GTD: What's wrong with adventure games?

[eVOLVE]

Okay, I don't wanna offend anyone here, but gravyflood, I can't help but disagree that AGS games are 'better' than commercial ones because they have to enrich the gameplay to compensate for graphics and sound.

When you really think about what you're saying, you're saying that gameplay outranks graphics and sound in terms of importance, which I very much agree with... however you seem to imply that the gameplay is better BECAUSE the graphics and sound take a back seat. Sure, a game that had better gameplay than a commercial game with worse graphics and sound would be better, but you have to understand that having a large team to make a game like most commercial developers means that they can have gameplay too... it's not mutually exclusive.

For a game to have worse graphics and sound than another and still to beat it means that it MUST have better gameplay, and commercial dev teams are still trying to accomplish this too.

Sure, enriching gameplay to compensate is one thing, but there is nothing to say that many of these commercial adventures COULD be drastically improved upon, and certainly not by smaller teams of part time developers.

The important fact here is that just because we can't wow players with sound and graphics doesn't make us any more likely to succeed in enriching gameplay.

As I said, I don't mean to offend anyone, and I'm quite positive that some AGS games are and will be better than commercial ones, but just having worse artistic values doesn't make the gameplay better.

[DGMacphee]

No offence at all.

However, I'd rather play a graphically-impared game like Pleughburg than a dog's breakfast commerical game, like Myst.

Myst had pitiful gameplay and felt very limited once you got past the gloss.

It seems most commercial developers concerntrated upon graphics during the late 90s -- How do you account for the "interactive movie" boom (which was caused by Myst).

Seriously, you had several games with shitty gameplay but great gfx/FMV, including Critical Path, The Journeyman Project, and my pick for 'Dunder of the Decade', Phantasmagoria.

Graphics do take back seat.

But most developers didn't realise this during the 90s -- They thought, "Hey if a glossy game like Myst can make a million bucks, so can our glossy Myst-clone!"

So when a gameplay-enriched FPS shoot 'em up called Doom came along, most developers turned away from adventures and concerntrated on real-time 3D.

Eric's signature is right: Adventures didn't die; they commited suicide, and were assisted by greedy developers.

[Trapezoid]

I don't really consider most Myst-clones adventures. They're mostly Interactive Fiction dealies.
Anyway, almost every LucasArts game has better graphics AND gameplay than the most AGS games.

[DGMacphee]

Interactive movie are included in the genre of adventure games.

They're a sub-genre.

[RocketGirl]

Well, I have to agree that getting stuck can really detract from enjoyment of a game. Does anyone recall trying to find that cursed bridle in King's Quest 4?
Or, for that matter, a friend of mine and I spent DAYS trying to figure out how to progress in Space Quest 4, only to EVENTUALLY discover that the only way to proceed was to stand in a very specific spot in the arcade in the Galaxy Galleria where the was nothing to look at or do and no explicit or even implied reason whatsoever to go stand in that spot. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

But that's not what I want to bring up. I want to bring up something else: itty bitty hotspots/objects:

Like the golden ball in KQ4. It's tiny! Sure, the parser is text so grabbing the ball isn't a problem, but NOTICING it is!
Or in Runaway (a more recent adventure game) there have been a number of times where the thing you need to grab to be able to progress is 5x5 pixels...tops! AND blends in with the scenery pretty badly. I think there was a sewing kit in the drag queens' bus, for example, that took me two bleedin' days to find.

I see this as a BIG no-no. If you have to resort to hiding important items by making them extremely wee and not at all contrasting with the BG, that's a sign of a weak game. Sure, it's way more difficult to come up with CLEVER puzzles that force your players to think, but tough, sez I. That's what makes a fun and well-made game. If it was EASY, everyone would do it every day.

[Wretched]

Getting stuck.

Most of the gamers I know have probably played about 2% of a point 'n click at some point in their lives, got stuck, frustratedly spent 15 mins randomly clicking all over the screen and given up.  People want to be entertained 100% of the time, take every other genre of game. There is always something going on, or something to be done. Adventure games need to know when the player is stuck and start to help them out somehow. I think the popularity of Lost in the Nightmare, arguably one of the worst 'adventure' games here, 2 or 3 puzzles? and 2 or 3 hours of simply clicking hotspots, yawn. Not to take from the game as an interactive horror movie it's top marks, great story, 100% linear game play, mindless interaction. That's what people want. Mindless entertainment. Adventure games are for people who want to use their brains a bit and that is what is wrong with the games, and also what makes them so good. Sorry for disjointed post but hope it gets my thoughts across.

[ManicMatt]

What was that crazy game called, Curse of enchantia? Where you start the game hanging upside down in a cell, and ther game had NO dialog. (I think)

It was the most illogical minded adventure game I've ever played.

If the puzzles weren't obscure enough, me and my brother were stuck forever on this part inside a shipwreck or something and you had to click on a pixel to solve a puzzle. We never found the pixel, and the game remains uncompleted to this day. not as though I still have that game... it was on the amiga!)

[Nikolas]

You know, playing FPS, or something simmilar can be very appealing.

I find it much more direct. With special moves and guns and stuff you have a more direct approach to gameplay.

I've been playing ONI for quite a while now. And I like it.

Nothing to do with adventure but the pros: The architecture of the game is flowless. I can hit enemies with 20+ different moves and 8-10 different weapons. Example: Hit f onve and you throw a punch, hit it twice you hit two differnt punches, hit it thrice and the third punch knocks out the enemy.

Maybe Adventures tend to be a little boring. There is no action. There is not timing, in most of them. And all you apparently have to do is visit every room, take every object you find and use it everywhere you can find. This can be boring. Not to mention that it can be illogical to begin with! I mean you can carry limitless items, with limitless weight and do whatever the programmer has thought, but nothing else.

Of course gameplay is important. And the story is important. But the presentation adds to the whole package. Come one, Myst sucked as an adventure but graphic wise it was perfect (for that time...) There should be balance between all the ellements fo the game.

Good graphics
good music
good speech pack
good gameplay
good story

Well, if one of these are not up to todays standard then...

And actually I think that in AGS, you can have speech and music (since you can play MP3, and you can put whatever music you want). The gameplay in most games is well thought out and the stories are very appealing. But graphic wise, I would like to see something more contemporary. Don't get me wrong but I feel that if we have the opportunity to use higher resiolutions why should we stick to 320x200? Of course not all games are suited for higher resolution. And actually a lot of them looke better in this resolution than in a higher one (take for example the Amulet of Kings). Perfect! Just perfect!

But what I miss is a little evolution. A little broadening of the horizons. A little thinking as to what new could we do that could shake the world of the player. I find the ending of Prodigal to be a good example. You get a game with one or two songs in game (but in weird quality...) and music that is not exactly present, but sets the mood exactly right. The composer of the game did a great job indeed! But the ending, is a completly different story. A whole song, a very good song, a small 4-5 minute movie-like with a very good direction by the director, plus the shock of the story and all the sceneary! I find it original because of the single fact that everything is gathering for this final moments. Everything pushes you to go there. That is the peak! That is the ending! That is the whole point of the game! Form-wise you can have different directions. This takes you a little up at the beginning with moments that push you a little higher, but the whole game keeps you there at a certain level. And for a purpose! For the ending! The ending is a fast moving elevator!

I find Prodigal particularly for this but of course the whole game is great!

I just don't understand why there can't be an adventure in 2 DVD set with amazing 3d graphics and amazing music and gameplay and a story that will rock your world. I just fail to understand why...

[lo_res_man]

whats wrong with myst? yes two puzzels made me want to kill the developers, the piano, and the car ride. but all the other puzzles felt, to me, logical and meaning full. my fave is solving the transmitter puzzel in the last age. speaking of GF, what makes that game so amaizing is the charactor development. manny turns from being a cowerd who will agree with anyone to get by to being a hero. want to know a funny piece of trivia? the actor who did BRinks voice was  Robert PAtrick. This was heavly touted by lucas arts, because he had been in termanator 2. but what charactor you ask? the shape-shifter robot! and he NEVER said a WORD! So your voice actor is a guy whos most famos role has NO lines. weird world huh?

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

Myst was not just "gloss and no gameplay", dg.  In fact, it was a very open world--You could go to any age at any given time (assuming you knew how) and find bits of information about all of the characters, not needed to win but still quite interesting.  The interface wasn't too open, but you could explore and interact with the enviorment.  It only went into movie sequences when you figured out puzzles, which there were quite a few.  The ending stunk like dead plague rats, but I liked that game.

Two more things.

1.  I dislike the whole "all modern, non-adventure games suck" point of view.  I enjoyed adventure games, but was eased into it when I was younger and liked different types.  It went like: QFG5 (very rpg like, but was still kind of an adventure game) ---.QFG4(a very good game, not rpg like but still similar to 5) ---> QFG2(old style adventure game, very good game and barely similar to 5) --->5 Day A Stranger(a full fledged adventure game).  This was over a few years.  But I still enjoy the modern ones.  There are modern games which deserved to be burned for various reasons, such as Dead or Alive XBV (my friend just bought that game.  I tried to supress the want to kick his ass) or King's Quest 8 (kind of old, I know, but the ending sucked, the gameplay sucked, the puzzles were nonexistand and it took 3 hours to load). 

2.  "adventure games are not dead, they're just (insert random verb)"  In the commercial world, they ARE.  I'm sorry to tell you, but game companies aren't making them anymore.  When was the last time you heard a mainstream gamer of today talking about the new adventure game coming out?  If they're not dead yet, they're dying.  Not here, of course.  But in the commercial world?  I would go out on a limb and say yes.

[RocketGirl]

I think the issue I had with Myst was that it really wasn't story-driven. There weren't really any characters to interact with, and the plot seemed little more than a vehicle for another math-or-pattern-recognition puzzle as the game progressed.
While that may entertain some folks--and more power to 'em, I say--it doesn't do anything for me, really. Different strokes an' all that, neh?

And, yeah, I have to agree, the commercial adventure game is really a thing of the past, Runaway and The Longest Journey notwithstanding. Exceptions, both of 'em, and considering how far apart their release dates were only illustrates the point.
Not that I wouldn't mind a resurrection of the genre, but most gamers these days are much more interesting in 3D bells-and-whistles, action, and instant gratification than anything else. I say most, not all very specifically; I think the AGS community alone shows that there's exceptions...but we ain't the majority, here, folks. I wish it were otherwise.

[lo_res_man]

can anyone say "the adventure company"? I agree though with the anti "modern non adventure games al suck " argument. One of my fave games are quake and Perfect Dark Ã, (p. d. is for N64)i have played stratigy games and somwhat enjoy them, rpgs can be fun if you work on them, fighting games are great when you and a buddy want to punch something., racing games if you have need for speed. ALL genre's are importent, it just depends on your mood.

[Snarky]

And, yeah, I have to agree, the commercial adventure game is really a thing of the past, Runaway and The Longest Journey notwithstanding. Exceptions, both of 'em, and considering how far apart their release dates were only illustrates the point.

It's not like Runaway and TLJ are the only commercial adventure games of recent years. This year alone saw Myst V, Still Life, Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Another Code, VOYAGE, 80 Days, Bone Chapter 1, ECHO, another couple of Nancy Drew games and a Law & Order game. Most of these games were well received, critically, and at least one was a runaway success.

So while we're not in the golden age of Sierra and LucasArts (and Revolution, and Westwood, and Access, etc, etc), the genre is hardly dead, either.

[RocketGirl]

It's not like Runaway and TLJ are the only commercial adventure games of recent years. This year alone saw Myst V, Still Life, Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Another Code, VOYAGE, 80 Days, Bone Chapter 1, ECHO, another couple of Nancy Drew games and a Law & Order game. Most of these games were well received, critically, and at least one was a runaway success.

Somehow I've managed to miss all of those entirely. Well, except Myst V, which I really don't believe qualifies anyway unless the Myst series has changed dramatically since the first few.

I d'know, I suppose it's possible they're just not being carried by the local chain franchises or something, because when I browse EB or whatever, I just don't see traditional adventure games hardly at all. I only found Runaway because it was in the $5 bargain bin at Half-Price Books...

And, believe me, I see this as a shame! If I'd heard about them, I might have sought these games out! Were they marketed at all well? How'd I manage to miss 'em?

So while we're not in the golden age of Sierra and LucasArts (and Revolution, and Westwood, and Access, etc, etc), the genre is hardly dead, either.

Well, you coulda fooled me, honestly. Because I've been looking...and not finding.

[ManicMatt]

I cannot speak for America, but in England Fahrenheit (Or known as indigo prophecy in USA) was well marketed. It went in the top ten I think.

Still life was a poorly advertised game, being a french adventure game that gets largely ignored like syberia 1 and 2. (Enjoyed them all!)

A demo of Bone appeared a few months back on UK magazine PCZone.

80 days? As in around the world in 80 days? I played a demo of that. Bag of crap. Fetch and carry 3D game.

Also, there's a half decent 2.5D point and clicker called NiBiRu.

[Snarky]

By the way, I forgot about And Then There Were None, Lee Sheldon's (Riddle of Master Lu, Dark Side of the Moon) game from Agatha Christie's novel.

Your game store might just suck. When I've looked in Best Buy, Fry's, CompUSA, EB, and GameStop around here, there are always a few adventure games. Sometimes even a few shelves devoted to adventures. You also find a lot of adventures in the "reduced price" section of the store, since adventures tend to be cheap (and linger on for ages: who cares whether an adventure game was released last week or last year?).

As for how you missed them... Well, two of the games on that list are for the Nintendo DS, where you might not think to look. A couple haven't actually been released in the US yet (or have only been released in the last couple of weeks). One was an Internet-only release. Most of the rest were first-person perspective, which it sounds like maybe you don't like. But you should certainly have heard of Still Life and Indigo Prophecy.

Check out Adventure Gamers to keep up to date on what's going on in the world of commercial (and indie) adventure games.

As for Myst, I think it's indisputable that they are adventure games. A different style to what many people around here are fans of, but definitely adventures. You can draw a clear line between many of the early text adventures and the original Myst, and the sequels added more story and character focus that make them more similar to what we expect from adventures.

[RocketGirl]

I guess my game stores must just suck, then. I wouldn't be surprised honestly; much as I love Seattle, there are certian basic assumptions and preconceptions that are rather insidious in this town. Assumptions about what people want, preconceptions about what will or won't sell, etc. Not just in video games, but in everything. It's really weird, for a town that's supposed to be so hip.

Ah, well. I guess I'll just have to bookmark that Adventure Gamers site and order junk on-line from now on...

[Hollister Man]

I like this thread, but am not in the mood for major post yet.  BUT, I had a concept for keeping from getting stuck.

My thought was for the game to keep track of your progress, possibly by the point counter.  If you change rooms 15 times or click on 15 (just an easy number) unhandled hotspots, the game assumes you're stuck and offers a simple hint, perhaps enough to get you through, perhaps not.  (Remember the scrap of paper in Black Widow's web in KQ6?  Love...  It as the answer to the door in the underworld.  Imagine this was only given to you if you needed it.)

I've got a very specific idea in mind, but cannot really talk about it, its part of my current project.

[lo_res_man]

Ah, well. I guess I'll just have to bookmark that Adventure Gamers site and order junk on-line from now on...

try thrift stores, flea markets, garage sales, you neve know what you might find there. my mum got me asa joke gift a game she thought looked silly. it was. turned out to be eric the unready, a classic. I got  kq5 from the salvation army and the dig from a flea market. riven myst trators gate mi3 & 4 and grim fendango from radio shack. SO keep looking you never know what you might find.

[AlbinoPanther]

*LJUBI take our rubber chicken use it with a cannon and shoot at all FPS freeks

Seriusly ADVENTURES are and will be THE only games for us.