Sexuality issues

MrColossal · Mon 30/04/2007 00:50:00

The Ivy, that also adds to it. People don't actually think about their arguement. They just say "2 men can't raise a baby! the baby needs a woman!" but no one forces a single father to get married to a woman so the baby "grows up ok". I wish they'd try to pass that bill so it could be hammered back faster than.. jello shots at an after prom party?

Tuomas · Mon 30/04/2007 00:58:16

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Mon 30/04/2007 00:40:38
QuoteBlacks and jews are not races of people, Steel Drummer!

What are they, then- religions? :

Well, yeah, jews are jews due to their religion, blacks on the other hand one might consider a race different from us white anglosaxian protestants WASP! or those.

Quote from: Zooty on Mon 30/04/2007 00:49:56
just to add some facts, Tuomas, Gay People in Britain CAN get married, outside a church obviously, but married nontheless.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4497348.stm

Thanks Zoot. And yeah, I should have known, they can too in Finland. (Don't know where I mentioned this, but still) But as it is, most people a marriage isn't the same if it's not church wedding or a religious one. Think of two men who believe in God but can't get married, now that would suck.

And to two men raising a child, I've read/heard of studies that point out that a present mother isn't vital for an infant no more than a father. Take this one made in the Jyväskylä University of Applied Sciences in Finland, where the researcher interviewed healthcare professionals about "two mother and two fathers", and came up with positive attitude in general. True enough, it might seem weird to the kid's friends, but if it was legitimate, it would prolly be more common and then not such a taboo after all.

Sam. · Mon 30/04/2007 01:02:15

Well in that case, its a matter for the church, and since the church (in general) are bad at mind changing, im guessing it will never happen.

Mr Flibble · Mon 30/04/2007 01:24:23

There's a guy called Peter Singer who reckons that beastiality is gonna be the next big taboo to become acceptable. He does raise a good point when he says that homosexuality was once treated in the same way as zoophilia. Not that I'm comparing the two. Obviously animals can't provide any sort of meaningful relationship unless they have abstract thought, so in that respect it'll never catch on.

I think that human sexuality isn't black and white, but a gentle myriad of soothing greys. And then you have people who'll get turned on by sex itself regardless of the people involved.

Personally, I honestly don't care. If you want to have sex with your toaster, feel free if it makes you happy. If you love a man, or a woman, or maybe even your dog :p , then go have fun with that. Heterosexual relationships mean a LOT more to people than just reproducing, so why should there be anything wrong with relationships with no biological outcome?

Tuomas · Mon 30/04/2007 01:29:26

Quote from: Mr Flibble on Mon 30/04/2007 01:24:23
If you love a man, or a woman, or maybe even your dog :p , then go have fun with that.

You reckon the dog wouldn't mind?

Dan_N · Mon 30/04/2007 01:40:16

Quote from: Tuomas on Mon 30/04/2007 01:29:26
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Mon 30/04/2007 01:24:23
If you love a man, or a woman, or maybe even your dog :p , then go have fun with that.
You reckon the dog wouldn't mind?

The dog really has no choice, does it...

EagerMind · Mon 30/04/2007 01:58:27

Quote from: Tuomas on Mon 30/04/2007 00:39:54I didn't know of such, in Finland when two people are married or living together, they're considered individuals, which means the main principles in the law are that both still have separate loans, taxes, wages, etc. Then of course you too have the marriage settlement, but I suppose that goes only when/if breaking up.

It sounds like what Ivy is talking about is something along the lines of what is known here in the US as the "marriage penalty" when in comes to paying our federal income taxes. Basically, married couples generally file their taxes together as a single family. In some cases - specifically, I think it's when one person in the family generates most of the income - the family will pay more taxes than if they filed separately as individuals.

But she raises a good point that many of the benefits of our society - retirement benefits, health care, estate inheritance, others that she mentioned, and I'm sure more that we haven't thought of - are based on the notion of a "traditional family" and as a result are intrinsically discriminatory. As just one example, health care in the US is usually provided by one's employer, and covers not only the employee but his/her entire family. As a result, it becomes quite important (and very politically charged) in how we legally define a "family." Similarly, a married person with a working spouse might be able to obtain a larger loan than a gay person living with a working partner since the recognized "family" will include a larger pool of assets.

Of course, a common tape-and-bubblegum solution is this idea of "civil unions," which seem to provide all the benefits of marriage without calling it marriage.

Tuomas, I also thought this National Geographic article discussing homosexual behavior in animals and its implications for human sexuality might be an interesting and informative resource for your speech (and this discussion in general). I think it's a very powerful argument against the "homosexuality isn't natural/right" defense.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

The Ivy · Mon 30/04/2007 02:30:05

Yes, the marriage penalty is one very good example of discrimination being written into a policy. Heh, don't get me started on healthcare. Millions (around 40 million, last time I checked) of low wage individuals can't even get coverage, never mind their families. Finland's system sounds like it would make "family" much less of a political battlefield. Sounds like a better solution to me.

Tuomas · Mon 30/04/2007 03:34:53

Well yeah, we do get free healthcare paid by taxes and provided by state, so there goes the need for marriage in these cases, but let's not go there.

The article is very interesting, though I did know if such behaviour on animals too. But it's always good to know more, and I believe there's something here for all of us.

deadsuperhero · Mon 30/04/2007 03:59:49

(Cracks fingers)
Right-o. Time to share my views.
I have nothing against gays. I used to oppose gay marriage, but the more I think about it, the more I realise we should allow it. Sure, its different. But giving women any rights whatsoever was frowned upon once.
And to those of you who oppose it, chill.
They're not telling you to gay-marry someone. Besides, homosexuality isn't some contagious disease.
What's really sad is how transgendered folk are treated...

Blackthorne · Mon 30/04/2007 04:38:44

The only thing I have against gays is their fabulous ability to dance.

'Cause everyone knows the Gay agenda is REALLY to spread fabulous dance.

Bt

Tartalo · Mon 30/04/2007 04:48:41

It's almost impossible to talk about penalized sexual life without getting into Religion, but I'll try.

When Gay marriage was discussed in the Spanish parliament, the conservatives brought an expert to talk against it. This psychiatrist that claimed to "cure" Gays vomited a bunch of retarded and disordered ideas (Edited: these ideas) and not only gave the Government no other choice but legalizing Gay marriage, he also put his professional career in danger.

Transgender is considered as a disorder, the person is suffering inside his/her own body, not only because of social misunderstanding. In Spain, public health will practice gender change operations if the psychiatrist recommends so. Anyway from my ignorance I imagine these people would still suffer even if irrational social pressure dissipated.

Babar · Mon 30/04/2007 12:16:24

It's weird. "Marriage" is something set up by religion. I don't know why it was religion as opposed to anything else, but it was religion. Now generally, the mostly dominant religions are against homosexuality. Why would a homosexual couple want to get married? Because marriage now has been taken over by everything else. Separation of Church and State....suuuuure.

(Outside religion) Why should there be the concept of marriage(as the semi/permenant union of two individuals of the opposite sex) at all? Why not a union between two of either sex? Why not a union between somebody and their dog? Why not a union between 3 people, or 4 people or 10 people? Why not forget the concept of any such union completely?

Aside from the marriage bit, it infuriates me how the world just cannot act normally. Everytime something goes "publicly" humongously wrong, a "wrong" is committed in the opposite direction. I understand, gay people have been surpressed for a long time. I understand, they feel enjoyment in being able to come out and not hide anything. But then they have these movies where the (usually) female protagonist has her wonderful gay friend who lives upstairs/works nearby, who is (obviously :

) in the fashion/interior decoration industry, has "incredible" fashion sense, and walks funny.
I don't understand. Does the fact that you prefer sleeping with someone of the same sex dictate these other, completely unconnected factors? Does the fact that homosexuals have been surpressed for so long mean that I have to be offended by these one-dimensional, absurd characters, who's only character trait is that they are "gay"?

About adoption, I'm curious...are single males/females are allowed to adopt?

Meowster · Mon 30/04/2007 12:56:40

Marriage existed before christianity, I think, and it also exists in non-christian countries and cultures. The idea that Marriage is an exclusively christian/religious thing and that is why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry, is absolutely ridiculous and one that's thrown around far too often.

In fact, nowadays many people who get married aren't religious at all. If I was to marry my current boyfriend, we wouldn't do so in a church or under the eye of god yadda yadda yadda.

I have no idea what you mean by the rest of your post, though.

As far as I know, single parents are allowed to adopt children so long as they can prove they can adequately support the child in a stable environment, ie not be at work all day and not earning enough money to support them. So it's actually pretty rare, because it's a rare situation to be in...

Tuomas · Mon 30/04/2007 13:12:21

Quote from: Babar on Mon 30/04/2007 12:16:24About adoption, I'm curious...are single males/females are allowed to adopt?

I can only speak for Finland since I don't really know, but I think I forgot to mention in the first sentence, they are willing to aid single women and lesbians to get babies of their own (through pregnancy). But when it comes to adoption, only registered couples can adopt in Finland. That would be if there's two of you who are adopting. I couldn't find it in the adoption law, but I should thing considering the way that sentence was put, a single person can adopt. There's no mentioning homosexuals there at all, and I don't see why there should be. But yeah, a couple must be registered, but singles can also adopt. As far as the parents of the child agree to it.

Tartalo · Mon 30/04/2007 13:35:21

Quote from: Babar on Mon 30/04/2007 12:16:24
About adoption, I'm curious...are single males/females are allowed to adopt?

Initially yes, in Spain it's possible for a single person to adopt a child. But it doesn't look like easy, as it's considered that a single person will have more trouble to grow a child alone than a couple.

Babar · Mon 30/04/2007 14:37:06

Quote from: Meowster on Mon 30/04/2007 12:56:40
Marriage existed before christianity, I think, and it also exists in non-christian countries and cultures. The idea that Marriage is an exclusively christian/religious thing and that is why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry, is absolutely ridiculous and one that's thrown around far too often.

I wasn't only talking about christianity, infact, you'll notice, I said religion. I wasn't referring to nowadays either, I said "set up". I'd be very interested in hearing about any culture where the concept of "marriage" didn't originally have the hand of that culture's major religion in it.

radiowaves · Mon 30/04/2007 15:10:51

Face it, homosexualism is not normal. Its a freakish side effect of nature. Vagina and penis fit with each other, anus and penis doesn't, at least without hurting anyone and without lots of lube (which applies to circumzision too).
Now, if a child is raised by homosexuals and he grows up without seeing the man-woman relationship, the odds are, the child turns gay in the future. Child is a learning organism, he adops most of his parents personalities and therefore he may not understand the man-woman relationship.
Plus thechild may suffer through community, what do you think how the other childs react when they hear that poor boy/girl has two fathers or two mothers?

And gay marriage is pointless. Most of gay people switch partners often, have sex with HIV positives and just care about sex. I am quite shure that married gay couples are still going to have threesomes etc, and that makes marrying quite pointless. It also applies to hetero couples who like group action...

I suggest you watch Gaspar Noes "Irreversible" to undrstand what the most part of gay community are (not for people who has weak nervers).
I once saw some TV show where they interwieved a gay club owner and camera showed the rooms of the club (not in clubbing time ofcourse). I'd say these kinds of parts are not in any normal clubs...

And religion has nothing to do with this, it is just common sence. History has shown us that religion is so bendable and most of the people who believe in church word by word are just fucking tools, thats all. I am not atheist btw.

Meowster · Mon 30/04/2007 15:26:04

Quote from: radiowaves on Mon 30/04/2007 15:10:51
Face it, homosexualism is not normal. Its a freakish side effect of nature. Vagina and penis fit with each other, anus and penis doesn't, at least without hurting anyone and without lots of lube (which applies to circumzision too).
Now, if a child is raised by homosexuals and he grows up without seeing the man-woman relationship, the odds are, the child turns gay in the future. Child is a learning organism, he adops most of his parents personalities and therefore he may not understand the man-woman relationship.
Plus thechild may suffer through community, what do you think how the other childs react when they hear that poor boy/girl has two fathers or two mothers?

And gay marriage is pointless. Most of gay people switch partners often, have sex with HIV positives and just care about sex. I am quite shure that married gay couples are still going to have threesomes etc, and that makes marrying quite pointless. It also applies to hetero couples who like group action...

I suggest you watch Gaspar Noes "Irreversible" to undrstand what the most part of gay community are (not for people who has weak nervers). I once saw the TV show where they interwieved a gay club owner and camera showed the rooms of the club. I'd say these kinds of parts are not in any normal clubs...

Oh dear, radiowaves... you really are ignorant.

People don't choose to be gay. If that was the case, why would children of two fundamentalist christians turn out to be gay? In fact, 99% of children who grow up to be gay, live with heterosexual parents. The idea that a child would turn out "gay" because he grew up with gay parents is a ridiculous statement to make, a completely uneducated and ridiculous statement. How old are you?

QuoteI am quite shure that married gay couples are still going to have threesomes

Again, what a horribly untrue thing to say. I work with many gay men right now; not one of them is this promiscuous, dirty stereotype that you seem to think all gay people are. One of them has been in a relationship for the past 6 years. Another has lived with his partner for the past two years.

You are "quite sure" that many married gay couples are still going to have threesome? What are you basing this on?

I'm quite stunned at how quickly people will stand up and making the stupidest of comments without really knowing what they're talking about.

And gay people are so careful about STDs these days, that they're a lot safer than many hetero people I know, who regularly engage in casual sex with strangers. Lots of straight women these days seem to think that being on the pill is sexual protection enough, without thinking of the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases. To assume that unsavoury and unsafe sexual practices are exclusive to the gay community is ridiculous.

Can I please see statistics that prove that "the odds are" that children turn gay if they have gay parents?

I'd also like to say that you're wrong about the penis and the anus not fitting together. They do, very well indeed, and anal sex can be a very pleasurable experience for both parties involved... male or female. I know this from experience. You, on the other hand, are simply making up a bunch of bullshit.

Please don't bother posting in this thread if it's simply to make uneducated comments. You'll be quickly shot down by people smarter than you, and it's going to waste everyones time.

The comments you're making, are the equivelent of me saying:

I saw your profile and that you're from Estonia. Estonia is a 3rd world country, isn't it? I'm surprised you even have the internet out there. Everybody out there is uneducated... I'm not surprised you have such ill-informed views. Estonians don't stay in school past the age of 12... at that age, they're made to work on the Paddy Farms with their parents. Maybe you're so paranoid about AIDS because AIDS is so prevalent out there...

Steel Drummer · Mon 30/04/2007 15:33:55

How many more married gay men couples do you see getting AIDS than heterosexual married couples?

And why do you people think that bestiality is okay? $:-\$

Quote
Everybody out there is uneducated... I'm not surprised you have such ill-informed views. Estonians don't stay in school past the age of 12... at that age, they're made to work on the Paddy Farms with their parents. Maybe you're so paranoid about AIDS because AIDS is so prevalent out there...

How do you know enough about the country to make assumptions like that? I think in a place like Estonia, there'd be less gay people, because they don't have perverted sexual ideas fed to them...