Searching For Film Nour Tunes

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

How would they go about telling countless writers that worked on that show that the secret symbolism behind the show is that americans are afraid of losing culture and having them all go "Good idea!"

Outwardly, most people these days abhor the thought of prejudice. Yet, evidence has shown that many people in our culture tend to show signs of unconscious discrimination. For example, taking an implicit association test may reveal that a person who consciously says that racism is bad actually has an easier time associating positive character traits with white people and negative character traits with black people than vice versa.

The point is, you don't necessarily have to be outwardly prejudiced to hold prejudiced attitudes. In fact, I'd wager that if it really were the case that the X-Files had racist symbolism, it would most likely be of the unconscious variety. After all, American culture does have a long history of fearing strangers, as evidenced in that cute cartoon in the middle of Bowling for Columbine. I'd say it's quite plausible that despite minorities and women being treated better than before, some of that residual fear still exists in 2006.

That being said, I don't watch the X-Files, and despite having written at least one detective adventure game, haven't seen all that many film noir movies. Therefore, I can't comment specifically on those cases.

[passer-by]

Can somebody give me examples of films/series/books that are not xenophobic, racist and all the things mentioned in this thread?

[MrColossal]

Jet, no one said you were lying, it's just no one agrees with you.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Can somebody give me examples of films/series/books that are not xenophobic, racist and all the things mentioned in this thread?

By that, do you mean stories that include no mention of xenophobia at all, or can we include stories that seem to speak out against xenophobia rather than treat it as normal?

I can think of plenty examples of the latter, but not many of the former. I think it shows that fear of the unknown is still a very prevalent problem that we're still combatting today, rather than being at a point where we can just plain act as if it doesn't exist.

[MrColossal]

Yes but would you agree that sometimes an alien is just an alien?

The same way a mexican in a movie can just be a mexican?

Eric

Unless he's a mexican't

[jetxl]

This Burns character doesn't even appear to be a very prominent critic or expert, so her status as an authority is questionable. And in any case she's merely quoting Julian Murphet. If you'd look up his article, you'd see that he's making a much weaker claim. I'm afraid if you want to argue your point, you'll have to do so yourself.

I'm doing so right now. Burns explains it detailed and deep.

And check your paranoia: I am not "hounding" you. In fact, I had to look up our posting histories to even understand what you were talking about.[/qoute]What is to expect from a small attention span.

[In The Maltese Falcon, Joel Cairo is identified as potentially gay and definetely foreign, both in his dress and manner.]

In The Maltese Falcon, Sam Spade is not corrupted by coming in contact with Joel Cairo. If there are homophobic overtones to Peter Lorre's character, and I think that's a bit of a stretch, they're just an incidental bit of prejudice from that era caught on film, just as it might be in any other film from the time. Film noir does not have an agenda of oppressing, or repressing, minorities.

I said THEME, me think.

As evidence, it's weak, weak, weak.

You first argumet is untrue, your second is redundant and your third is propaganda (repeat a simple messege).

As for science fiction and alien invasion stories, critics have pointed out a relationship to fear of all kinds of social upheaval since forever. Just today there was an article on Salon about how this seaon's sci-fi shows (Surface, Threshold, Invasion) can be seen as metaphors for interracial marriage.

(As is Kong)
Therefore one could say the X-Files is modern day noir.

Can somebody give me examples of films/series/books that are not xenophobic, racist and all the things mentioned in this thread?

Yes, [ur]=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=3085]Bobobobo bobobo bobobobo[/url].

Jet, no one said you were lying, it's just no one agrees with you.

T__T Why not? Is it the lack of smileys? I can do smileys. C|:3
Well, I found the link between noir, the X-Files and paranoia culture very revealing, since things that made me wonder are now confirmed.
If you don't believe me, then I have to try harder to convince you.

[passer-by]

I wonder what will lo_res_man make of all this...Found any tunes yet or watched some of us getting sleepy?

By that, do you mean stories that include no mention of xenophobia at all, or can we include stories that seem to speak out against xenophobia rather than treat it as normal?

I mean that films are supposed to say a story and are products of the producers' local culture. If they think a topic is catchy, they include it. If they think the opposite is even more catchy, they include the opposite. They go on in circles around the social problems, not really trying to solve them, just to get some fame out of them. Ã, I can't think of any examples of "innocent" film/book so Ã, I can demonise film noir.

Yes, Bobobobo bobobo bobobobo.

That's what I thought. So why pick at a specific kind?

[Pesty]

Yes but would you agree that sometimes an alien is just an alien?

The same way a mexican in a movie can just be a mexican?

Eric

Unless he's a mexican't

Don't you mean m***can't?

Okay, so who's responsible for spilling the Racism Bucket all over the GenGen?

jet: what why why

[ManicMatt]

Don't you mean m***can't?

Ah, shaddup already! 

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Yes but would you agree that sometimes an alien is just an alien?

Well, since as far as we know, aliens don't exist, we tend to use the concept as a metaphor for, well, anything that's mysterious and unknown. And even if aliens do exist, the way we often hypothetically react to them speaks volumes: freak out and blow them to bits because we assume by default that they're going to blow us to bits.

When you get movies with cute and friendly aliens rather than evil, destructive ones, the poor creatures tend to still get misunderstood and feared. They just can't win, can they?

The fact that aliens are even called aliens at all also speaks volumes.

[vict0r]

So if you say I'm lying, which means my teachers are lying, it proves that you don't know shit from a sunday.

So if your teacher held a banana up in front of you (you well knowing that this is a banana) and called it an orange, and said that he had discussed it with some professors(believing these are any smarter than normal people), you would blindly follow him and call it orange the rest of your life? You can not believe what someone say to you, just because they have a degree. You must question what is told you, no matter what authority the person talking to you have.

As for the sub-plots in film noirs, i could easily pull out fifteen racistic, etc themes from it, even though it actually is not the intention. Even though it is a possibility doesnt mean its true.

[jetxl]

Okay, so who's responsible for spilling the Racism Bucket all over the GenGen?

jet: what why why

I don't see how talking about ethnic minorities will stamp me as a racist. None has claimed that one is superior because its skincolor is pale/dark, so the Racism Bucket is not toppled yet. Not even shaken.

So if your teacher held a banana up in front of you (you well knowing that this is a banana) and called it an orange, and said that he had discussed it with some professors(believing these are any smarter than normal people), you would blindly follow him and call it orange the rest of your life? You can not believe what someone say to you, just because they have a degree. You must question what is told you, no matter what authority the person talking to you have.

And sometimes things are just as they appear. A teacher isn't payed to lie, but payed to tell the truth. They don't hand out doctines out of chocolate suprise eggs, they have studied for years. These people are proud of their knowlege, and want to share it. Or is this a silly way to justify bad grades.

As for the sub-plots in film noirs, i could easily pull out fifteen racistic, etc themes from it, even though it actually is not the intention. Even though it is a possibility doesnt mean its true.

It is true.

[Snarky]

I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.
I already gave some examples, but here are some more.
In Bladerunner, The character played by Ford asks someone else to translate what his partner is saying, although he could understand him. He clearly shows that he doesn't like foreigners.

1. Blade Runner is not a classic film noir. It's not even a straight modern film noir.
2. Just because Deckard doesn't like "foreigners," that doesn't mean the film has anything against them. Deckard is an unlikeable guy in several ways.

The second episode of the X-Files shows black triangular ufo's above an airbase (the aurora project). The airplanes are built from alien technoligy. The test pilotes who fly the airplanes change in personality. It you come in contact with aliens (different cultures) you will change.

This example is only evidence if you accept that The X-Files is noir. Since in a later post you argue that The X-Files is a noir show because of its xenophobia, this is a circular argument.

Based on this evidence, it would be more reasonable to argue that "minorities corrupt family values" is a message found in science fiction, not film noir.

Maltese Falcon, the book.

It should be unnecessary to point out that Dashiell Hammett's novel is not film noir. Notice the word "film" in the term? Besides, it was published in 1930, before the time period Murphet and Burns are talking about.

Happy donkey, one dimentional and only used to show that Bogart was not suburbian. Casablanca also used the term "the usual suspects," which means "pick up all the blacks". (The Marx Brothers are Jewish, and in the film A Night In Casablanca, Harpo is arrested.

This whole discussion is moot, since Casablanca is not a film noir.

And check your paranoia: I am not "hounding" you. In fact, I had to look up our posting histories to even understand what you were talking about.[/qoute]What is to expect from a small attention span.

And we're back to insults. Classy.
I guess it's hard to accept that I just don't care enough about you to remember.

If there are homophobic overtones to Peter Lorre's character, and I think that's a bit of a stretch, they're just an incidental bit of prejudice from that era caught on film, just as it might be in any other film from the time. Film noir does not have an agenda of oppressing, or repressing, minorities.

I said THEME, me think.

Actually, you said neither. You implied that noir had a xenophobic message when you said: "It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct."

If all you're really saying is that repression of minorities is a theme in film noir, that the genre brings the issue up for discussion, you'll have to explain again why you "hate Noir."

(As an aside, if you want to sound intellectual, use "methinks." "Me think" makes you sound like a cave man.)

As evidence, it's weak, weak, weak.

You first argumet is untrue, your second is redundant and your third is propaganda (repeat a simple messege).

Why don't you respond to the substance of my arguments instead of criticizing my rhetorical devices?

[Pesty]

Okay, so who's responsible for spilling the Racism Bucket all over the GenGen?

jet: what why why

I don't see how talking about ethnic minorities will stamp me as a racist. None has claimed that one is superior because its skincolor is pale/dark, so the Racism Bucket is not toppled yet. Not even shaken.

I don't know, I don't remember saying "JET IS A RACIST HE HATES BLACK BABIES" but you're really good at finding racism in things that have no racism, like the X-Files so maybe I got the point across wrong. I merely meant that you were talking about how racist film noir is. Racism is about more than just skin color, you know.

The Racism Bucket has splashed it's contents all over this thread!

[ildu]

So if you say I'm lying, which means my teachers are lying, it proves that you don't know shit from a sunday.

So if your teacher held a banana up in front of you (you well knowing that this is a banana) and called it an orange, and said that he had discussed it with some professors(believing these are any smarter than normal people), you would blindly follow him and call it orange the rest of your life? You can not believe what someone say to you, just because they have a degree. You must question what is told you, no matter what authority the person talking to you have.

I was just about to argue the same thing. So what if a couple of professors have they're own opinions. Disagreement won't reveal any sort of truth or lies. This issue is not black and white.

But I'm kinda getting confused with all the talk about individual episodes of irrelevent tv shoes and aliens and shite. Are we discussing if there is racism in film noir or not? You can basically pull any kind of connotation right out of your ass if you just go overboard with it. Surely if there's racism in film noir, there's racism in other media as well. Why is it getting singled out? Just because it's gritty, melancholic and portraying urban underdog life doesn't mean it gives any kind of negative influence over minorities. Is Boyz in the Hood or any other gansta movie guilty of racism because it portrays minorities as criminals? Is this not the exact same connect you get when you compare foreign bad guys in film noir?

And I do agree with you on some points. For example, anyone who's ever read Raymond Chandler will know that he writes in a very racist way, using the n-word and portraying minorities as second-class citizens. But I blame that totally on the state of affairs at the time the books were written. Why would this portrayal be offensive, when the situation was exactly the same in reality? During the 40's and 50's minorities were indeed second-class citizens, no doubt about it. The fact that white men painted themselves black and ridiculed blacks in various musical performances is equally racist. That's why Con Air isn't considered racist; because the state of affairs nowadays is what it is portrayed as.

So if you could humor me and state a conclusion of your arguments as bullets or something, that would be great. We're getting way off track with the random episode, racist undertone conspiracy theories. That, and aliens.

[MrColossal]

I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

[vict0r]

And sometimes things are just as they appear. A teacher isn't payed to lie, but payed to tell the truth. They don't hand out doctines out of chocolate suprise eggs, they have studied for years. These people are proud of their knowlege, and want to share it. Or is this a silly way to justify bad grades.
It is true.

The aswer i was looking for. Most teachers arent proud of their knowledge. Most teachers dont even know what they are talking about! They read something in a book, and repeat it, so that you should learn what is in the book, and get paid for it. And what if your three teachers were on marihuana the day of this so-called discussion? Have your any evidence that they were not? ANY at all?

It is true.

What a good argument! Seen as you have not said one thing that backs your arguments up in this discussion, this doesnt make any sense.

I was just about to argue the same thing. So what if a couple of professors have they're own opinions. Disagreement won't reveal any sort of truth or lies. This issue is not black and white.

This is my point. Things is not all black and white, as Jet makes it look. Sure, some film noirs may have some sort of sub-plot. But not all, as Jet claims.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

[jetxl]

I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.
I already gave some examples, but here are some more.
In Bladerunner, The character played by Ford asks someone else to translate what his partner is saying, although he could understand him. He clearly shows that he doesn't like foreigners.

1. Blade Runner is not a classic film noir. It's not even a straight modern film noir.
2. Just because Deckard doesn't like "foreigners," that doesn't mean the film has anything against them. Deckard is an unlikeable guy in several ways.

Blade Runner is not noir, hmmm.

The second episode of the X-Files shows black triangular ufo's above an airbase (the aurora project). The airplanes are built from alien technoligy. The test pilotes who fly the airplanes change in personality. It you come in contact with aliens (different cultures) you will change.

This example is only evidence if you accept that The X-Files is noir. Since in a later post you argue that The X-Files is a noir show because of its xenophobia, this is a circular argument.[/qoute]
Your culture is part of your identity. Loss of ones culture is loss of identity.
[qoute]
Based on this evidence, it would be more reasonable to argue that "minorities corrupt family values" is a message found in science fiction, not film noir.

A contradiction.

Happy donkey, one dimentional and only used to show that Bogart was not suburbian. Casablanca also used the term "the usual suspects," which means "pick up all the blacks". (The Marx Brothers are Jewish, and in the film A Night In Casablanca, Harpo is arrested.

This whole discussion is moot, since Casablanca is not a film noir.[/qoute]Hey, I didn't bring it up.
[qoute]

And check your paranoia: I am not "hounding" you. In fact, I had to look up our posting histories to even understand what you were talking about.[/qoute]What is to expect from a small attention span.

And we're back to insults. Classy.
I guess it's hard to accept that I just don't care enough about you to remember.
[/qoute]

Screw you.

A hypocrit.

If there are homophobic overtones to Peter Lorre's character, and I think that's a bit of a stretch, they're just an incidental bit of prejudice from that era caught on film, just as it might be in any other film from the time. Film noir does not have an agenda of oppressing, or repressing, minorities.

I said THEME, me think.

Actually, you said neither. You implied that noir had a xenophbic messsage when you said: "It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct."
If all you're really saying is that repression of minorities is a theme in film noir, that the genre brings the issue up for discussion, you'll have to explain again why you "hate Noir."
(As an aside, if you want to sound intellectual, use "methinks." "Me think" makes you sound like a cave man.)

"xenophbic messsage," never said that. The evil in the world are ethnic minorities. Which would make it a theme, just like a film set in space would have a space theme.
And you don't know how a cave man talks like. (I bet you claim you do)

As evidence, it's weak, weak, weak.

You first argumet is untrue, your second is redundant and your third is propaganda (repeat a simple messege).

Why don't you respond to the substance of my arguments instead of criticizing my rhetorical devices?

Why do you bring up rhetorical devices in the first place?

Okay, so who's responsible for spilling the Racism Bucket all over the GenGen?
jet: what why why

I don't see how talking about ethnic minorities will stamp me as a racist. None has claimed that one is superior because its skincolor is pale/dark, so the Racism Bucket is not toppled yet. Not even shaken.

I don't know, I don't remember saying "JET IS A RACIST HE HATES BLACK BABIES" but you're really good at finding racism in things that have no racism, like the X-Files so maybe I got the point across wrong. I merely meant that you were talking about how racist film noir is. Racism is about more than just skin color, you know.
The Racism Bucket has splashed it's contents all over this thread!

The X-Files has aliens from another world who don't get along with mankind, how more racistic can you get. If I talk about it or not, that doesn't make the facts go away.

[Pesty]

Listen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

...but you're really good at finding racism in things that have no racism, like the X-Files so maybe I got the point across wrong.

Things that have no racism at all, or things that have no more racism than everything else?

I think it's unfair to say that racism is specifically a film noir theme. I also think it's unfair to say that film noir does not contain any racism. Everything is a product of its time; racism was prevalent in the time of film noir, and it's still prevalent, though less obviously than before, today. I think ildu summed up my point on this quite well in an earlier post.

You can not believe what someone say to you, just because they have a degree. You must question what is told you, no matter what authority the person talking to you have.

Should we question what you are telling us about questioning what is told to us, then?

I wouldn't say authority is useless; if people have done a lot of prior studies and found relevant concrete evidence to support a point, it is certainly more useful than speculation from someone who isn't an expert on the subject. However, if the authority in question is irrelevant, then that's when you should be questioning. It is, after all, a logical fallacy to say that nine out of ten dentists agree that boxers are better than briefs.