Stop the evil!

Snarky · Tue 12/12/2006 05:19:50

Yes, I am also not convinced that these games are actually notable by Wikipedia standards (probably with the exception of The Shivah, because of that indie gamers conference and general press).

Also, I think it's considered bad form, and may be against Wikipedia policy, to call on an outside community for backup in an AFD vote.

"It is considered highly inappropriate or unacceptable to advertise Wikipedia articles that are being debated in order to attract users with known views and bias, in order to strengthen one side of a debate. It is also considered highly inappropriate to ask friends or family members to create accounts for the purpose of giving additional support."

While many of us may already be Wikipedians, and wouldn't have to register accounts to join the debate, we are present here on this forum as a group with relatively predictable views and biases. So the paragraph seems to apply somewhat.

I know SSH didn't mean to do anything underhanded. I'm just warning everyone about a relatively obscure Wikipedia rule, so that we don't inadvertently get our fingers burned. As long as we're open and honest about it, we can probably even participate in the debate.

DGMacphee · Tue 12/12/2006 06:25:07

The solution to this is pretty simple.

Andre the Nerd is complaining about "No reliable source to support notability". Simple, just find reliable sources that support notability of the subjects and add them as references. Links to evidence of the AGS Awards might be a good place to start. Plus any game review websites would help too. Perhaps links to any page scans from gaming magazine articles on indie adventures. Everyone help out SSH as much as they can.

Just because the articles don't have any references to support notability, doesn't mean they should be deleted. It just means the articles need a fix-up. According to Wikipedia's editorial guidelines, we're allowed to do this. It says "please improve the article if possible" on every flagged article. Let's improve them.

I urge everyone to do what they can -- find as many professional sources they can and add references to them in the articles.

P.S. His comedy is the worst I've seen from an open mic comedian. And I've seen a lot of open mic comedians. "hey here's something about chocolate chip cookies and people with OCD" blah blah blah next time he should try adding something new to his routine like, oh I don't know... jokes?

[Mod edit: Name removed for anonymization]

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Tue 12/12/2006 07:45:21

One option would be to use the AGS wiki article and post noteworthy games as sub-articles below it, such as ags award winners and such. That would eliminate any problems I think. The sub-articles can contain all the important info from the current entries, couldn't they?

SSH · Tue 12/12/2006 08:42:25

I've edited the first post to simply ask for improvements to articles. I actually had a PM from someone asking how to vote and my reply was "If you don't know how to vote, you probably shouldn't at my behest"

m0ds · Tue 12/12/2006 10:54:53

He has his website/company mentioned on Wikipedia, what makes it noteable? Just one single online New York times article. If that makes it eligible surely these games that have been reviewed at online websites are way more noteable. Yes, these articles may not fall strictly into the Wikipedia guidelines but it's not like the information in these articles is untrue or innacurate.

Anyway, I'm just interested to see what happens. As it's been mentioned, we do have the AGS wikipedia at the end of the day.

[Mod edit: Name removed for anonymization]

blueskirt · Wed 13/12/2006 17:29:39

Not to play the devil's advocate, but while I think some of these articles deserve to be on wikipedia, I do find some to be kinda redundants. All of Yahtzee's games entries could easily be put in one single article about Yahtzee. Same for Dave Gilbert's games which could easily be both in his entry. There are some that do deserve to be deleted since it's simply nothing but pimping or because it's simply not notable enough in the amateur adventure game community, thus don't have their place on wikipedia.

It's good to see that while the guy seems to be full of himself on his website, he is at least consistent to vote "Delete" on his own wikipedia article.

m0ds · Wed 13/12/2006 22:09:44

What does it mean when it says "citation needed"?

Wikipedia's terms & conditions all feature far too bigger words for my little brain to understand, and looking them up on dictionary.com returns even bigger words for explanations...

LimpingFish · Wed 13/12/2006 22:12:25

I think it's if you quote someone or something, you need to link, or at least note, where the quote came from.

I think. $:-\$

JimmyShelter · Wed 13/12/2006 22:17:44

When you claim while editing an entry, you need to cite a source, so people can verify the claims added to article. This especially holds for things few people know.

m0ds · Wed 13/12/2006 22:19:35

Thanks Chris, that makes sense. The two on Yahtzee's page are

QuoteSome players have argued that because 1213 was developed using AGS, its controls are not fluid or intuitive enough for an action title.

and

QuoteUp until Trilby's Notes, Croshaw relied upon RPG Maker's included MIDI files for musical accompaniment. Some argued that these fantasy-inspired songs didn't mesh well with horror or science fiction games. In response, Croshaw enlisted outside help for the music in Trilby's Notes. That game's soundtrack, composed by a well-known member of the AGS community, was received warmly by players

So I was just trying to work out what it was they needed. It appears the deletion note has gone from his page too.

Snarky · Thu 14/12/2006 05:14:40

If the claims are mentioned in reviews of the game, that would be a good reference. Other possibilities include interviews with Yahtzee, or his own statements on his website or in the games' commentaries.

If there are are no sources like that, you're essentially left with the option of linking to forum threads. Wikipedia generally doesn't consider those to be reliable or noteable sources. The statements may be removed as unverifiable. If there isn't any verifiable material in the article, it may be deleted.

I'm pretty sure these statements can all be referenced.

SSH · Thu 14/12/2006 11:40:43

I'm in the process of getting 7 Days a Skeptic reinstated. I will suggest that the Days series of games gets merged, actually. Looks like some of the votes have been won by "keep". I also have already reinstated The Adventures of Fatman...

I didn't make any effort for Masters of Sound, though....

Radiant · Thu 14/12/2006 13:39:14

If you want the series merged, just start a new section on the 5DAS page and add it there. If you need any of the information that was on the now-deleted 7DAS page, please drop me a PM.

MillsJROSS · Thu 14/12/2006 13:43:44

Personally, I don't really care that much if these games are deleted. Mainly because we have our own wiki http://americangirlscouts.org/agswiki/index.php/Main_Page that we don't update nearly enough. This could definitely be fleshed out a lot more that it has, and I'd rather see more content here, because anyone who's truly interested in AGS games will eventually stumble upon this site, and we don't have to worry about notoriety, or, hopefully, copyright infringment.

-MillsJROSS

SSH · Thu 14/12/2006 13:48:41

Quote from: Radiant on Thu 14/12/2006 13:39:14
If you want the series merged, just start a new section on the 5DAS page and add it there. If you need any of the information that was on the now-deleted 7DAS page, please drop me a PM.

You mean like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amaccormack/7_Days_a_Skeptic

I've been talking to the admin who deleted it on his talk page and he gave me the contents, which I have improved. I'm just waiting for his go-ahead before I reinstate the page.

Gord10 · Thu 14/12/2006 16:50:16

I hope they see CNN website as a reliable source

Edit: And probably; an article, I wrote about freeware adventure game developing with tools like AGS and WME, will be published in Level, one of the most famous game magazines in Turkey (and aslo Czech Republic and Romania) for the October issue. Maybe also it can be considered as a reliable source, too; when it is published?

Andrevan · Tue 09/01/2007 23:59:30

I'd just like to cross-reference the discussion/flamewar at http://www.chefelf.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5894 in case anyone's interested.

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Thu 11/01/2007 21:43:14

Heh, I only recognized "Andrevan" after I read the link you posted to.

I have to say that all I know from this situation is what I've read in this thread and in the thread Andrevan just linked to. What I see is mostly a misunderstanding, which in the previously linked thread was blown WAAAAY out of proportion - I feel so good knowing something like that won't happen here.

At any rate, when faced with so many insults, legitimate questions and godknowswhat, it seems to me Andrevan answered them all in the best way possible, and I really can't see the person who wrote those replies as being the horrible person you'd think after reading some posts.

Ali · Sat 10/10/2009 22:18:05

I just discovered that the wikipedia entries for Nelly Cootalot and the Adventures of Fatman have been marked for deletion and are due to be deleted on the 12th of October!

It reminded me of this thread so I thought I'd revive it. I don't really use Wikipedia and I suppose I can't claim Nelly is all that notable, but the article is far better referenced than some of the other pages marked for deletion.

If any of you chaps/chapettes feel that this is a little harsh, maybe you could let me know if and how it could be appropriately challenged.

m0ds · Sat 10/10/2009 23:07:44

There are so many references, why would they do it? My only advice is link to JPEG's of these games reviews in magazines (if they exist). But still, Wiki mods are part of the twat revolution and sadly unstoppable.

Stop the evil!

m0ds

m0ds

m0ds

Andrevan

m0ds