Why does it have to be like this?

[rharpe]

Note: Before reading this, I want you to realize this is what I believe and that if you have issues with it... I am only allowed to voice what I believe, if it is ok with the moderators. I am not trying to start a religious war... I'm not trying to start an argument... This is what I believe, what I know, and what I live by. Remember, if you do not have anything good to say, please refrain. Thank you.

FALL OF THE ANGELS
God had made it known that a man/woman would be put above them. But Lucifer, the angel closest to God, succumbed to his pride saying, "Non serviam". Meaning: I will not serve.

FALL OF MAN
Man was made in the image of God, but since the fall of Adam and Eve, we have become proud humans that carry on this curse. Lucifer, (aka: the Devil,) was able to tempt Eve into eating the apple, then Eve was able to convince Adam to eat the apple too. It may not seem to be a big thing to eat a simple apple, but they were specifically told not to by the God that created them.

MANY CENTURIES LATER
So through the years, humans have been slandering, cheating, lying, fighting and killing because of one thing: PRIDE! (which was the original sin of man.) And the times seem like they will never change.

So how do we combat this PRIDE of ours? We must first realize that we are not gods, we cannot do anything without God's help, we must suck up our pride and be humble servants of God. We need to help each other instead of being "loners." We must stop this idea of, "I can do it, because I can." This will lead to selfishness, egotistical attitudes, and (there it is again, PRIDE!) Humility is the answer and to restore all things in Christ!

This may not help with the way you feel regarding your homeland and its current state, but hopefully it will give you some insight to why people are the way they are. Pride affects everything we do and everyone we know... God is the one we should be focusing on, not ourselves. If you offer up to God your prayers, selfless acts of mercy, good intentions, and courtesy to your fellow men, God will reward you either in this world or the next. May God bless you all!   

   

[AlbinoPanther]

Amen

[Paper Carnival]

Well.. The bible doesn't say "apple". It's "the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Edit: I am a christian and take most of the Bible literally, but the story about Adam and Eve is most likely symbolical, in my oppinion. But that's another story... The truth is, there will never be peace in the world. According to the way I interprete the Bible, Satan still rules the world because man allowed him to take that place.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be one of those ugly debates.

[Nacho]

Amen

[Nikolas]

rharpe: Noble words and beliefs my friend...

AMEN

[Andail]

Well, that was a rather literal view on christianity and the bible.
Sure, pride's a bitch, but what has it got to do with eating the apple? (isn't that just curiousity, or disobedience or whatever) Why do you nead the bible to explain the destructive sides of humanity? All these angels and devils seem sort of old-fashioned catholic to me. I think it's more fruitful trying to explain things using socio-cultural patterns and ordinary psychology.

[Nikolas]

I think it's more fruitful trying to explain things using socio-cultural patterns and ordinary psychology.

I do believe that some things that go back a lot of years (like religion, for one) are based mainly on socio-cultural patterns, as well as history of course.

Things that few people were clever, or open minded, or whatever enough to notice were kinda hard to pass on to others. Humanity opened its eyes when it found out that the world is not flat (!) and not the center of the unicerse. Up to then anybody with a deifferent mind was burnt...

So any new thought, at different parts of the world and at different times was pased as religion...

It's not that I don't believe or something like that but if you think about it a lot of things mentioned in religion make sense even nowdays. So it does make sense to analyse things this way. It may be old fashioned and catholic (though it could be orthodox) but then again he speaks of peace and the wrongs of pride.

As for what it has to do with eating the apple, maybe it is that Adam and Eve were too pride to hear somebody who knew better than them...

[Huw Dawson]

I have a simple view on this.

History repeats itself. This is because even though Technology marches on, human attitudes remain the same. You have problems when a country gets a leader. Seeing as attitudes remain the same, humans can convince others to do something by a motivation of a kind. Seeing as everyone has got similar hopes and fears (Safety, Food...) influencing people can be easy. Did anyone notice how many adverts you get about expensive stuff Ã, at christmas? People are trying to influence you then. In fact, the entire world's situation today is based upon influence. If in an election campain season, you didn't get contant TV adverts saying "Vote X as the other person has coodies!" (As this is basically what their saying!), in fact, *no* form of advert or scanilisation of either side, you'd actually vote for the one that you personally like the policies of more. Influencing the majority (and money) control the world.

Simple as pie.

And the world wasn't ever thought to be flat, that was a Victorian invention to make the Brits seem better (Making historiacal people look dumb so that the Victorians can say "Look how far we've come! - Again, influence and money)

[Andail]

The problem I have with most religions is that everything is extremely dogmatic. I don't think that you must always be humble and modest, nor do I think pride is always wrong (I'm proud of many things), nor that we owe some deity for just existing.

If you offer up to God your prayers, selfless acts of mercy, good intentions, and courtesy to your fellow men, God will reward you either in this world or the next.

It's rather interesting that you're supposed to make "selfless acts of mercy" and still have a reward in mind? If you make offers to this God, you obviously expect something in return. That's rather selfish.

I think you can be perfectly fair, generous and unselfish and still believe that in the end (after you die or whatever) it doesn't really matter. Nobody will count all your acts and deeds and check your balance.

[Paper Carnival]

The problem I have with most religions is that everything is extremely dogmatic. I don't think that must always be humble and modest, nor do I think pride is always wrong (I'm proud of many things)

I know, and the bible actually says that being extreme is wrong.

Ecclesiastes chapter 7:15-18
...I have seen both of these:
a righteous man perishing in his righteousness,
and a wicked man living long in his wickedness.

16 Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwiseâ€"
why destroy yourself?

17 Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a foolâ€"
why die before your time?

18 It is good to grasp the one
and not let go of the other.
The man who fears God will avoid all extremes


^ I wish more people would emphasize on the above scripture as much as they emphasize on the rest of the bible (supposing they believe the bible)

[Nikolas]

Nobody will count all your acts and deeds and check your balance.

I really don't believe in after life (oh, except for zombies and residence evil and all )

But sometimes I feel guilty for things I did 10-20 years ago, even though i was only 8-18 years old back then. And i think that this guilt will not go away over the years, as it is still here for like half of my life.

Well this idea is my idea of hell (i don't believe in after life). But if i am to remain with all my thoughts or something like that i want my thoughts to be nice, even with women and bare breasts and all

But again for the rest of my life, which really is what counts for me, i don't want to have guilts of any kind, so i'm being relaly cautious (not with my spelling of course) to what i say and do, as not to hurt anybody.

And i really hope that ignorance can be forgiven as i am ignorant of MANY things.

Well for me, guilt is my energy and... hmmm it works just fine, although i do feel such a sucker sometimes...

i don't know but if the rest of the world was thinking like i did then at least there wouldn't be any intentional bad deeds. Just stupid things...

Guybrush: I know that the bible says so many things. It is after all so many pages, so many books (if you consider the old and the new) so... And of course when someone, whether this be a priest, your family, a prophet, asks you to believe (in) something without any kind of proof, well you have to be dogmatic in order to take it. I'm with Andail on this one...

[rharpe]

Well.. The bible doesn't say "apple". It's "the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

You are correct sir, I stand corrected. (Many illustrations depict an apple is being eaten by our first parents.)

I am a christian and take most of the Bible literally, but the story about Adam and Eve is most likely symbolical, in my oppinion.

Mankind has to start somewhere... a man and a woman that God creates to start the generations of men doesn't sound symbolic to me at all. Only a theologian of the Catholic Church could translate the literal sense from the symbolic sense. I am not a theologian!

It's rather interesting that you're supposed to make "selfless acts of mercy" and still have a reward in mind? If you make offers to this God, you obviously expect something in return. That's rather selfish.

You're absolutely right... I shouldn't expect a reward in the end, that is selfish. I should just give my whole and entire self to God because He loves me so much. How do I know this? Because his only begotten son died on the cross for my sins. He died for me. So how can I return a favor like this, of such great magnitude? I must try to live as Christ taught us to, while He was on this earth. Is this even possible? Yes, but it won't be easy. I'm selfish, prideful, and full of many other vices. So how can I prove to God that I love Him? Prayer, sacrifices (small or big,) selfless acts, corporal and spiritual works of mercy, follow the ten commandments, receive the sacraments Christ instituted, and try to stay in sanctifying grace. 

I think you can be perfectly fair, generous and unselfish and still believe that in the end (after you die or whatever) it doesn't really matter. Nobody will count all your acts and deeds and check your balance.

Sure, you can believe this if you like. But my question to you would be, "Why be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish or even love someone if it's all for nothing?" There has to be a reason why we're here on this earth. There has to be a reason why we must be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish and love one another. If there is no God, we are not accountable for our actions (good or bad,) life would be a "free for all" which would make our very existence in vain.

[Nikolas]

Sure, you can believe this if you like. But my question to you would be, "Why be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish or even love someone if it's all for nothing?" There has to be a reason why we're here on this earth.

After seeing my son being born I can tell you that I feel that this is the reason from me and my wife to be in this earth. And as for being good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish it is never for nothing. You're trying to tell us here that you really don't care about this life cause you will be rewarded in the next one?

I try to be all these things (succesfully or not, I'm not the one to judge) and hope that in return people will be good to me in this life. And since I sincerely believe that I'm doing the right thing (which is more or less according to the Christian rules, and I'm baptised as my son is, becuase there is no other way to get a name in Greece! That's true! You must have a religion!!!!) so I hope that in case that there is an after life I'm covered...

One thing I learned about death and all myths surrounding it is this:

While you're alive there's no reason to worry about death, you're not there yet. When you're dead there's nothing you can do about it. So why worry...I don't know it just seems reasonable advice. Since my believes and deeds don't contradict the Christian way, I am ok. And my believes and deeds go according to what I think and of course what I'm taught but not what I'm dictated to do...

[Paper Carnival]

As far as Adam/Eve goes, of course I believe that there were originally two humans, but Adam & Eve might not be them but are there to symbolise the whole humanity. I just don't bother finding out, symbolical or not the point is the same.

But anyway, humans have built-in will to do good and not just evil. The bible says that "everyone has the law written in their hearts", meaning that you can be moral without being religious. If that weren't true, then atheists would be just evil

I'm baptised as my son is, becuase there is no other way to get a name in Greece!

That's the way it goes, unfortunately. In Greece the vast majority is Orthodox Christians and I got a lot of crap from my parents and kids at school because I stopped being Orthodox

[Igor]

Why be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish or even love someone if it's all for nothing?"

I'm not religious.. but i think if people need a "higher" reason to be all that, then there's something wrong with society.
It's not all for nothing, not even for us atheists it feels good, to make others happy, to love, etc.
in other words: if someone is doing this *just* for religion sake.. for a higher purpose if you want.. then.. isn't it just as "sinful" (damn, how i hate this word) as to be hateful, selfish, etc.? It's worse, if you ask me. I'd call it hypocrisy.

There has to be a reason why we must be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish and love one another

sure there is.
And there is also a reason we have laws, prisons, accustomed moral conscience... religion..
It's the only way we can survive as a society.

no hard feelings i hope. a bit of "provocation" is always a good thing, i guess

[rharpe]

The bible says that "everyone has the law written in their hearts", meaning that you can be moral without being religious

Remember though, religion is the relationship between God and man. 

And there is also a reason we have laws, prisons, accustomed moral conscience... religion..
It's the only way we can survive as a society.

Very true. Survival for what reason or purpose? If there is nothing after we die, then why would survival as a society matter?   

no hard feelings i hope. a bit of "provocation" is always a good thing, i guess

None taken! Thanks for taking the time to post what you think.

I thank you all for being understanding and civil about me posting what I believe on these forums. I know we all come from different backgrounds, cultures, and countries... and may disagree on faith, morals, and the meaning of life, but the truly remarkable thing is that you didn't all gang up on me and pounce my beliefs because I don't see eye-to-eye with some of you.

It was not my intention to hijack this thread, (if that is what happened.) Shitar, I just want you to know my prayers are with you, in your time of need. God bless you and everyone here.   

[Nikolas]

Survival for what reason or purpose? If there is nothing after we die, then why would survival as a society matter?Ã,  Ã, 

Someone, may it be God, parents, nature, or pure luck, put us on this earth. Everybody will find his/her reasons for being here, may they be wrong, or right, evil, or good.

What we make of our lifes affects us, our families and maybe a close circle, however there are some exeptions, who have influenced through decades and milleniums and so many years, like Socrates, Ancient Egyptians (and native Americans, as well as Australians), Shakspear, Beethoven, Einstein, Hitler, Milosevich (sp). These people have influenced many more than their close circle so whatever they did may have been the reason for them to be here.

I think that monsieur et madame Curie changed the whole world, and for that I'm grateful. And greteful to so many others (even to you rharpe, for making me think these things).

So there you have the possible reason for someone to be here.

[Snarky]

Threads like these make me nostalgic for the rules of the AGDI Forums:

"Please do not post links to offensive content, including but not limited to pornography, racism, offensive software/games or anything else of this nature, for obvious reasons. This also includes preaching of any religion."

[passer-by]

This also includes preaching of any religion."

We'd still have to define "preaching" and "stating your religious (or other) beliefs".

[Snarky]

I don't see the difference. Beyond a simple "I'm a Christian (Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant etc.)/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Mormon/Scientologist/whatever," no elaboration is required. People who are interested can easily look up the details or send a query over PM.

And for the record, I consider myself an agnostic, in the proper sense of the word.