Female Gamers & Creators

LimpingFish · Sat 30/09/2006 20:56:50

Aside from the Helm v MrColossal v DG Macphee personal shitefest, and the smartypants joking, in which I too, I'm sad to say, have played a small part, I think the confusion in this thread is based on a mass failure to grasp the original point made in the first post.

Not that a game made by a team of female designers would be better than one made by male designers (to which a lot of replies seem to have been targeted), but that it would be different.

D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T.

And if the gobshites who play the old "What about a game made by males?! Huh?!" reverse-sexism card, a card almost as useless as the "I refuse to acknowledge that men and women might be different!" one, could just reel in the Salmon of Stupidity dangling on the end of their mental fishing rods, then maybe we could talk about the subject without embarassing ourselves.

Queen Kara · Sat 30/09/2006 23:12:50

Quote from: Raggit on Sat 30/09/2006 03:14:36
My few posts in this thread were very joking, but all mirth aside, I'd like to play a game where I couldn't tell whether it was made by a either a male OR a female. Something with a deep story that
appeals to humanity in general, not select groups.

Couldn't that be done with enough work, time, and thought?

I agree but I also think there should be more games geared towards females ( not like the goofy commercial crap although I am ashamed to admit I sometimes enjoy those games too except of course for the overuse of Pink and the idea that we'd only be interested in ultra girly games about shopping and hairstyles...lol ) because , like I stated , there just aren't enough games about queens or female knights and stuff and way too many games about male knights and princesses. ( no offense meant to anyone who's made a game like that in fact I loved that knight and squire game even though it kinda annoyed me at the same time it was funny too...lazy lazy stupid knight doesn't deserve to be a knight...lol )

Quote from: Venus on Sat 30/09/2006 19:10:59
Quote from: Queen KaraSo , how many guys here are interested in creature / child raising simulations and romance novels? lol
Err, isn't it a little stereotypical of you to think that this is what females are generally interested in?

Well , it seems to me that the majority of people who are interested in such games are male ( if we're talking about hentai / ren'ai games for guys or whatever ) or female ( if we're talking about a game where you actually have to be romantic ) , although I don't mean anything in a bad way , I'm quickly learning from everybody here about various things....like how I word certain ideas. lol
That's why I asked how many guys here would actually be interested in creature / child raising and romance games. I didn't know.
*blush*
Guys ( and the girls that have stood up for the guys...bravo ) , I'm sorry for any stereotyping on my part. You know that since I hate it myself , I wouldn't want anybody to think such things about me , right?
I know I could be , have been , am , and will probably wrong about some things.

"Not that a game made by a team of female designers would be better than one made by male designers (to which a lot of replies seem to have been targeted), but that it would be different.

D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T."

EXACTLY! Thank you. I may not be a great wordsmith all the time but points like that are what I'm trying to make here.
I love different.
Different is good.
( unless of course it's truely bad....like wearing ugly clothes to a formal gathering...lol )

The other day I fell down the stairs ( I only had a few scrapes , a bruised ego , some pain and shakiness for awhile...the scrapes are still there to remind me to be careful again but of course the pain and all that is gone ) and then I was housesitting as a favor to my brother who was supposed to be housesitting for my mom and stepdad but then he remembered he had something else to do , heh , that and my out of touchness with AGS things had / has kept me from checking on forums and stuff. I forgot and I'm sorry.
My website is veeeerrrrry oooold.
So apoligies for any missing / broken links and stupid crap like that that you may come across while visiting if you're bored enough to visit. lol
Thanks to a few people bringing it up , I promise there will be a new section up soon dealing with the projects I have in mind for AGS and other game related stuff. Since it will be new though don't expect too much but please try not to think "oh it's not going to have much so it's not going to be worth visiting" either...you may be surprised. I'm very good sometimes about finishing things.

Should you decide to visit , thank you.

Been playing The Elder Scrolls : Oblivion alot lately.

The falling down the stairs thing....man , it was funny and scary at the same time.
Life is so weird. lol
Sometimes I get so focused on something though that I kinda neglect my own safety and that's what happened...I was wanting to talk to my brother about the housesitting thing , and thought he was upstairs then from his talking back to me and seeing him downstairs I realized he was downstairs , I started to come down the stairs and at some point that's when I fell down. He says it's probably because I was on the edge of the step , trying to turn around or whatever , and then forgetting I was on the edge and turning my foot the wrong way ( or something like that ) that caused me to fall. *blush*
Of course , mundane things such as taking care of dishs and laundry get in the way of things too.
I haven't drawn much of anything in a long time....for various reasons.
But I do still work on things from time to time.
Ok , so now everybody knows the funny / scary thing that happened to me the other day and other stuff and why I've been out of the loop for so long. lol

Raggit · Sun 01/10/2006 01:41:25

Queen Kara,

By saying that there ought to be more games geared towards females, do you mean that there should just be more female playercharacters, or geared towards females in story and gameplay? Or both?

I myself would love to find more serious adventure games based on romance and love. I don't believe that things dealing with emotions and romance are just for girls and things with explosions and action are just for boys. If it's fun or interesting, I'll play it.

I agree that what commercial games there are for females, most are crap, with their little pink boxes, and stuff.

DGMacphee · Sun 01/10/2006 03:42:09

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 30/09/2006 16:51:29
I like how helm has a bug up his ass but you seriously can't take jokes i.e. Progz's post.

But I did take his joke, and I retaliated to ProgZ in non-serious manner. If I took his comments seriously, I'd say "What?? How fucking dare you say that about my penis! You have wronged me, sir, and I challenge you to a duel! etc etc" If you actually think my response was because he wounded my ego by talking about my penis and I took it to heart, then please dunk your head in a barrel of water until you realise "hey i'm a goof whoops!".

It's just some barb-trading. Get over it.

And in actual fact, I appreciated he at least made a joke, even though it was a little hamfisted. But at least he wasn't serious, unlike you for example.

But hey, check out SSH's response to me if you want a good joke at my expense. And my response to him was a sign of praise. Way better than a penis joke.

QuoteJust don't apologize to him in the thread you insulted him in! That might mean you'd have to lighten up and not take things so seriously which... is exactly what you're accusing people in this original thread of doing! Oh my!

Another one of Colossal's "hey you're doing what you're accusing others of doing" Only flaw in your argument is I'm not taking this thread seriously. Try and find some actual hypocrisy for a change instead using of your super-duper ninja debate tactics.

Oh my, indeed, you ass!

QuoteIf you'll look back, by the time you entered this thread all the hooplah was over.

Great. But I wasn't joining on that hooplah. I was commented about the hooplah. And I thought the hooplah was pretty dumb because it was over NOTHING. Thought it needed to be said.

QuoteI look forward to your attack.

You're looking forward to my attack? What is this? High school? Are we to meet at the flag pole after lunch and duke it out to see who gets to take Judy out to Good-Time Burger tonight? Are you freaking kidding me?

I actually have this picture in my mind of you with your dukes raised to the computer screen going, "I'm ready for you DG! Just try something, man! It is soooo ON, motherfucker!" Also, in the same mental image, you're wearing Napoleon's hat. Do you own such a hat? Or do I just have a vivid imagination?

Queen Kara · Sun 01/10/2006 04:03:26

Quote from: Raggit on Sun 01/10/2006 01:41:25
Queen Kara,

By saying that there ought to be more games geared towards females, do you mean that there should just be more female player characters, or geared towards females in story and gameplay? Or both?

I myself would love to find more serious adventure games based on romance and love. I don't believe that things dealing with emotions and romance are just for girls and things with explosions and action are just for boys. If it's fun or interesting, I'll play it.

Both. I agree with you that stuff isn't always just for one gender it just seems alot of times that there's a definate divide....which is sad. I always find it cool when a guy admits that he likes romantic movies or raising games and stuff like that and when a woman admits that she loves blowing stuff up and running over people with her car in games. Hehehe.

Candle · Sun 01/10/2006 04:37:21

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 25/09/2006 19:20:50
I just can't see what someones' sex has to do anything with the abilities or talents... No idea???

Anyways...

I do know that the females I know have done a magnificent job with the games that they are working on and have done in the past (Kinoko, The Ivy etc...) so I'm fine with that. Plus more games! More games! No need for a verb!

MORE GAMES!

Hear Hear.........
Well siad.

Erenan · Sun 01/10/2006 08:19:42

Regarding target audiences...

Personally, I view the design and creation of games to be an art form, and as an artist I don't feel that I'm really operating with an target audience at all, or at least, not intentionally. If I draw a picture, it's not aimed at anyone. If I write a progressive jazz metal opera, it's not aimed at anyone. If I create an adventure game about a shrunken golfer, it's not aimed at anyone. It is what it is, it says what it says, it does what it does, and anyone who plays it can enjoy it or not as they see fit. And that's pretty much the way it ought to work, at least insofar as this is art that we're creating.

On that note, I suppose I have to acknowledge that some works of art really are intended for a specific audience, even specific by gender, such as many movies, and I also suppose that's probably fine. So a target audience isn't inherently absent from game design either.

But on that note, why have a target audience at all? In terms of commercial games, game developers and producers are usually interested in making a profit. As independent developers who primarily create games without profit in mind, we are totally free to concern ourselves with other things, such as artistry.

Although after all of this, I should point out that I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from anything. I'm trying to encourage discussion, and that's the honest truth.

Nikolas · Sun 01/10/2006 08:30:14

As an artist as well, I sometimes do think of the target audience. I don't believe that an artist just does what (s)he wants and don't care about anything, because "art is calling", or something.

I write different stuff for my PhD, for the theatrical plays, for the documentaries and for computer games. And it's not only the medium I'm working on that precludes me from using
the same technics to everything. Different purposes, different audiences. You have to take it to account. But not become a slave of it!

That said, I have been pondering if a woman would do a different job that me, or Erenan, or Geoffkhan, or anyone here, wirtting music. From the examples I've seen, the answer is no she wouldn't...

But the same does not seem to apply in art, or story making.

I can see differences between the art of loominous, or Andail (for example), and Kinoko and Mash potato on the other. And I do have to put it down, also on the genre difference.

Story wise again I see differences and no matter how different and masculin Zale was, still I think that it is the womans' touch that made it the amazing game it is!

Scripting, all is rubbish. The Ivy asked for hlep from Vince (a male!!!! :O).

My point: I don't care, but I do see a reasoning behind wanting to do something 'all women', although not all game related areas, need to be 'only women'.

Erenan · Sun 01/10/2006 08:37:04

I agree with you, Nikolas, but you're emphasizing my point. Yes, different purposes and different audiences exist, and yes, we need to take that into account. But my point here is that in creating AGS games we're NOT bound to making games for anyone in particular. By and large, we're not doing this on commission. By and large, we're not doing this for a grade or as work for a degree. Most of us do this because we enjoy it, because we are drawn to it, because we love it. There's a lot of freedom in that.

Nikolas · Sun 01/10/2006 08:41:40

Yes indeed... I'm not disagreeing with you!

Just stressing your points and adding a couple of mine

ManicMatt · Sun 01/10/2006 10:45:24

Quote from: Queen Kara on Sun 01/10/2006 04:03:26
I always find it cool when a guy admits that he likes romantic movies or raising games and stuff like that..

Oh, okay.

I loved Harvest Moon on the PSone! Yesterday I bought kingdom Hearts 2. I used to play the
sims on the PS2 all the time. There we go!

I also own a video called "Martha, meet Frank, Daniel & Laurance", which is a romantic comedy!

(I also have Highlander, chop their heads off!! Just needed to create a balance.)

Vince Twelve · Sun 01/10/2006 11:53:13

Quote from: Nikolas on Sun 01/10/2006 08:30:14
Scripting, all is rubbish. The Ivy asked for hlep from Vince (a male!!!! :O).

Actually, Vince emailed The Ivy to offer help before she even knew who Vince was... but whatever.

Queen Kara · Sun 01/10/2006 13:45:53

I love Kingdom Hearts but it has many elements to it ( not just the cute relationships ) so I don't see how it's got anything to do with this discussion. ( not meaning that in a bitey way...just a little confused lol )

Yeah , I know it's probably silly of me to think that way but I do think of games like Harvest Moon being something that girls are probably more interested in than guys since you take on the role of farmer. Even though there's been two sides of the series ( the main one which you have to play as a male farmer ) , even as you're playing a male farmer you feel like not many guys would be interested in the game.

I hate coding but it's nice when you get it right or get help.
Back when I was into trying to make dreams for Furcadia , the only person I really knew that could help me with stuff was male. Over time I figured out some stuff on my own but I need to try again sometime to make sure I know what I'm doing. I need to relearn how to do the actual coding part though since it's been so long. Sigh.
I'm really grateful for any help but at the same time I feel bad when I can't figure things out on my own....

"But on that note, why have a target audience at all?"
I understand your points to a certain degree but at the same time I stress again that there don't seem to be many games here that are geared towards females. Sure , we can choose not to have target audiences and just make whatever we want but then we may lose some things that way. If you're always trying to make games that can be enjoyed by both genders , then you have nothing to worry about. If you usually make games that even you think only guys / girls would be interested in , you should try and mix it up a little. Even though I intend on making alot of games female-centered , I also intend to mix it up alot. Wether you're making a game or creating a piece of art for a website , often times you do have to think about a target audience when you're not creating the piece solely / mainly for yourself rather than for others. If you make a game for yourself , then you only have yourself to please. If you make a game that you're wanting others to play , then you have to think about whether or not they'll like this or that. Even if we're not doing this for money , we're still doing it for somebody to check out our work and get their opinions on what's good and what isn't , right? Even if we're making a game just to get something out there , depending on what the game is about , whether consciously ( ack spelling...ok fixed...lol ) or not....there's still a specific audience in mind....

ManicMatt · Sun 01/10/2006 14:00:07

Oh.. I just happen to know more girls who are excited about kingdom hearts than guys!

Harvest moon has an addictive quality to it, where your mind is always at work, thinking about your next plan of action.

Queen Kara · Sun 01/10/2006 14:04:16

Really? That's a little surprising considering all the action sequences in KH.

Then again , it is "cutesy" in alot of ways
and there's lots of things that can be imagined about it
( such as thinking of certain characters as being more than friends even though they don't really show the relationships that way in the games....lol )
so I can see how it would more of a girl thing.

Renal Shutdown · Sun 01/10/2006 16:14:43

So, er..
Will you be calling the group FAGS?
I'm sure some folk already have the monopoly on that.

Note:

I'm a dude. I loved Harvest Moon on the SNES. My favorite movie is a romantic comedy. My favorite color is pink.

I also like breasts and Chuck Norris.

That said, if this does take off, then I wish y'all luck.

Chicky · Sun 01/10/2006 16:31:35

You sound like an emo.

Erenan · Sun 01/10/2006 19:52:20

@Queen Kara: Since what it appears you're really interested in is games of a certain nature, may I suggest that if you form a group, you may do well to do it with that specifically in mind rather than making it about girls making games for other girls? I think it would be most effective if you and a few others work on developing some ideas for something like a mission statement or a set of guidelines dealing with what characteristics you want present in the games produced. And then form the group around that manifesto. Then it would be about producing a certain kind of game, rather than about certain kinds of people.

LimpingFish · Sun 01/10/2006 21:44:19

I don't think Queen Kara ever stated that she wanted to form an all female group to specifically make games for a female audience, but rather to make games from within an enviroment where views and ideas can be discussed from similar standpoints.

And as supposedly un-pc as lumping all females into one "point of view" dictated simply by their sex is, chances are a female creator will see a character in a different light than a male creator would.

Would Gabriel Knight have differed if conceived by a man? Would gamers be questioning his sexuality? Would he have been so "fey"? Or would he play more like George Stobart or Indiana Jones? Did the fact that he was conceived by a woman actually make a difference at all?

Answers on a postcard...

Erenan · Sun 01/10/2006 23:56:09

As for Gabriel Knight, I have no idea as I've never actually played any GK games.

As for the other stuff... Okay. I think my suggestion still stands, however (or even in agreement with what you said), and I'd be very interested to see what sorts of ideas would come out of it.