorist in Afganistan that is good ask yourself to whom you will belive.

Just don't say again things like serbians are killers.

One day Kosovo will be part of Albania and then we will cry and the whole world will celebrate.

Hope you understand truth is not what TV tell you.Truth is far beyond that.

This is end of our posts about this.
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We are sorry for all innocent people that died in New orleans.
                                       
                                              RIP

[voh]

Hope you understand truth is not what TV tell you.Truth is far beyond that.

Oh my god, you're right! Truth isn't in the television! Truth comes from Random Guy on the Internetâ,,¢!Ã, 

[Snarky]

You should ask yourself why the international community wasn't willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and see your side of the story. It couldn't have anything to do with the earlier genocide and ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, could it?

I realize it's difficult to accept that your nation is responsible for the worst atrocities in Europe since WWII, but snap out of the denial! Mass graves don't lie.

[Dambuilder]

Mmh, AFAIK the Hiroshima bomb was dropped *after* the war was already ended. And it was dropped in full conciousness of that fact...

Why don't you check your facts before you post looking like an idiot?

What the hell is wrong with you?
Yeah, should've checked the date before posting, should've double-checked, whatever.
I'm the first to admit any mistake I made.
But you don't have to jump at me like that! Man, how old are you?

And BTW

I'm not the one who argued the nukes were justified.

I hope this one isn't aimed at me.
I never said anything like this and I never would.

[Darth Mandarb]

Why did this discussion have to end up with the Hiroshima bomb?

Good question

I'm not the one who argued the nukes were justified.

I hope this one isn't aimed at me.
I never said anything like this and I never would.

I believe that was aimed at me!  Which is fine.  As Andail pointed out:

... and I'm rather suprised that so many people still defend it. But well, we look at it differently.

I suppose it is just a matter of opinion.  I just think a decision that cost less than 200,000 lives (dropping the bombs) as opposed to a decision that would have cost well over 2 million lives (invasion) is the correct decision.

Anyway ... back on Topic:

I heard today from a Brit on the radio who just got back from N.O. that local police on a boat came up to some young women standig o the roof of a building and said "show us what you got" making obscene gestures. They refused and the police boat drove off.

Yeah ... I've been hearing a few things like this too.  So disgusting.  I think ANYbody they catch doing things like this should be brought up on charges and sent to prison.  Leaving those women on the roof is, to my way of thinking, no different than attempted murder.

I've also heard that at least 2 cops have committed suicide ... the situation is so bad, that they couldn't handle it.

I would assume that many Americans (myself included) are just enraged at the federal government's [lack of a] response to this situation.

The Mississippi and Louisiana National Guard should have been mobilized days in advance of the approaching threat.  I mean that IS, after all, what the National Guard is partly for.  But no ... they are 5000 miles away fighting in Iraq???

Of course ... if you send our National Guardsmen to fight in Iraq you don't have to pay them combat pay.  You don't have to subsidize family housing for their families left behind in the states.  You don't have to properly support them (with body armour and weapons).  You don't have to pay death benefits to their families.

Yeah ... shipping out our "National" guard to fight a war is FAR cheaper and more economical.

I mean it's a good thing they are guarding our nation 5000 miles away.

[Kinoko]

LJUBI: I'm not American or European or whatever so I don't know the history of these things well enough to debate. All I have to say is... my god, just settle down. This is a thread about a natural disaster, and you get all `crazy internet weirdo` about it. Shut up, already, you know? Everyone's entitled to their opinion and all and I respect Puma's decision to leave your original post, but it's time to just settle down, have a beer, and chill already.

Se - ttle - down ! Okay? Calm down, and stay on topic. We're talking about a hurricane.

Vince: Holy crap, are you okay?! I'd been so busy thinking the typhoon was missing Shizuoka I forgot that you were right in the middle of it. I hope you and everyone you know is okay.

All my sympathies to the victims of the hurricane. There hasn't been that much about it on the news over here so I've only really been reading about how bad it was today. I wonder if the city will rebuild and get on with things, or if it really will be too devastated to continue on...? I'm sure they'll rebuild but it'll be interesting to see what kind of a city it'll be after this.

[Renal Shutdown]

1.

...And more then a 300000 people where dislodged from their homes.
It's a long story and we don't know every detail but we know that serbia is probubly at the first place of refuges number in the world.

Congo-Kinshasa: Almost 2 000 000.
Afghanistan: 3 600 000 + 375 000 internally displaced.
Colombia: Over 2 000 000.
(Direct Quote)Sudan: The government intensified bombings against civilians and humanitarian aid. Sudan is the single largest source of total (old and new) uprooted people in the world (both refugees and internally displaced).
Eritrea-Ethiopia: 750 000 in three years.

Source: http://www.carnegieendowment.org/events/index.cfm?fa=eventDetail&id=358&

300 000 doesn't seem so high now, does it?

2.

I understand the whole deep-rooted hatred over the loss of Kosovo. Ã, Every Serbian Kinght who went to battle, 15 June 1389 (St. Vitus' Day) died fighting the Ottoman Empire. Ã, Kosovo has a certain meaning to you. Ã, However, it's just land and people. Ã, We're all human. Ã, Personally, I couldn't care less about what "nationality" I am. Ã, As long as I can live peacefully, who cares?

3.

Indians.
They prefer the name "Native Americans". Ã, India is a country, in Asia. Ã, The Sioux, Apache, Cherokee etc you refer to are not from India, ergo they are not Indians.
They are not always perceived as Evil in American films. Ã, Some tribes were more vicious than others. Ã, Actually watching the films might give you an insight into this, and stop you making just broad generalisations.
Oddly enough, they didn't live peacefully before the Europeans arrived. Ã, Tribes would fight other tribes. Ã, Much like the did in Europe centuries before.
I'm not sure what you're taught in Serbia, but I think you'll find that Native Americans are still alive and well in the USA.

4.

Slave trade.Ã,  Fine.Ã,  Slate America for having Slaves.Ã,  Just remember, they were brought over by the Europeans, who then lost the country in 1776.Ã,  America didn't invent slavery, and weren't the last to use it.

5.

Terror.Ã,  Albanian terror in Serbia.Ã,  Al Qaeda's terror on the world.Ã,  You may have dealt with it discretely.Ã,  However, the World Trade Center wasn't bombed by the same losers who hit the building in Okie, it was an international terrorist group.Ã,  It's hard not to retaliate with alerting the world to the situation.
Also, America was criticised for their actions, globally.Ã,  It's not like everyone stood by and said "Hey, it's America.Ã,  They get to do what they want".

6.

God.

You seem to mention him or her a lot in your posts. Ã, I'm Assuming it's a Christian interpretation of a Deity. Ã, Personally, I am offended by you forcing you religious beliefs upon me. Ã, I don't post message after message, telling what you should and shouldn't believe. Ã, I would appreciate it I you didn't do the same to me.

If you really are that bothered by religion, then I suggest you voice those concerns in a religious forum, and not one based around a game making engine. Ã, I'm sure you wouldn't like someone telling you how your belief system is wrong and that you should follow a different path..
..That's as far as I'm willing to enter into a Religious debate right now.

Before ranting away on various subjects that you think you're correct with, I'd suggest doing a little research into each point first. Just to make yourself a little more credible.



To Vince and any others involved.Ã,  I hope everything's Okay.Ã,  Anything that isn't Okay, I hoped it's insured.Ã,  Good Luck.

In response to Kinky's comment:
London's Blitz gave us a chance to build more modern buildings, and rescape the city.Ã,  New Orleans has that opportunity now too.Ã,  I too am interested in what they'll do to it during the rebuild.

[Vince Twelve]

Kinoko & Iqu: Don't worry about me.  Okinawans barely blink at typhoons.  We literally get a typhoon a week around here.  We're up to our kneepits in 'em.  (Between August and December last year, we were hit by eighteen.)  Okinawa, however, unlike New Orleans (partially thanks to certain budget cuts), is built to withstand this kind of barrage.  Here, the only typhoon preparations we have are taking our plants inside.



And to the LJUBI twins (possibly triplets?) and anyone else who believes in their so-called "god":

You are going to hell.  I'm sorry to say it but it's true.  You are going to hell unless you imediately change your ways and convert to the one true religion.  Let him reach out and touch you with His Noodly Appendage and you will truly know God.

Furthermore, your "god" did not send the hurricane.  It is known by followers of the one true religion that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s.  For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.



I think, beyond a reasonable doubt, I have proved my point (unless any of you FSM-less heathens have a chart) and we can therefore lay to rest the whole religious issue.

P.S. Aaarrrrrrrr!

[TheYak]

This may be going too far off-topic, but... 1/5? How does that work? Do you have five biological grandparents?

Rounding.  My mother being 1/8 and father being 1/16 =3/16, pretty close to 1/5.  Damn you for pulling me off topic again.  Oh, and Vince . . . utterly brilliant.

On atomic bombs: I abhor being a country that was the first and only (thus far) to use them against another country.  However, the loss of life was theoretically less than it would've been in a war theater scenario and it did one great thing - it showed the world what they (not the US, the bombs) could do.  If we hadn't, some other nation would've been the first to test them.  Japan's now prosperous in the world economy.  I shudder to think what might've happened if our initial nuking took place in a major high-population city (like Hong Kong).  I wouldn't have been able to make the decision to drop 'em but I can't argue that the decision was the utterly incorrect one, there's not enough evidence not based upon a "what if" scenario.

On Native Americans: The name's ridiculous.  Current evolutionary theory and even most creationist theory demonstrates that the "Native Americans" were immigrants in a not too distant past (talking circa 1000 vs. 10,000 years here).  The only major group that disagrees are the Mormons, but they're insane.  I have to grant that Native American is less silly than Indian, but I'd assume the preference would be Cherokee or Mewok.  After all, the French would throw a shit-fit if we only called them Native Europeans. 

On New Orleans:  The response is horrible.  The FEMA director is an idiot and has been less well-informed than the average internet user.  Our resources being occupied overseas is utter BS, but it'll have worse results in a few months: I can well imagine the administration using this as an example: "We need troops overseas, but also need them at home.  Just look at the response to New Orleans." This'll be used to boost military numbers and spending, and potentially to institute a draft.

[Kinoko]

Every day, I read/see something on the internet that makes my tiring day at work teaching little noisy b... er, angels... worth it. Vince, thank you. You made the cut today

Heck, and now I know that the answer to peace on earth TRULY IS pirates.

[Andail]

And I'd die to meet those remaining 17 pirates.
Or would I??

[SSH]

I will always condemn the use of atomic bombs no matter the pretexts, and I'm rather suprised that so many people still defend it. But well, we look at it differently.

There was an interesting discussion on the bomb on Radio 4 recently, it beign 60th anniversary and all, and there was a senior Japanese ex-diplomat on the program too. All of the pundits on the programme agreed that the death of the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was terrible, but also agreed that it plaed in comparison to the Tokyo fire bombings and the potential cost of an invasion of Japan. Also they agreeed that if the bomb hadn't been dropped on japan, it was far more liekly to have been used at some later date.... which might have incuded mutually assured destruction. So on balance, it probably did save lives. Potentially the whople human race.

[Andail]

Snarky, sorry, I sort of read your post out of context.

Anyhow.
I have a hard time understanding how something terrible can be justified by saying "otherwise we'd have done something even worse".
Why go to these extreme lengths? The japanese hit pearl harbour, sure, a sneak attack with disastrous results, but it was still a military base, with a few thousand casualties (I haven't looked up this figure, so don't come down on me too hard on that one).
But an atomic bomb? I think you need to use your imagination in order to understand what it must have been like. I don't think people of today, be it even japanese, can excuse or justify this act. It would be just cynism. We were not there, and you cannot trade other people's lives as if they were collectors cards.

Darth, your million-casualties-alternative is just a hypothesis, and not even a widely accepted such, at least not by historians I've spoken to.
The japanese had no reasons to continue the war on their own, especially not with the red army approaching - and even surrounding - them. Many historians claim that the americans dropped the bomb so that Japan would offically surrender to them, and them alone, and not to the soviet union, or just simply sign a peace treaty.
As I said, their preparations for peace were in progress.

Then again, I'm perfectly aware that the allied bombings of many german cities were astrocities of an almost equal magnitude, so don't think I'm singling out americans (I'm talking about the phosphor-bomb raides which were carried out more or less after the end of the war, which completely ruined many german cities and killed an enormous amount of civilians).
(And don't even get me started on the cowardness of Sweden during this time.)

Anyhow, acts of revenge tend to almost always be overkills.
The atomic bomb was a hasty decision, not necessary for the time being, and not justifiable in retrospect.