Hurricane a'coming!!! ... again

[Nacho]

Mmm...

Sorry Petter... But the japs did not stop the military actions in Pearl Harbour.

Anyway if there's something to blame in those latest days of war it was the Jap military government, who received an untimatum the 4th (and the bomb on 6th day  was another ultimatum itself) But they wanted to go on with the war even the 10th. Crazy. Hiro Hito was cool... Pitty he was just a decorative figure before and during the war.

[Las Naranjas]

The Soviet Union declared war on Japan AT THE REQUEST of the western powers Andail, which would make an action designed to ensure a surrender to the US alone absurd.


And of course it's logical that Japan would have no reason to continue fighting.

It was also logical that an attack on Pearl Harbour would lead to a war that Japan would never win, and that they knew this when they attacked.

Bushido isn't logical. AS a matter of fact, it's completely moronic.

Whilst segments of the power structure in Japan were preparing for peace, it is a full and possible chance that they would no have suceeded against the die hards. And American troops were already facing Kamikaze pilots, as well as finding the bodies of the thousands of civilian suicides in Okinawa and other places. based on that, would you think they were surrender reasonably?

Was the right decision made? We don't know now after 60 years of hindsight (I'm not foolish enought to have a strong opinion as to which option would have had greater deaths), I fail to see that the Americans were in a great position to make a decision, but they made one, which shouldn't be judged with exceptionally simple moral abolutism. There is no morality in war.


on a side note Yak, what do you think of the Canadianism "First Nations"?

[Nacho]

Let my add to this, Las Naranjas, that the great Japanese Admiral Yamato told that the only way to win the war would have been necessary "A sudden strike for sinking the carriers of the US pacific fleet, otherwise, a year of great victories will follow, and then some bad years to the final defeat by the american naval superiority".

So, Yamato knew on September the 8th in 1941 that Japan was going to lose the war in 1944 or 45. There were no carriers in Pearl Harbour, since they were making maneuvers.

Yamato was in the first line of fire in a war he knew he was going to lose. That was admirable. The men who decided to go on with the war on August the 7th, putting civilians in the first line of fire were cowards, shame on them.

[Kweepa]

And I'd die to meet those remaining 17 pirates.
Or would I??

A friend of mine has done just that (for a magazine article) - I think there were more than 17 of them
http://seb.brunel.free.fr/indonesie/index.htm
It's in French but there are pretty pictures.

[Andail]

I don't think it's foolish to have an opinion, nor do I find it hard to apply rather simple moral standards even in wars.
Even if Soviet was prompted to declare war on Japan, I have no problems seeing that USA still wanted the psychological effect of ending the war in this demonstrative and very forceful manner.

Back to the morality; you're responsible for the actions you make, when you make them. If you make a decision which leads to hundreds of thousands of civilians melting to death in the worst agonies humans can possibly experience, you will have to answer to that, not to what could have happened otherwise.

If a person shoots my mother to death, I can't go and torch their house down, and claim "we would probably have fought over this forever, and now I put a definite end to it, so I probably saved lives for both our families." 
I would be responsible for the arson, and for only that, and their lives would be on my conscience.

[Bernie]

Oh hey, let's all go and donate something to the Red Cross! IÃ, bet this would achieve more than driving this thread further into off-topic land. Arr!

[TheYak]

on a side note Yak, what do you think of the Canadianism "First Nations"?

While the doctrine (and primarily the organization) does a lot to educate its students concerning theory of North American population and cultural development, it seems rather flawed to me in that it proposes belief in the mythical (or at least rather hypothetical) idea that life could've originated in the US.  Maybe it's the fact that I've read up on Mormonism, but it seems an egocentric proposal seeking to bend facts in order to support its vain conclusions.  Despite the pride of the European cultures, the most logical theory is that life originated in a continent of darker-skinned peoples in the neighborhood of Northern Africa or the South Mediterranean (hence the origin-coordinate oriented name it acquired later). 

It seems every major people has some theory that their race was the first.   The Pangean continental drift theory or at least the land-bridge theory seem far more realistic, particularly given the cultural development and external features acquired by the North American settlers.  I find it sad how little is known about the varied cultures from the North American contient and worse still that little is commonly known beyond stereotypes of peyote-smoking, feather-wearing, and the dichotomy of their reputation (bad guys v. good guys).   

Much like the concept of the "Noble Savage" which arose out of enamoration of "cultured" peoples with the victimized American settlers; it's more likely to bring more scorn and ignorance and the whimsical theories it carries with it are discarded.    Alright....   way off topic..  just an interesting subject for me.  I suppose it could've been a PM, but it's at least less caustic than some of the Atomic discussion mutations.

[Las Naranjas]

I was reading only last night about the Anasazi in the South West, as well as other civilisations that have destroyed themselves through ecological damage, and what struck me is how completely and utterly alike to Europeans they must have been. Humans are all the same!

But I also think about the fact that a variety of European cultures keep in their mythology the fact that they are from somewhere else. The old testament talks about Abraham coming from the east into the holy land. The old celtic myths in Britain mentioned first the little people and then humans coming to Britain from Europe, and an island of origin is an occuring motif in Polynesian folklore.

Then shintoism sought to find that the Japanese had always been in Japan, and always with the emperor, even with the Ainu complicating matters.

I'm not going anywhere with this, but the important thing is that I agree that implying that native peoples weren't murderers and ecological disasters like the rest of it is a continuation of the noble savage condescension.

[Darth Mandarb]

Was the right decision made? We don't know now after 60 years of hindsight (I'm not foolish enought to have a strong opinion as to which option would have had greater deaths), I fail to see that the Americans were in a great position to make a decision, but they made one, which shouldn't be judged with exceptionally simple moral abolutism. There is no morality in war.

Are you calling me foolish?

Let's look at some of the Island Hopping campaigns that led up to the eventual invasion of mainland Japan:

The Battle for Guadacanal (7 august 1942)
American deaths: 1,500
Japanese deaths: 15,000 KIA (9,000 more from malaria)

The Battle on Tarawa (21 november 1942)
American deaths: 1,300
Japanese deaths: 4,700 (only 17 survived)

The Battle of Saipan (15 june 1944)
American deaths: 3,500
Japanese deaths: 21,000 KIA (8,000 suicides)

The Battle of Iowa Jima (19 february 1945)
American deaths: almost 7,000
Japanese deaths: almost 21,000

Now these are just a few of the many, many more islands that were taken on the road to Tokyo in the Pacific theater.  And ALL of these islands were much smaller and much less populated/fortified than mainland Japan.

If there were that many casualties on small little islands, it's only logical to assume that casualities on a march larger,  much more heavily defended island would dwarf all previous D-Days in the Pacific.

Will we ever know, with any certainty, what the outcome would have been had we invaded rather than dropping the bomb?  No.  We can only speculate.  I would say, given the statistics of the war up until that point (particualarly in the Pacific theater) that there's more evidence which suggests an allied invasion of Japan would have been FAR more costly than dropping the bombs.

My belief that the dropping of the bombs saved lives is no more foolish than anybody claiming the opposite.

Should it not be the goal of the participants in a war to win that war with as few casualities as possible?  Obviously, yes, it should.

The Japanese started the war.  We ended it.  They made it our decision.

To quote Gene Hackman in Crimson Tide:  "By all means, drop that fucker ... twice!"

[Snarky]

Was dropping the bomb ... twice, really the only alternative to a full-scale invasion, though? There seems to be a possibility, at least, that the Japanese could have been convinced to surrender within a few weeks by the Soviet entry into the war and a demonstration of the nuke that didn't involve killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. Certainly many people thought so at the time, and it has been argued by many historians since then.

I do agree that it's morally insufficient to refuse to consider the consequences of not using the bombs, though. Yes, the American leadership are responsible for the people they killed, but if they had decided to not use the bombs and ten times as many people had died because of it, they would have been responsible for that, too. In war time, generals routinely make decisions to sacrifice some lives to save others. There's simply no way around that. People die in war no matter what you do, and the best you can hope for is to minimize the number, even if that means sacrificing the few (or, in this case, the not so few) in order to save the many.

[Las Naranjas]

Darth, if you read what I'm saying, I'm largely supporting you arguments, but I do think this is one of the greatest historical ambiguities and "what ifs" we can think of. Great for debate, but a STRONG opinion [as opposed to a measured one], like any strong opinion where hypothesis is involved, is foolish.

[Darth Mandarb]

Darth, if you read what I'm saying, I'm largely supporting you arguments, but I do think this is one of the greatest historical ambiguities and "what ifs" we can think of. Great for debate, but a STRONG opinion [as opposed to a measured one], like any strong opinion where hypothesis is involved, is foolish.

Roger that!  I think I just misunderstood you.  No worries.

About the hurricane ...

I heard today that there were 3 Walmart trucks full of bottled water and a Coast Guard chopper with fuel (for generators and the like) that were trying to deliver to the area around New Orleans and that FEMA, for whatever reason, turned them away.

This seems a little far fetched to me ... it was on Air America.

I also heard today that they are letting people back to their homes, in some areas, but they must then leave again by Sunday.  That most of the houses are a total loss.  As is the case with most of the buildings.  That the city is a total loss (except for the slightly elevated French Quarter).

I still haven't heard any excuse from the White House explaining the delay in their response to this.

[Helm]

There is no morality in war.

A moral examination of actions and consequences of a given war. Morality while in the proccess of war, being involved in a war. Not the same thing. Andail is making moral judgements on this historical situation you're discussing, and ( I read your above quoted reply as meaning ) that morality is 'innaplicable' during war. I really don't see the problem with discussing various viewpoints about a historical situation, and how they fit in in a moral context. If you're saying that during a war, people step aside of their own ( usually absolute) ethics ( christian, in this case, where 'every life is sacred') and into the realm of utilitarian 'I must make the choice that will mean the loss of less lives as possible' morality, then say it. That's still an ethical standpoint, and can be discussed.

You've made a highly ambiguous comment, and for one against generalized and simplifed claims...

[Snarky]

I heard today that there were 3 Walmart trucks full of bottled water and a Coast Guard chopper with fuel (for generators and the like) that were trying to deliver to the area around New Orleans and that FEMA, for whatever reason, turned them away.

This seems a little far fetched to me ... it was on Air America.

"Sir, they were told like me, every single day, 'The
cavalry's coming,' on a federal level, 'The cavalry's coming, the
cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming.'Ã,  I have just begun to hear the
hoofs of the cavalry.Ã,  The cavalry's still not here yet, but I've begun
to hear the hoofs, and we're almost a week out.

"Let me give you just three quick examples.Ã,  We had Wal-Mart deliver
three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water.Ã,  FEMA turned them back.Ã, 
They said we didn't need them.Ã,  This was a week ago.Ã,  FEMA--we had 1,000
gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish.Ã,  The
Coast Guard said, 'Come get the fuel right away.'Ã,  When we got there
with our trucks, they got a word.Ã,  'FEMA says don't give you the fuel.'Ã, 
Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency
communication lines.Ã,  They cut them without notice.Ã,  Our sheriff, Harry
Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our
line and says, 'No one is getting near these lines.'Ã,  Sheriff Harry Lee
said that if America--American government would have responded like
Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis."

-- Aaron Broussard, Jefferson Parish President

http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4911

[shbaz]

I just got back from a FEMA detainment camp

Disgusting.

Mind you, this is a stupid conspiracy site I normally laugh at but there are pictures and that is a real place which he is accurately describing. There's another camp being set up in Camp Gruber, Oklahoma (a basic training camp for the armed forces) near my hometown and I'm sure it'll be similarly set up.. they kept 20k Germans there captured from the African desert in WWII.

I guess I could go see, if I feel like throwing up.

[Las Naranjas]

The Australian government has been criticised here because consular officials in the US hadn't done much to find missing Australians in the city.

The government said it was because the consular officials had been denied access to the New Orleans area, on the basis that it wold make things more chaotic.

In the mean time, Australian television crews found an picked up Australian survivors.

Now, are TV crews less chaotic then diplomats? Would letting in diplomats be a blow to national machismo? Is the Australian government bullshitting.

Basically, what the hell is going on here?

[Kinoko]

Thanks for that, LN. It's nice to hear what's happening in the Aussie news. If that's true... *sniff* makes me feel proud.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Moore again.

Friends,

There is much to be said and done about the manmade annihilation of New Orleans, caused NOT by a hurricane but by the very specific decisions made by the Bush administration in the past four and a half years. Do not listen to anyone who says we can discuss all this later. No, we can't. Our country is in an immediate state of vulnerability. More hurricanes, wars, and other disasters are on the way, and a lazy bunch of self-satisfied lunatics are still running the show.

So, in the next few days, I will write to you about what must be done about Bush and Co.

But today I want you to join with me in bypassing the colossally inept and incompetent Bush administration and get help DIRECTLY to the people of the New Orleans area -- right now.

A lot of you have written me to ask what you can do. Many don't know who to trust. Many want to do more than write a check. You are right to think that writing checks to relief agencies will not get water and aid to people in the next 48 hours. Checks will be needed later and can be written later.

I have a way, though, for each and every one of us to do something today that can affect people's lives TODAY.

For the past few days I've been working with a group that, I guarantee you, will get direct aid to the people who need it most.

Cindy Sheehan, the brave woman who dared to challenge Mr. Bush at his summer home, has now sent her Camp Casey from in front of Bush's ranch to the outskirts of New Orleans. The Veterans for Peace have taken all the equipment and staff of volunteers and set up camp in Covington, Louisiana, on the shores of Lake Pontchartrain. They are accepting materials and personally distributing them to those in need.

This is where we come in. We need to ship supplies to them immediately. Today they need the following:

Paper plates, paper towels, toilet paper, baby diapers, baby wipes, baby formula, Pedialyte, baby items in general, powder, lotion, handy wipes, sterile gloves, electrolytes, LARGE cans of veggies, school supplies, and anything else to lift people's spirits.

You can ship these items by following the instructions on VFPRoadTrips.org. Or you can deliver them there in person. The roads to Covington are open. Here's how to get there. You can drop them off or you can stay and participate (if you stay, you'll be camping so bring your own tent and gear and mosquito spray).

If you can't ship these items or go there in person, then go to VFPRoadTrips.org and make an immediate donation through PayPal. Camp Casey-Covington will have immediate access to this cash and can buy the items themselves from stores that are open in Louisiana (all donations to Veterans for Peace, are tax deductible).

Each day I will post up-to-the minute information as to what is needed and the progress Camp Casey is making. Please visit MichaelMoore.com often and do what you can to help.

Many other groups are also doing good work. MoveOn.org has set up a system for people to offer rooms in their homes to the survivors.

There is no time to waste. People are suffering and dying. Each of us can do something. There is no other alternative.

Thank you in advance for your help. Tomorrow, we will take care of the other work we need to do about the ideologically hamstrung incompetents in charge.

Yours,
Michael Moore
Mike@MichaelMoore.com
MichaelMoore.com

EDIT - Oh, here are the links:

http://www.vfproadtrips.org

How to get there: http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&rmm=1&un=m&cl=EN&ct=NA&rsres=1&1a=&1c=&1s=&1z=&2a=1115+West+28th+Avenue&2c=Covington&2s=LA&2z=

Donation through paypal: http://www.vfproadtrips.org/#donation

Offer rooms to survivors: http://www.hurricanehousing.org/

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Well, since I sort of became the "Moore spokesperson" in this 'ere forums, I thought I might as well keep going.

Friends,

Last week I closed my New York production office and sent my staff down to New Orleans to set up our own relief effort. I asked all of you to help me by sending food, materials and cash to the emergency relief center we helped set up on the shores of Lake Pontchartrain with the Veterans for Peace. We did this when the government was doing nothing and the Red Cross was still trying to get it together. Every day, every minute was critical. People were dying, poor people, black people, left like so much trash in the street. I wanted to find a way to get aid in there immediately.

I hooked up with the Vietnam veterans and Iraqi war vets (Veterans for Peace) who were organizing a guerilla, grass-roots relief effort. They were the same group that had set up Cindy Sheehan's camp in Crawford and now they had moved Camp Casey to Louisiana.

I have good news and horrible news to report. First, your response to my appeal letter was overwhelming. Within a few days, a half-million dollars was sent in through my website to fund our relief effort. This money was immediately used to buy generators, food, water, a mobile medical van, tents, satellite phones, etc.

Others of you began shipping supplies to our encampment. People in communities all over the country started organizing truck caravans to us in Louisiana. Twenty-two trucks from southern California alone have already arrived. A semi-truck from Chicago delivered ten tons of food. A group of friends in New Jersey got two 24 foot trucks, got their community to load them up with goods, and arrived in Covington tonight. Fifteen iMacs are inbound from California. One man gave us his pick-up truck and another donated truck is en route from Houston.

Your response to my appeal has been nothing short of miraculous. And it has saved many, many lives.

A number of you decided to just get in your cars and drive to our camp to volunteer to help. We now have had 150 volunteers here doing the work that needs to be done. Last night they unloaded twenty tons of food from a tractor trailer in under two hours. Each day more volunteers arrive. Everyone is sleeping on the ground or in tents. It is a remarkable sight. Thank you, all of you, for responding. I will never forget this outpouring of generosity to those forgotten by our own government.

My staff and the vets spend their 18-hour days delivering food and water throughout the city of New Orleans and the surrounding areas. What they have seen is appalling. I have asked them to post their daily diaries on my website (www.michaelmoore.com) along with accompanying photos and video so you can learn what is really going on. What the media is showing you is NOT the whole story. It is much, much worse and there is still little being done to bring help to those who need it.

Our group has visited many outlying towns and villages in Mississippi and Louisiana, places the Red Cross and FEMA haven't visited in over a week. Often our volunteers are the first relief any of these people have seen. They have no food, water or electricity. People die every day. There are no TV cameras recording this. They have started to report the spin and PR put out by the White House, the happy news that often isn't true ("Everyone gets 2,000 dollars!").

The truth is that there are dead bodies everywhere and no one is picking them up. My crew reports that in most areas there is no FEMA presence, and very little Red Cross. It's been over two weeks since the hurricane and there is simply not much being done. At this point, would you call this situation incompetence or a purposeful refusal to get real help down there?

That's why we decided not to wait. And we are so grateful to all of you who have joined us. The Veterans for Peace and my staff aren't leaving (and that's why we are hoping those of you who can't get to Covington will make it to the Veterans for Peace co-sponsored anti-war demonstration in DC on September 24: www.unitedforpeace.org.)

If you want to help, here's what we need in Covington right now:

Cleaning Supplies (glass cleaner, bleach, disinfectant, etc.)
Aspirin and other basic over the counter drugs.
Bottled Water
Canned Goods
Hygiene Supplies
Baby Supplies - Baby Food Formula, diapers #4, #5, Wipes, Pedialyte
Sterile Gloves
Batteries - All kinds, from AA to watch and hearing aid batteries.
Volunteers with trucks and cars
Self contained kitchens with generators, utensils, workers

Consider sending supplies in reusable containers. List the contents on the outside of the package so the folks in the warehouse can easily sort the items.

Clothes are not needed. If you go, keep in mind that you MUST be self-sufficient. Bring a tent and a sleeping bag. People are driving to Covington from across the country and often have extra room in their cars for you or for an extra box of supplies. For more information, go to the Veterans for Peace message board: www.vfproadtrips.org/katrina/.

Send supplies via UPS to:
Veterans for Peace
Omni Storage
74145 Hwy. 25
Covington LA

Thanks again for funding and supporting our relief efforts. It has been a bright spot in this otherwise shameful month.

Yours,
Michael Moore
mike@michaelmoore.com
www.michaelmoore.com