"If I Were The Devil" -Paul Harvey

[Akumayo]

-nods slowly-

Words of wisdom, you speak.
Continue this debate, we should.

[voh]

If God hadn't intended us to sin, we wouldn't even consider sinning... God is a perverse character, who punishes those he loves the most for things he allowed them to do in the first place, and is letting one of his ex-disciples take over humanity's world without lifting a single finger.

So, what would you rather have, a God who hands us everything on a silver platter, without making us work for it? A perfect world where everyone's happy and nothing bad ever happens to anyone for any reason? If that were to happen, then what would we learn? How would we grow as human beings?

I'd rather have that God would make his point clear. That is, provided He has one. We grow as human beings through our inquisitive nature. Every human has an innate need to figure things out - to learn. This is seperate from religious beliefs, as one might find something he or she wants to find in it, but there are many out there who don't search in religion, and therefore don't (necessarily) need it.

I'm not saying I want a perfect world, where everything gets spoon-fed into your mouth and being pre-chewed. I'm saying that it's entirely possible to lead a fulfilling life, a life in which you're there for your fellow man/woman in a positive way, without finding God. The impossibility of nothing bad ever happening is in itself a problem, but it's one we cannot live without.

Hardships focus a person's mind. It makes them fight harder to overcome it, or they will succumb to it. If I'm in a tough spot, I'll rethink my strategy and try harder, better and I will get out of the predicament. I know I'm not the only one who views things in this way, but as I can only talk for myself, I'll not assume that others know what I mean.

What I was trying to say with that specific paragraph was that God isn't as infallible as we're told. Not in my mind, that is. The religion you're a part of, the one you linked. There were some valid points there, and it seems that they've certainly taken a more realistic stance on what's going on in the world and how that links up to their God.

That makes sense to me. Being archaic in your beliefs and refusing to change along with the world is only going to limit your life, not enrich it.

[rharpe]

Everyone calm down. This is not a debate but a post for me to share something I felt I could agree with myself. My initial intention was for all of you to write down what you would do if you were the Devil... (in the same format/style as Mr. Harvey.) This debate came like wildfire because many people here are hostile towards morality in general. Then religion is tagged on, rharpe's an extremist, blah, blah, blah!!!

I always find it humorous when people tell me what my intentions are, when they have no clue! They interpret my intentions about as bad as they interpret the Bible.

(At least some of you caught on...)

[En garde!]

If I were the devil I would incite hatred and ignorance.

I would make lists were I blamed on myself several random things fundies seem to dislike.

I would put the options on that list on retarded dicotomies that make the reader choose between being mindless drones who must follow blindly what their church tells them or either  they would be on the side of evil.

I GUESS I WOULD PRETTY MUCH BE PAUL HARVEY!

OR AL PACINO!

EVEN IF HE OVERACTED IN THAT MOVIE!

BUT I WOULDN'T HAVE KEANU REEVES AS A SON!

BECAUSE HE CAN'T ACT AT ALL!

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

What I was trying to say with that specific paragraph was that God isn't as infallible as we're told.

How do you define infallibility? I, personally, think that God is infallible. He could make all the problems of the world disappear if He really wanted to. However, He doesn't, because doing so would be detrimental to our growth as human beings. Doing good things out of free will, after all, means a lot more than doing good things because you're being forced to. That's what I was trying to get at.

I agree with a lot of what you just said, by the way.

Everyone calm down. This is not a debate but a post for me to share something I felt I could agree with myself. My initial intention was for all of you to write down what you would do if you were the Devil... (in the same format/style as Mr. Harvey.) This debate came like wildfire because many people here are hostile towards morality in general. Then religion is tagged on, rharpe's an extremist, blah, blah, blah!!!

You never mentioned the goal of your post originally, hence the confusion. And I'm totally not hostile toward morality... am I?

That being said, if I were the devil (assuming that the devil existed) I'd outlaw all genres of music except disco. There, happy?

[esper]

Grrr.

You know, the reason there are so many atheists in the world today is because there are so many Christians. It's a zen balance, you know: group A pisses off group B to the extent to which group B decides to distance itself from group A as far as they can go. Group B doesn't hate morality, they hate GROUP FRIGGIN' A!!!! I am a Christian, but I have stopped calling myself that because I hate Christians, in general. Christians who have the intelligence to think for themselves and act like regular human beings instead of cogs in a machine get my every respect. Some of you know how I was kicked out of seminary on charges of "witchcraft," which translates to "having my own thoughts and ideas." I almost became an atheist. I decided, nah... God is cool, it's these jokers that follow Him that aren't. There's no reason to ditch God because people are stupid.

Here's some things for Christians to think about... posted by a Christian, mind you.

1) When Jesus was alive on this earth, He NEVER EVER ONCE said anything about Hell to non-Christians, unless asked about it specifically.Ã,  He didn't say "believe in me or you're going to Hell." He didn't ever say "repent of your sins, you freakin' homo!" He never once ever said anything negative to a non-believer. He saved that for the religious crowd, calling them vipers, asps, telling them they were of their father, the Devil, and at one point in time (in the temple) becoming violent with them... For non-Christians, He didn't shove anything down their throat... He showed them He genuinely cared about them, and when they accepted that He was the Messiah,Ã,  then He said, "You know, it would be nice if, since I'm going to die for you, if you could lay off the sin..." This is definitely not the attitude of Christians today. You know, if every one who ever went through a church and "got religion" were actually counted among the numbers of Christianity, the whole friggin' world would be saved. Unfortunately, I've seen assmasters like Billy Graham say "Okay, everybody, come say a prayer and you're all saved now..." I've seen a friend of mine who was a Wiccan go to church and have her ass handed to her by counsellors until she faked a conversion, ran outta there, and never looked back...

2) Although Romans 1 and the Pentateuch speak of homosexuality as being a sin, the man Jesus said had more faith than anyone else he'd ever met was a Roman centurion who came to Jesus to ask if He could heal his 13 year-old male sex slave. Jesus, I don't think, would have been altogether too happy with
these uncle fuckers.


3) Christianity + anything else = war. Christianity + Islam = the Crusades. Christianity + a few gossipping bitties in the church = The Salem Witch Trials. Christianity + people thinking for themselves = The Inquisition. Speaking of the Inquisition, why was Galileo Galilei considered a heretic for saying something that not only is scientifically correct, but can also be found in the Bible? (You know, the Bible DOES say that when it is day on one side of the earth, it is night on the other, and speaks of the "circle of the earth" being "hung from nothing" in the firmament.")

4) And about people thinking for themselves... THIS is what I'm on about. Ask any Christian why they believe something. Either the answer is "The Bible says it," or, "My pastor/priest said it." Here's some things we may be overlooking...

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth. --2 Timothy 2:15

"Sanctify the Lord god in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to
any man who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you, with humility and fear." --I Peter 3:15

"Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." --Acts 17:10

Until I can talk to a Right Wing Christian Fundamentalist who is on my level, and is capable of thinking for themselves, what reason do I have to bother listening to them? What reason do any of us have to listen?

[modgeulator]

What would you do if you were the devil? Pffft... who cares. I'd rather know what you'd do if you were Batman.

[DGMacphee]

Rharpe, we get it. You love Jesus and hate the devil.

I just posted the link because I agreed with it. Who said anything about a debate. Everyone knows where I stand on these issues... there really is nothing to debate.

Well, duh, there's nothing to debate. That's not the point. I'm guessing practically 99% of links you post are some Christian element you agree with, such as how God is missing from schools or how Paul Harvey is a super spy, etc, etc, etc.

My point is this: Move on. Try posting something that doesn't have anything to do with Jesus or God or the Christian Ninja Society. Please, please, PLEASE, I will send you ten internet dollars if you shut up about religion.

[Pet Terry]

What would you do if you were the devil? Pffft... who cares. I'd rather know what you'd do if you were Batman.

If I were the devil, I would become Batman.

[Helm]

If I were the devil... hmm...

I'd kill angel and cherub, I'd impale the head of archangel michael on his own fiery sword and ground it in the earth where I once had fallen.

I'd plague the race of man with three thousand tortures, and I'd turn the skies black with suffering. The sun would no longer rise to greet that battlefield.

If I were the devil I'd rape the bastard nazarene.

If I were the devil I would spit in the face of god, my creator and blame him. I am his son and he created me to do these things, he knew exactly from the beginning of time where everything leads. I'd blame him and laugh.

[iamus]

Mr. Harper? The new Prime Minister of Canada?

Weeeeeellll......have you ever seen them in the same room at the same time?

3) Christianity + anything else = war. Christianity + Islam = the Crusades. Christianity + a few gossipping bitties in the church = The Salem Witch Trials. Christianity + people thinking for themselves = The Inquisition.

That's not of Christianity per se as I'm sure you're aware from what you say above. War and true Christianity are irreconcilable concepts. It's money and power dressed up in religion, just one of the long list of excuses we've come up with to run each other through, ever since one monkey looked at another a bit funny. Pick any other religion (ermm.......Zen Buddhism?) and you can see it happen too. It's only because "Christianity" has been so prominent and widespread that it looks like it's the cause of so much crap.

Since I'm having fun too and this thread is thouroughly derailed anyway, I'm going to ramble a bit. Apologies in advance, and yes, this is nothing but a personal point of view.


See, the problem I have with most of this talk of Good and Evil and what God intended is that I don't think Creation is quite as clear cut as that. It's a particularly human point of view. "Sin" is just a concept we apply to things we do that we know we shouldn't, that are detrimental to the growth of ourselves and society. It's not a tangible, set in stone thing that was forged at the beginning of time by a pantheon of cosmic dwarves with really huge hammers made of stars or anything.

As a living, thinking being, you're always standing at the same point observing the world around you. In order to fuction, you have to make order out of all the infinite number of things that are going on at once. You have to put stuff in boxes of Good and Evil so you can understand how they relate to each other and then by extension how you relate to them. That's how we learn how to live and fuction with all those things. Same process as studying for school, solving a huge maths problem. See how each bit interects with the other and then intigrate them into a working model you can understand.

Really, all the labels we put on things are just different names for the same stuff. Out there in the world are infinite experiences like "finding a ten pound note in the street" and also "tripping up and breaking your back". These are things that just happen. Neither is inherently Good or Evil except in how they relate to you and those around you. In this case, one buys you a nice bag of Fish and Chips, the other puts you in traction for half a year.

To say that God has a plan. To say that s/he wants us to do one thing or the other is grafting a human way of thinking onto a process that is definitely not human. God is all of the things you see around you and inside you. As much a part of everything as anything else. Think of the whole of creation as the one big brain, putting out neurons that look like human beings and trees and office buildings and the whole spectrum of Gods that we build for ourselves. All are alive in their own ways, and they all experience the world differently. Where they meet, we get communication. Evolution.

There's not so much a "plan" as there is "growth".


Bloody hell. First thing on a Sunday and I'm not even out of bed yet.

[esper]

Yes, I'm aware of that. What I'm not aware of is why the hell you are eating fish and chips out of a bag...

[Disco]

This debate came like wildfire because many people here are hostile towards morality in general.

Where are you getting this rharpe? I would like you once and for all to define morality. I just don't see how not being Christian or religious makes a person immoral.

I always find it humorous when people tell me what my intentions are, when they have no clue!

(I find humour in that as well, right here and now to be specific .) I imagine I would say something like this to Paul Harvey should I ever meet him. I breaks my heart to believe that someone can hear a few things about me or anyone really, and from that have a detailed opinion of them without taking the time to really understand/meet them.

[vict0r]

This is the second fastest growing thread i've ever seen.

[voh]

What I was trying to say with that specific paragraph was that God isn't as infallible as we're told.

How do you define infallibility? I, personally, think that God is infallible. He could make all the problems of the world disappear if He really wanted to. However, He doesn't, because doing so would be detrimental to our growth as human beings. Doing good things out of free will, after all, means a lot more than doing good things because you're being forced to. That's what I was trying to get at.

I agree with a lot of what you just said, by the way.

And I agree with a lot of what you've been saying as well. We're on opposite ends of the spectrum, but that doesn't mean we can't think alike

I see your point in allowing sins and doing bad things, as a contrast to doing good things out of free will. As a test, it's a lot more useful to weed out the bad apples. But concerning that select few Christians who keep on going "the world is doomed, you've forsaken Christ!", I keep wondering what it is that's brought them that far. I mean, they believe in a God that's all-mighty, infallible and kind. If He truly is out there, he wouldn't allow the world to turn to shit without having some bigger plan, would He? So if that's true, why have they lost faith in that? Why're they talking about everything going bad, and from that doing detrimental deeds (that have wasted a lot of credibility of the faith. Think televangelists) if they're supposed to believe in Heaven and God and all that encompasses?

My reaction to this topic was because of what Rharpe makes me feel like. Every time I see him post, I get this feeling in my gut, and I just want to let it slip. I've done so before, but really, it's not just here it's happening. This is, however, one of the few places where it happens and there's actually a fairly reasonable discussion between those who do, and those who don't.

Which is admirable

[DGMacphee]

P.S. Why's everyone debating rharpe on this? Don't you know already he's stark raving bonkers? Rharpe, we get it. You love Jesus and hate the devil. Now be quiet and let us heathens get back to our jizz-tacular orgies!

I don't think he's stark raving bonkers. Some of the points he makes are valid. Free speech isn't limited to liberal-minded people, after all.

Got nothing against free speech for all. I just think people should quit posting the same retarded garbage you find in spam e-mails where if you don't send it to ten people in the new five minutes you won't get good luck for TEN WHOLE YEARS! Coupled that we already get the fact that rharpe thinks that we, the stupid heathens, have wished God out of existence from the Western World (read his past posts, as examples). Sure, got nothing against free speech. It's just when it becomes the same speech again and again and again and again and again... It becomes annoying.

But let's take a closer look at what rharpe has posted -- "If I Were the Devil" by Paul Harvey. All it proves is that Paul Harvey pretty much would do the same sort of shit the devil (if you do believe in a little red guy with a pitchfork waaaay below us) does. Paul Harvey is, therefore, a BASTARD!

If I were the devil, I would make it rain cupcakes in third world countries. I would also use my devil powers to erase the concept of "war" from human existence. I would also get rid of all Rob Schneider movies.

These are just a few of the things I'd do. God isn't doing them cause he's a lazy old coot. And Paul Harvey is a dick cause he'd do the same things our current devil would do. End of story!

[LGM]

Sooo... Let me get this straight:

Christians are stupid because they believe in something that may not exist.

Aetheists are stupid because they don't believe in a certain diety, but of course they believe in something else they have no idea about.

Christianity is dying because "super science" has some credible theories against creationism. (Though their theories still break the law that something can't come from nothing... hmm) And also because right-wing, close-minded extremist Christian nuts ruined the name of every sane Christian so that every non-Christian will think they're crazy and ignorant and persecuting the human race 24-7.

Aetheism is in because it's cool not being "told what to do." I mean, honestly, what Godless person has morals? They just do whatever gives them the most pleasure. Right?

Aetheists are trying to destroy Christianity, yet Christians are trying to destroy aetheism. They're efforts together only result in long ass threads that end up no-where.

Is that about right?

So what are we saying here? Eat more bananas and everything will be okay?

[Akumayo]

Wow I love reading this topic's posts.... so many opinions... I disagree, I agree, and I just ponder... but I've already said my two cents, so I'll sit out until something really infuriates me... which is unlikely...

[ManicMatt]

But let's take a closer look at what rharpe has posted -- "If I Were the Devil" by Paul Harvey. All it proves is that Paul Harvey pretty much would do the same sort of shit the devil (if you do believe in a little red guy with a pitchfork waaaay below us) does. Paul Harvey is, therefore, a BASTARD!

Hey wait I'm confused... when he put at the end of his stupid speech, "I'D LEAVE IT PRETTY MUCH THE SAME WAY IT IS NOW!!" or whatever, was he not trying to say that all the stuff he just mentioned is happening in reality? That he thinks the opposite to everything he just put, really? That for example, he actually thinks that gay people should be informed that it's not a natural thing to like the same sex? (In his flawed opinion)

[Helm]

Aetheism??