Would you really define this as "vulgar"?

[voh]

Meh, even if men worship sexy women and treat them with utmost respect, the fact still remains that women face a lot more pressure to be beautiful than men do.

There are a lot of men who try to live up to the images put forth by the media - but most men just don't care about what the 'ultimate' man is supposed to be. Perhaps it's caused by the pre-feminine age, yes, but it's the choice of a woman whether or not she chooses to go with the pressure, and to try and be as close to the media view on beautiful women.

Nobody's forcing women to wear high heels if they don't feel comfortable in them. The same goes for thongs, low-cut party dresses, multiple layers of make-up, spending hours in a beauty parlor or hair saloon.

They do that themselves. The biggest part of the female population seems obsessed with being the prettiest, being attractive, finding a man who lives up to their expectations, or being the woman of their expectations. The show "Sex in the City" is a good example of this.

It's a show with 4 ultimate losers. 4 women who can't find a man and stick with them. 4 women who whine, whine, whine. 4 women who spend most of the paycheck on Dior, Dolce and Gabbana, and other high and poshy brands because that's what they think is necessary to be what they want to be.

That in itself isn't a point - but here comes the point. Every girl or woman I know loves the show. They adore it. These women are the example of what they themselves want to be - independant, strong, financially sound.

But what people forget is that in the entire show is about women who aren't so independant, because all they live for is men. Men and their quirks. They are judgemental and critical to the point of obsessive compulsive disorder. They cry, they drink (a lot), they find themselves in situations they're too old for to be in, because they're just whoring for attention.

I'm of the opinion that women should choose their own path. And I let them. And a lot choose to be objectified (I made this point in the other thread as well, about porn and such), and should then not be surprised if they're objectified.

Objectifying in itself is such a lame term. What does it mean to 'objectify'? If I objectify you, Squinky, does it take away anything from your life? Does it make you feel uncomfortable to the point where you wouldn't be able to live your life the way you want to? Or would you shrug, move on and simply ignore the comments I would make in that vein. If you do anything else than the last suggestion, I think you may be looking for trouble rather than finding it.

I think this entire discussion is totally bonkers. People have preferences. Some men like big boobs. Let them look at 'em, draw 'em, publish 'em. Some men like small boobs. Let THEM look at 'em, draw 'em, publish 'em.

If the game had a small-breasted young pretty lass with a low-cut nurse's outfit, would you have complained? No, of course not, because as you said, you're only going on this holy crusade because the boobs ARE big.

Well, gotta say, get over it.

Just.. Get over it.

It's just pixels on a screen. Nobody's getting hurt.

[Nacho]

EDIT: Wrote while Voh posted:

Inquisitive, you must recognise that the "preassure women feel for being beautiful" is being slowly trasspassed from females to males, and slowly approaching to the same level.

Now a man who takes care of his aspect is no longer seen as "girlie" (And I am not talking just about the fitness culture, which has been there for decades), but the hair-removal, the facial creams, the spas...

Not that I am against it. I do sport and shave my chest, as the greek goat can testify...

And IMO most of the aspects in live between women and men are reaching to a normal level of parity.

Which is good.

Still, IMHO a complain about an ultra sexy woman, and calling her boobs "vulgar" is an step back.

If the final goal is to reach to a point where the only differences are the ones determined by the pulses of our genitalia... Why does a woman complain of a thing that we wouldn't complain if the situation was the opposite?

If someone makes a game with a (shaped) Arnold Schwarzenegger with little underwear, we wouldn't complain. Doesn't your complain show a little bit of lack of confidence? A call for deffending something that doesn't really need that attention?

Of course there is the "We've been 10,000 years supporting the male-chauvinism, it's time to positive discriminations, to compense that!!!" thing that some old-fashioned feminists (Not refering to you) have said.

I was not there when that happened! So, I see as totally unfair to have to suffer the anger of Ã, repressed women.

And it's the freedom. When Jet put a bouncing boobs signature many people complained, including me, because it was impossible to GET AWAY of that (IMO) vulgar boobs Ã, :o. But this is (going to be) a downloadable game. If you don't like it, don't Ã, download.

To be honest, you (You, as the offended, not InquisitiveStranger specifically...) you can only "morally" call for good disclaimer before download .Of course there is the freedom of IS to complain about it in her blog as well...

[En garde!]

Talking about how big the boobs a girl has in an adventure game is  very politically correct, and as the whole political correctness movement has ably shown, it's excellent for making surface change and ignoring the root of the issues. 

Exactly! Thank you!

Meh, even if men worship sexy women and treat them with utmost respect, the fact still remains that women face a lot more pressure to be beautiful than men do. Saying that feminism has now become completely irrelevant just because women are no longer forced to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and that we should be perfectly satisfied with that and only that, is asinine.

You are missing the point: feminism becomes obsolete when women and men have (at least on paper) the same rights, and women start looking for their own cultural processes. Some of those include sexual expression. Frankly, a big-breasted nurse who is active in any story is a thousand times culturally more beneficial than your average passive Disney Princess.

Creating a culture where women are forced to never cross a certain line, to dress conservatively if they want to be taken seriously andall that crap, even if it's in the name of feminism, is just another way of being repressive.

[Raggit]

I think boobs as monstrously large as those might seem to cheapen the character, or take away from the reality of the game, if you want that woman to be a believable character.

I'd take them out (no pun intended) just because they're kind of distracting, not in an erotic or enticing sense, but a sort of, 'how does she keep from falling on her face' kind of sense.

If you're going to leave the boobs in, you could plan on throwing something into your story about how that character spent the last five years of her life raising money to pay for them.

[LimpingFish]

Im glad I went to bed last night when I did.

Eric: We both went a little skewed on this thread. No harm was done, I hope, but such is the nature of conveying points and ideas through faceless text that confusion and misinterpretations can appear on both sides of an argument.

My last post was made around 2.30am last night and my brain doesn't fire on all cylinders at that hour. Had I continued, what I thought began as a fairly enjoyable debate would have most likely degenerated into a tedious back and forth between us. I'm glad it didn't.

My points on the subject still stand, as do yours and anybody else who contributed.

Sex in video games and video game stereotypes, male and female, sexual and otherwise, is an area the interests me greatly. It also infuriates me to the point of ranting.

Still, no harm, no foul.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

That in itself isn't a point - but here comes the point. Every girl or woman I know loves the show. They adore it. These women are the example of what they themselves want to be - independant, strong, financially sound.

I don't.

Objectifying in itself is such a lame term. What does it mean to 'objectify'? If I objectify you, Squinky, does it take away anything from your life? Does it make you feel uncomfortable to the point where you wouldn't be able to live your life the way you want to? Or would you shrug, move on and simply ignore the comments I would make in that vein. If you do anything else than the last suggestion, I think you may be looking for trouble rather than finding it.

That's black-and-white thinking. Of course I would feel uncomfortable, but I'd still be able to get on with my life.

It's just pixels on a screen. Nobody's getting hurt.

Define "getting hurt".

If the final goal is to reach to a point where the only differences are the ones determined by the pulses of our genitalia... Why does a woman complain of a thing that we wouldn't complain if the situation was the opposite?

IS that the final goal? Does equality mean sameness? Or does it involve taking into account the differences between the genders, but glorifying feminine traits as equal to masculine traits, rather than seeing them as inferior?

I was not there when that happened! So, I see as totally unfair to have to suffer the anger of Ã, repressed women.

You are also a man, and therefore have no idea what women today are going through. This goes for not just you, but any other man who thinks that women are being hypersensitive. (The women who think that women are being hypersensitive, on the other hand, might have more of a point...)

Now, here's a random but pertinent question for you all that maybe someone can answer: why do we generally consider naked men to be funny and naked women to be sexy? (We, of course, includes both men and women.)

[Nacho]

Because men have been 10,000 years talking of sex without feeling of sin and women only for 30 years.

I am not saying that hypersensitive feminists are bad, don't missunderstand me, they are necessary because there is no parity at the moment. But I am saying that they are in path to extintion. The final feminist will be like Kinoko ("A woman with big tits in a videogame? who cares???")

And yeah, the final goal is to reach a parity, except in those aspects ruled by the nature, the hormones, you know? Men and women are not the same, they must behave different because they are different.

But there must be parity in every social aspect. The old fashioned-feminist who wants woman to be a copy of men, even with their defects (the burning bras feminists, remember?), is as old fashioned as the man-slave woman we can see in the "Barbie" stereotype. I perfectly agree with you.

And yes, I accept that I can't really know what a woman feels, so I might be missjudging woman's hypersensibility... But when I see "no-complain" women that Kinoko, for example, I just have to agree with her attitude.

[LimpingFish]

Nice points, Farlander. I agree.

[MrColossal]

Just to clear up a common myth:

"As far as any serious scholar has been able to determine, NO EARLY FEMINIST DEMONSTRATION BURNED BRAS!"

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/mythsofwomenshistory/a/bra_burning.htm

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

I think the most important thing to consider is
IT'S A LOW RES ADVENTURE GAME, FOR GOD'S SAKE.

It's not like she's being turned into an object by the media... she's not even real!  Just save that femenist rage for something that actually makes a difference, mabye something that lives in a place called "the non-digital world".  Look at it as pixels & polygons, like most others do.  Even those "BOOOOBS!!" comments are mostly joking.

[Raggit]

Inquisitive stranger,

What would you define as both men and women being equal?  Define it socially, not just politically.

Also, how do you define "getting hurt?"

In your view, what do you think women are going through today?

And who said that naked men are funny and naked women are sexy?  Isn't that a rather sweeping statement?

This whole battle of the sexes thing is something that amazes me.  I don't think you're ever going to abolish prejudice.  I say, as long as there is no LEGISLATION passed that is discriminatory against any race, gender, or religion, who cares about the occasional bigot who THINKS there should be discriminatory laws or rules. 

The same goes for media.  I used to be real upset the way men seemed to be dipicted on television, as bumbling, helpless oafs.  Yeah, that used to hurt me in a way, but then I decided to ignore it, because again, who cares if you run into the occasional bigot who thinks you're useless because of your gender? 

[Nacho]

Example: There is a Spanish commercial.

A man is preppairing coffee, and telling a joke at the same time. He finally finihes (the joke is stupid, but the man stupidly laughs) An auto-sufficient female voice in off enters and says: "Congratulations guys! With XXXXX coffee machine you can do two things at time!"

Nobody complained.

I can't honestly think of a simillar commercial made with female characters without riots, burning embassies and killings (well... maybe not that much... but serious complains)

And that's pretty annoying, because sometimes this ultra-sensitive women start controversies that doesn't really exist! It's like when homosexuals start the "speech" as soon as they have the oportunity. Man! I don't give importance to what you do in your bedroom, why do you so?

Or when the teacher sees there are just 4 pupils in his class of 30 people and start to complain about it... man! go to the yard, chase the pupils who are not in class, and leave me alone, me and my 3 buddies are in class, ok!!!  Sorry... there's some freudian complex here...

[Mordalles]

well, i must have sent about a dozen application forms to help with animating the main character of forgotten elements, but it seems they are just ignoring me.

[Nacho]

I don't really see the point of making public something driven by Private Messages.... If the project manager consider that the animation is ok, then it's ok. When someone asks for crits, he or she is not obbligated to apply the suggestions...

[scourge]

Mordy is joking you goof, farlander 

[Nacho]

Ok then...

[LimpingFish]

LimpingFish looks for the driver of the "Would you really define this as vulgar" wagon, and not only is the driver missing, but the horses have gone awol too! We're heading for a canyon! Oh noes!!!!

[Mordalles]

I don't really see the point of making public something driven by Private Messages.... If the project manager consider that the animation is ok, then it's ok. When someone asks for crits, he or she is not obbligated to apply the suggestions...

man, thats a good idea, i should spam them with private messages. they will break sooner or later.

[Kinoko]

"The Final Feminist", eh?Ã, 

Actually, I hate the word feminist. I hate that people think I'm either one, or I'm not. I don't consider myself to be anymore of a feminist than I am a masculinist (?), or an animilist or a... bug.. ist.

(The women who think that women are being hypersensitive, on the other hand, might have more of a point...)

Well, that would be me so I guess I have a point.

I wrote a whole bloody big paragraph about how the world has so many different cultures and this debate really only applies to the general "western" one, and how I think some women have simply grown up experiencing more discrimination than the rest of us, or that they place more emphasis on that discrimination than the rest of us, and how I myself have of course been discriminated against but I also discriminate against men sometimes and I see men being discriminated against because of their gender, and I'm on like the 6th bloody day of my period right now and I wish it'd just fuck off.

But, I accidentally pressed CTRL + Z too many times and for some unholy reason, the whole paragraph disappeared and I can't be bothered writing it again except for that little summary up there.

My point anyway, is that I think I have a pretty good attitude to this stuff, but keep in mind that I'm a bisexual with a thing for large (but not TOO large) and shapely breasts so I'm not unbiased or without my own agenda here.

However, even regardless of that, I believe people should just chill out most of the time. If some guy is honestly being a prick about someone being a woman and discriminating against her in some way, the best thing is just to make him realise he's a dickhead and the world has moved on from that shit. I think actually bringing feminism into it will just make him think he has a justified fight on his hands. Just roll your eyes and kick him in the balls. Or ignore him.

As for big tits in video games, whoopie! You don't have to like them, you don't have to play the game, you can tell the creator you think it might make his/her game less successful but then leave it at that and go do your own thing. As we've proven, kicking up a stink about these things makes them far more popular.

As I so often find myself saying, the market will work itself out. Concern yourself with what you like or don't like, and let others make their own decisions too. Of course we can try to make others see something we see that they aren't seeing, but don't go too far with it, don't get your knickers in a knot about it, just move on.

Whoever you are OP (sorry, I forget your name again), I might play your game when it comes out. If I happen to catch the release announcement, I probably will. Unless I'm too tired that day, in which case I might not. We'll see. In any case, I think you draw good boobies.

EDIT: TIS, I like you so I'm not taking a stab at you with this, but just remember you aren't fighting the good fight for all of us. You aren't every woman, just as I'm not. Let people be people, and individuals be individuals.

I happen to dislike Sex in the City, and yet I love it at the same time. I originally loved it cause they said 'fuck', then I hated it because they were all stupid women, and now I love it again because it's just cheap entertainment and well, there's lots of sex in the show. My fiance and I would both bitch about the show and then find ourselves watching it more and more. It's not that great either, I'd never buy it on DVD or anything. I just downloaded every episode of South PArk ever  There's my weekend!

[DGMacphee]

I like how you pretend to swoop down and be the sole voice of reason in this thread DG and then tell everyone they are wasting their time because there was a hurricane a few months ago.

If your main addition to this thread is "Shut up and debate something that really matters." You have an AWFUL lot of threads you're going to have to hit up and tell people to shut up in...

Yeah, I'm pretending. My whole post was a cunning ruse to fool yuo all for five days.

How about this for my main addition: "This thread is a huge waste of time." Most of the other threads that I you tell me I should "hit up" don't have seven pages devoted to whether cartoon boobs are important to plot.

My response was, "Duh, of course not. But who cares?"

Maybe if you read my post properly instead of thinking, "Oh here we go, another typical DG rant. Obviously he's pretending to be the sole voice of reason. blah blah blah."

Answer: They're pointless.

But so what?

Let me tell you a story about someone...

*swirly dream sequence*

This is even more pointless.

Why's bringing up the example of Russ Meyer pointless? It's a valid point and you've said nothing that demonstrates otherwise.

But you want to know what I find vulgar? This is vulgar: it's been revealed today that the Bush administration was warned on the highly destructive capabilities of Hurricane Katrina in a series of meetings with FEMA prior to the hurricane hitting. It's in a series of videos recently obtained by the Associated Press. Bush even says in the vids, "We are fully prepared."

Let's not even get into state versus federal jurisdictions.
Troll.

Did I say the state was unaccountable? No, I didn't. What I'm saying is that the US has an agency for managing federal emergencies and Bush said such an agency was prepared for Katrina, despite the fact it wasn't.

And don't call me any of your mother's pet names.

No debate in Gen Gen can actually make a difference.

It can raise some consciousness about issues. There's potential in such forums. But, hey, believe what you like about the forum.

DG, that was just a cheap way to turn an unrelated conversation into a political gen-gen crapfest, one that usually ends up with me acting like an asshole, and everyone else being pissed off at each other.  So you think that people don't care enough about something that happened?  Don't hyjack a thread in order to say your little political bullcrap.  Start a new one, or better yet, tell it to people in a place where it'll actually matter.  You wrote the rules in GenGen, i should think youd atleast know the etequitte.

I'm not hijacking a thread. I'm using that as an example of something else you could be talking about.

But according to you, it's political bullcrap. Debate the boobies for all I care. Let's not turn this into a political crapfest. Let's leave it at a regular crapfest.

It's not like Gen Gen hasn't seen it's share of serious threads...the Stanley Williams execution, the Mohammed cartoons, etc.

And that's the thing: I'm proud of people debating that. But when it gets to stuff like this thread, it makes me ill. I think to myself, "Do people actually spend their time debating stuff like this? Seriously."

Maybe this thread grew so fast because people are relieved it's only about boobs.

Could be.

Then maybe what DG should have done is read this thread,

Did that...

the AG thread

and that...

and OGSquinky's blog

and that too!

and see that only 1 person called the breasts vulgar. One person. I searched this thread and all the other ones for the word vulgar and I saw just about everyone saying "I wouldn't call them vulgar." "Gratuitous maybe, vulgar, no..."

I noticed. I also noticed that the topic of this thread was "Would you really define this as 'vulgar'". Hey! That's the first thing I wrote about. HOLY SMOKES!

So DG should have directed this rant to JohnPaterson on the AG forum since he's the one and only person who brought it up. You could make a case for saying that Snarky called them vulgar but only if you don't read his thread at all and just search for the word "vulgar".

The rant wasn't only directed at JohnPaterson but anyone else who shares his view. It was on-topic ( and sure I came in late, but six pages in two days!) and no one has said anything to disprove what I've said other than "dg you have a potty mouth and to talk too much about political bullcrap. stfu you crabby old man!"

But if you read my second part, which was more about the later point that was brought up in this thread (i.e. are gratuitous boobies necessary), you'll see from an example I've given that my point of view still remains: "They're unnecessary, but so what? It's no big deal!"