Stephen Colbert

[Nacho]

That's, and sorry about this, both of you are pals, a silly discussion. The amount of freedom in every country where a real democracy is stablished and strong will always be almost the same, IMO.

Going with extreme examples makes the discussion even sillier. Maybe in the USA there are more gunfights in the streets. But... Since when that is an expression of lack of freedom? That's an example of how different our societies are.

If we change the topic "Political killings" We, as european had three in the last year, as far as I remember (Pim Fortuyn, Theo Van Gogh and the Suede Prime Minister? Was she the primer minister, or the former Prime Minister? sorry, I can t remember...) Europe 3- Yankees 0. Must that mean that "We like to kill politicians!" therefore, we have less freedom than the Yankees"?

In my opinion, no.

But, if example 2 is not valid... Example 1 is not either, IMO.

My point. We can't mesure freedom propperly. We would need a divine machine to meassure it. But the "You can be killed in a street of America, so, there's less freedom than in Europe" sounds to me like a manifesto stalement to me.

Same with "The only place with more freedom than America is the Gobi, Sahara, your mom's ass and the moon"  But as I didn't really catched it, I decided not to post about it. 

Because I would probably be mocked by my bad English if I attempt to reply to something I haven't totally understood...   :'(

[big brother]

After this statement, immature in diction as in sentiment, you seem both amused and surprised that I didn't get your "point" (but please, pretty please, feel free to enlighten me about this point of yours).

I didn't realize this was going to be so obtuse. I attacked a generalization with specifics. If you want to tell me that there are countries that have more freedom than America, please list them. Create a working definition of freedom, and tell me why these countries have more of it than the USA. I'm not saying that they don't exist, only that I haven't been to them. In almost every one of my replies, I've tried to clarify and ask for examples, but you seem intent on feeding me bullshit. Who's really immature here, buddy?

The goofy list was a reference to the TV show that I put in paranthesis in my original post (Mr. Show).

And yeah, thanks for the fencing put-down. Next time you might want to spell "provocative" correctly when you're trying to make me feel uneducated. Mortal Kombat isn't a good reference for learning English.

[Nacho]

I strongly demmand (Pray) English-natibe members not to point the typos of the non-natibe English members, because I would probably habe to abandon this community due to my bad English, if that happens...

And my vad grammar.

[flame]And, anyway... if you have freedom is because our guys did their job in Normandy, if not, you'd be talking German, at this moment!!!111111one!!!![/flame] 

I was joking... 

[Timosity]

Silly Debate about freedom, as it is impossible to judge as it is totally up to what you think feedom is as suggested in this thread.

I agree with Farlander in the fact we can't measure it.

I live in a pretty free country, if not one of the most free in the world, and when it comes down to it, (as with any country) different States, Counties, Province's, Councils have different rules or laws that contradict even the major laws of the country, making it even more impossible to judge.

As with feeling safe walking streets, anywhere, it depends where you are specifically.

I know in Sydney where I live there is almost a drive by shooting everyday (according to the media) which was never even heard of a few years ago (or not reported in the media) but these, generally, are usually in very specific areas. I know I'm safe around where I live (until some wanker feels the need to go on a killing spree)

Oh yeah, I've never been overseas, but as with the position and size of my country (and budget) I've probably been to the equivalent of most of Europe or Most of America etc, which has nothing to do with this topic.

So I can't comment on experience of Freedoms, but I feel comfortable.


The only thing I can see more free in the USA is the gun laws (which in turn is the oldest excuse in the history of existance[which causes less freedom more death and more gaol {jail} than anywhere else [freedom, i think not]) Still having states with the Death penalty makes it even less free, who has the right to take a single life, especially supposedly christain people.

The only other thing I can think of is the freedom to vote (which is really the freedom not to vote) which is used and abused by polititians, which is how people like Bush can get power [freedom, I think not]

There are many flaws in the interpretation of freedom, it only exists in apple crumble with extra crumble

[DGMacphee]

I didn't realize this was going to be so obtuse. I attacked a generalization with specifics. If you want to tell me that there are countries that have more freedom than America, please list them. Create a working definition of freedom, and tell me why these countries have more of it than the USA. I'm not saying that they don't exist, only that I haven't been to them. In almost every one of my replies, I've tried to clarify and ask for examples, but you seem intent on feeding me bullshit. Who's really immature here, buddy?

The goofy list was a reference to the TV show that I put in paranthesis in my original post (Mr. Show).

It's a little ironic you mention Mr Show and also say you claim not to know about countries that are freer than the US in the same post. Ironic because David Cross lists a bunch of countries that he thinks are freer than the US on his album "It's Not Funny".

He says:

"Seriously, if the terrorists hated freedom, the Netherlands would be fucking dust! As would Denmark and Sweden and Switzerland and New Zealand and Canada and every other country that's truly freer than we are."

I guess what I'm saying is you're shooting yourself in the foot, big brother.

BLAM! Arrg, your foot! It's bleeding!

[Nacho]

Yes... Let's recognise that your reply is a perfect dialectic movement, Daniel!

It points the irony of BB's mentioning Mr. Show, and stales the fact that Mr. Show thinks there are other countries with more freedom.

But you don't position yourself. Do you think Mr. Show is right or not?

[DGMacphee]

The fact I don't mention which "side" I take somehow diminishes my point of view? Bullcrap! I'm stating there's a little hypocrisy here. If big brother is going to define a certain standard, there should be some consistancy. But what I think is irrelevant in regards to that particular point.

But if you want to know my position just for the sake of wanting to know what I think, I'm leaning more to Andail's way of thinking. The way we determine freedom is a subjective thing because everyone has different values on certain issues. And when people enforce their values upon others, it no longer becomes liberation but subjugation.

Case in point, the US using the threat of terrorism and WMDs to scare people into common values. As Bush said, "You're either for us or against us". That's not freedom. And there are many countries that don't do this.

That's not to say the US is on the bottom rung of the ladder; for example, the US doesn't lock journalists up for speaking out against their government, unlike China. But there are rungs higher in a lot of other aspects.

[Nacho]

I wanted you to position in one side or another to start the discussion, moron!!!Ã, 



I am into Timosity's position them.

[DGMacphee]

Hey, don't impose how you value moronity upon me, you fascist! 

[Nacho]

Hey, don't impose how you value moronity upon me, you fascist!Ã, 

Fortunatelly, moronity can be meassured (unlike the freedom):

http://www.nerdtests.com/ft_stupid.php

[big brother]

He says:

"Seriously, if the terrorists hated freedom, the Netherlands would be fucking dust! As would Denmark and Sweden and Switzerland and New Zealand and Canada and every other country that's truly freer than we are."

I guess what I'm saying is you're shooting yourself in the foot, big brother.

I only used Mr. Show as a goofy reference. I have not watched/listened to everything Odenkirk/Cross/Silverman/etc. have their names on.

This is not an example of shooting myself in the foot. I never said that there AREN'T places more free. Please read my last post more thoroughly and focus on my question rather than any obscure comedic reference.

BLAM! Arrg, your foot! It's bleeding!

This is quite ironic, considering your misuse of the idiom. Looks like you're the one who just blew his foot off.

DGMacboy: Oh God, my foot is gone. Oh fuck me up the ass, why did I just do that to myself! (wails hysterically)

[Nacho]

Sorry BB, if I missunderstood that.

But, even recognising my bad English, if someone says "There are places with more freedom than America", and you reply quoting a set of "weird" places (Such as deserts and asses), I think I am not totally crazy if I believe that you have been ironic!

Anyway... as said, sorry.

[DGMacphee]

I only used Mr. Show as a goofy reference. I have not watched/listened to everything Odenkirk/Cross/Silverman/etc. have their names on.

This is not an example of shooting myself in the foot. I never said that there AREN'T places more free. Please read my last post more thoroughly and focus on my question rather than any obscure comedic reference.

I did read what you said. You challenging Andail to provide an objective list of countries that are freer than the US.

I pointed out, since you quoted Mr Show, that such a list already exists by your standards.

Hence, you shot yourself in the foot with your GOOFY REFERENCE! HYUCK HYUCK!

I never said you don't think there are or aren't countries that are freer than the US. I just said you claimed not to know about any countries since you're asking Andail for a working definition and a list of countries. I can only assume based upon what you write. Perhaps you could elaborate a little more, so Andail and I can actually understand instead of trying to read your mind because, try as we might, we haven't perfected our telepathic skills.

Looks like you're the one who just blew his foot off.

Wow, you totally GOT ME with your crazy pointing-out-of-a-misuse-of-an-idiom-that-I've since-pointed-out-is-actually-correct-usage! Better call my my mother cause... sniff... I-I just don't think my fragile ego can take this! WAAAAAAAAA! *stomps away and kicks the cat*

Oh God, my foot is gone. Oh fuck me up the ass, why did I just do that to myself! (wails hysterically)

Heeeeeey, you're being sarcastic, aren't you?

[big brother]

Maybe I had taken that a bit far.

I seriously am interested in hearing about people personally experiencing greater freedom in a certain country than in America. Perhaps this needs its own thread.

I think we can strike Switzerland off as a candidate, since mandatory military service for males from the time they turn 18 to 65 doesn't strike me as "free".

A few others may be disqualified, due to high taxes (the US actually has some of the lowest personal income taxes in the world: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P148855.asp?GT1=8011).
(from article, single with no kids)
Belgium - 55.4%
Canada - 31.6%
Sweden - 47.9%
Denmark - 41.1%
US - 29.1%

Still depends on the working definition, that being said.

[Nacho]

In addition, I've recently heard in the news that the skadinavian countries, which are supposed to be the most "peacefull and civilizised" in the world, have the highest ratio of agressions inside of the marriage. It really shocked me, but I can swear I heard it.

So, would that beated women think they have more freedom than a non-beaten yankee woman? Probably not. But, as said, this is just an isolated data... It means NOTHING. I go on thinking that discussin which country has more freedom is like discussing the sex of the angels.

[Haddas]

We have high taxes, but we get alot of stuff for free. Like healthcare and food in schools.

[big brother]

Your money goes farther on individual items (like consumer goods and services) when you spend it yourself. Money in the government has to pass through many layers of bureaucracy. This system works for buying expensive things like jets, but is inefficient for lunches.

This is a total hijack. Perhaps a moderator would split the threads.

[Haddas]

We believe that even the poor should have the right to service

[Tuomas]

Now after I read Haddas's reply, it struck me...

Finland has no freedom. You know, we all go to school, eat the food given to us. After that was try and get into a uni, some people don't because the tests are hard on certain occasions. Then after we go to work. Umm... some people don't get work and live on social security until they find one. When you grow old you get pensioned and start getting all, well, illnesses, well these you have always. So basically you go to hospital. The school and the food there is paid by taxes. The unis are paid with taxes. The social security money for jobless people and pensioned is paid by... taxes, and the health care is paid by taxes.

Ã,  Ã, Now I get this doesn't sound quite free. It's silly having to be the one to pay for other people being old or getting sick or educated. Think of it, say for example in USA, at school you get to decide werther to eat the food that's sold at schools or the food you want to buy. Then you can go to uni if you will... pay for it. Which is understandable, hey, the American dream, you can go as up as you will, just a bit of cash here and there will help. AND, you get to decide if you want to have health care or not. we don't, we all pay for it, you can deicide if you want the insurance or not. Or, if you don't WANT to pay for it, why not die, you have the freedom to do that.

On one thing I find Finland more free though. In here, if you murder someone as your first crime, you get something 7 years, if you're underaged, correct me if I'm wrong. And in the USA 10% of black young men are in prisons. Now I understand this completely. Hey, they had the freedom to choose between being a corporate chief or a drugdealer/killer, it's their fault.

What is truly unfair, that the rich make more money as they deserve, they're better beings, but for christs sake, they have to pay more taxes. Now I raise my voice for their rights, come on, after taxes they still get more money, but they should get even more. After all, it's their right as better beings. It's called progressive taxing, as a poor, I like it, but some poeple don't... now I don't see this killing of freedom everywhere.

Oh yeah, I forgot. We have compulsory DEFENCE forces for men at 18, as does Switzerland. basically, we do our service in 6-12 months, some fools more. That's just discrimination. But USA for that matter, they have ATTACKING forces full of poor people who have decided to live the american dream. You knew, the army pays for the education, and if they're not willing to pay (cheap bastards) the least they can do is go and kill themselves for the others who have money. Now that's freedom. I'm surprised how sad things are here in Finland. I claim for one that Finland could never be as free as the United States of America. Well at least we're not in NATO yet... which actually would make us a perfect subject for terrorist bombing.

enough said

[Haddas]

Without taxes I couldn't afford education. (Think of us poor people)