How much do you earn?

[SpacePirateCaine]

Like some of the others who have contributed to the thread, I was a teacher until very recently as well. I think I was very much in the same boat as Vince Twelve is now, as he lives and teaches in the same country as I do, though mine was a private sector language school, which very recently has gone down 'the tubes' as it were. Due in no part to the fact that Nova (My previous company) was falling apart faster than Xebes at the end of Metroid, I changed my job and began working a month and a week ago as an IT Executive search and recruitment consultant (Or head-hunter, if you like).

Basically, I turned to head hunting because I'm planning my future, and as much as I loved teaching, in order to bring back to Japan and support my girlfriend, who lives full-time in Korea, there is a fair bit of money necessary in that transaction. The Base salary at my company is 280,000 yen a month - modest, and generally paying better already than a teaching job - but the commissions are where the big money comes from. For every candidate I place into a client company, my company receives 30% of their first year's projected on-target earnings, as a signing bonus. I pick up 30% of that. Coupled with milestone bonuses, I'm looking at anywhere between 6.2 and 9.6 million yen a year.

The flipside of this, of course, is that head-hunting is soul-destroyingly hard work. If anyone's taken a moment to think "Where's SPC disappeared to?", it's the trenches of head hunting that did me in. I work on average 11-hour days, filled with cold-calling, sourcing, candidate meetings and resume-writing. It's one of the most aggressive and cut-throat sales markets out there, and I've never worked so hard in my life.

The point of it all is, in order to make that money, I have to work damned hard. Teaching isn't hard work, as far as I can remember, and I did it for 6 years. In my experience, and humble opinion, money is directly proportionate to how hard you have to work to reach your targets, or how rare your skills are. My position has also given me some very deep insight into the supply and demand, as it were, of IT professionals. The perceived worth of engineers, versus salesmen, versus marketers or administration - the skills that make someone worth a lot of money.

Put quite simply, people don't prefer to give a lot of money to teachers, because they have a more general skillset. That's why a university student can teach math to a high school student. Of course the professional will make more money because they understand teaching theory and have a license to do business, which the freelancer doesn't. Likewise a University professor makes much more than a high school teacher because they are much more specialized, and have a rarer skillset. A university physics professor is to a semiconductor engineer as a high school teacher is to a marketing communications professional.

Hope that made some sense.

[RickJ]

That's a rather cynical and arrogant statement. 

My statement in neither cynical or arrogant, it's just a simple fact of life.   If you offer to sell your car for $50 you can bet the farm that nobody will come along and give you $5000 for it; just ain't going to happen.   I've been in my own consulting business for nearly 20 years and I have yet to have a client who offered to pay me more than what I asked for.   Don't get me wrong, it would be great if I got paid what I think I'm worth but it just ain't going to happen.   

You can not measure how much people are worth simply by how prone they are to go on strike. 

You pretty much put a value on your own work when you were studying to be a teacher and knew what salary would be offered and were willing to continue studying and eventually accept a position at that salary.  Obviously if you didn't find that salary acceptable  you would not have accepted it.   Clearly at some point you must have believed that was a fair price for the work you would be doing.
I just can't help but be curious about what has changed for you between now and then?   

There can be various reasons for why you'd want to give people the money they deserve.

This discussion isn't about the poor, sick, infirm, injured, or other unfortunate individuals in need who deserve our our compassion and/or help by virtue of our shared humanity.  I can't think of any other reasons why I would or should give money away to anyone other than my family.   

Raising standards in schools should be a priority to everyone, and one way is to stop cutting their budgets. People are less inclined to do a good job if they feel they're overlooked or too badly paid.

Are you saying that if everyone gets paid more money whether they do a better job or not, that some how the quality of their work will improve?  Come on, you can't really believe that?  In the real world people are held accountable for the quality of their work.  If Andail consistently does a better job than Rick the he gets better raise in pay than Rick.  The boss doesn't come around and say to Rick, "You know you have been performing rather poorly for quite some time now.  If you don't get your ass in gear pretty soon and do a better job I'm gonna... I'm gonna have to... to raise your salary, you lazy fool.".     Were I a betting man, I'd wager that your union and your school district are not in favor of policies such as merit pay, school choice, private school vouchers, standardized testing, or any other mechanism that would hold the schools and teachers accountable for the quality of their work. 


Andail my friend, I wish you well and hope you find your path to the happiness, fulfilment, satisfaction with with work, life, etc that everyone deserves to have.  I've found that everytime things get going really well for me and I get a little over confident and a little too pleased with myself,  life has a way of coming around and slaping me down and putting me back in my proper place.  When you get to that happy place just remember to maintain a smidgin of humility so as to not run afoul of cosmic justice.   

[Peter Bear]

The pound is still a used currency ?? lol :p

[Pumaman]

Teaching isn't hard work, as far as I can remember, and I did it for 6 years.

Um ... I know a few people who would disagree with you rather strongly there. Perhaps you had the good fortune to work in a school with well-behaved kids, but the stories I hear about teaching nowadays from friends of mine sound like they have a much harder time of it than I have in my IT job.

The pound is still a used currency ?? lol :p

Salaries look huge in US$ ... I had an instinctive "wow, you're rich" reaction to a couple of posts before doing the conversion

[Peter Bear]

[in france]
In cities, beeing a teacher is harder than beeing a cop ...

You have no fighting courses in college , When you are a cop, you do ( actually no college needed to be a cop lol )

But teachers do not win much here, as school is a "public service" , you are paid by the government, and earn, well, almost nothing  

University and private schools teachers win more.

[SpacePirateCaine]

Thank you for pointing out that flaw in my argument, CJ. Let me clarify my point: Teaching as a profession - the skill required - is not difficult, but it is taxing. When I taught little kids who were hyperactive and didn't want to listen, it was often very hard. It's 'hard work' insofar as there is a lot of issues regarding managing the kids you teach. I won't disregard that particular difficulty - but as you pointed out, the difficulty stems from luck of the draw. The profession in general, however, only requires that a teacher has the skill to instruct others in a general field of skill. To teach high school math, you need a knowledge of the mathematical concepts that you will be teaching. Granted most math teachers will understand much more deep concepts than the average layman will, but the fact remains that these are concepts that you learn in high school, so aside from general teaching courses, a math teacher only needs to know what they learned in high school.

This is going to sound very condescending, and I apologize to anyone offended by this. I have the utmost respect for teachers, and as I said before, I was one for a long time. I did my degree in Linguistics, and became a language teacher. It was a lot of work, and I don't want to belittle anyone's hard work, but I'm making an objective statement about the general value of learned and acquired skills.

All work is 'hard' in its own way, but some jobs' difficulty stems not from the personal ability of the person, but outside factors. That's why physical labor doesn't pay well - it's not something that has to be learned over a long period of time. To put it in a vulgar sense, "anyone can do it". The people who end up getting paid more are the people who show skill in a specific field within their job. People who can lead, manage, plan or have shown particular dedication and efficiency in their job. People receive higher pay to compensate for the relative rarity and perceived value of their skill. That's why you will make more in the IT field, CJ, than a high school teacher is likely to. I don't think it's "right", I'd rather teach than do what I'm doing now. But I'm trying not to make it a personal thing.

[Andail]

RickJ, in your quest to hand out advice to me, in a manner of unsurpassed patronage, you seem to miss my points. I'm gonna make a numbered list to clarify myself.
1. I'm not dissatisfied with my own lot, nor do I yearn for more money. I was happy when I was working for less money and I'm happy now. It seems alien to you that I can detach my personal wellbeing from this discussion.
2. I'm running this case because I think teachers over all are badly paid, and I do think this fact affects the situation in the schools. I think if people feel overlooked and wronged they'll lose confidence and comittment, in the end perform worse. This notion is also completely beyond you.
3. It's cynical to say that a person is paid fairly just because that person and his/her peers still do their job. For instance, I think care workers should be paid more, because I think they do a very important job - nursing the really old and weak, and I think even a small raise could help improving the standards. I'm happy that in your country there seem to be no debates regarding health care (and the cases of maltreatment therein) or childrens' ability to read, write etc.

Rick, try to elevate yourself above the coorporate mechanisms and look at society at large. And please review your posts in the future and tone down the condescending approach. You're not speaking to your son here.

[Nikolas]

I think that what I'm about to say will sound rather bad... But anyhow, this is what I think, and I have a hunch that I'm not alone there.

Teachers, while doing a valuable job, and actually teaching is one of the core professions in a society (dealing with the younger generation), well we've got to agree that it doesn't take a huge ammount of knowledge to know. Of course teachers have to have a Bachelors (at least in Greece, but in the uk?) but other than that the knowledge they deliver stops to what an 18 year old learns.

Under this oversimplified idea, a university professor should earn more than a teacher (as he does), and a professor teaching postgraduates even more.

It doesn't take specialized knowledge to teach a 15 year old thus a lot of people can do it, which creates antagonism and problems.

I know, very very well, that it's NOT easy, in fact is damn hard, but this does not mean that it should be paid more, at least it's not that straight forward.

[Pumaman]

we've got to agree that it doesn't take a huge ammount of knowledge to know. Of course teachers have to have a Bachelors (at least in Greece, but in the uk?) but other than that the knowledge they deliver stops to what an 18 year old learns.

It doesn't take specialized knowledge to teach a 15 year old thus a lot of people can do it, which creates antagonism and problems.

It takes a lot of skill to teach well. Of course, not all teachers are good teachers, but then this is true of any profession. But to claim that being a good teacher is easy and that anyone could do it simply not the case.

Almost anyone can be a teacher, but not everyone can teach.

[Nikolas]

I commented on the ammount of knowledge needed to teach, and what needs to be passed over to the pupils and in fact mentioned that it's not easy being a teacher, never mind a good teacher.

[Pumaman]

But surely good teachers should be paid more to keep them in the profession and stop them leaving and finding another type of job?

[Nikolas]

well...

As far as I know, and based from what I know in Greece, almost all teachers work in public schools (which is the case in Greece and public schools outnumber private for 100/1 or something). I don't know if this is the case in the uk.

But since it's public jobs, I guess there is a set salary, and I do find that it would be difficult to judge such a thing.

BTW, my father was (retired now) a professor in the university (cardiology) and he was paid exactly like another professor in music, in arts, in maths, in whatever.

Now, privately I guess things would be different, but then again, as far as I see here in the uk, and based to my wife who is searching for a new job right now, salaries are pretty much set. An architect with 7 years of experience can expect a set salary.



Of course, I'm under the impression that in the uk the whole educational system is suffering. I see all the time ads for higher education. With I don't know how many unis around, and I don't know how many international students, it appears that the unis are doing good, while Brittish students don't really get higher education. There is a lack of motivation for further studying, and I don't know if this extends to lower grades and ages and so to teachers as well...



Although composition is something that needs an adult student more or less, I do love teaching myself, and I would gladly combine it with freelance composing. I mean, this is the general plan for the near future.

[MillsJROSS]

There's a lot more to teaching then just knowing the material your learning. The ability to teach is a difficult one. You have to know how to manage an age group and a mind set that you may no longer understand. It doesn't make it easy that a teacher, generally, has to deal with new people and new situations every year. As an IT person I deal with the "Same Shit Different Day" type of work. My job isn't likely to change drastically (not that it can't or won't, it's just not as regular). I know that I would have no talent for being able to teach a classroom. Knowledge, yes...ability, no.

That said, I do completely respect teachers. But I completely respect my profession too. So why can't teachers make as much money? It's because as a whole there are a lot of people who are willing to work for those wages. Unfortunately, if you value yourself at a higher level of pay, it's difficult to find someone who's willing to pay your salary. There's a much larger number of people willing to take teaching positions at the lower salary with similar skill sets. Should teachers be paid more? Probably...but until most of them start valuing themselves above that pay scale, the salary will stay.

It's a lot easier for me to say, I will work for you, but this is what I want to be paid. Simply because there are less people who are capable of doing my job well. At the same time, though, my job isn't as secure as yours. The teaching industry will always grow with the population, but the IT industry is more susceptible to grow and shrink. I think, though, ultimately, it's up to you to make sure your salary is what you think it needs to be, or bite the bullet and say 'money isn't everything, and I love teaching.'

In general, though, most people probably don't think their earning what their worth, or feel undervalued in their jobs. That's something that is across the board in almost every field.

-MillsJROSS

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Hmm.  Interesting back-and-forth discussion on the topic of teaching here.  Before I decided to transform into an Electronics Engineer I briefly considered studying to become a Historian.  History has always excited me -- not just what we can learn about the past but what we can learn about ourselves -- and I thought it would be a good fit.  I'm not sure how common this is, but my history teachers all the way up through college were always the most interesting and lively characters, and I suppose that excitement passed on to me.  I decided rather quickly though that I'm not the type of person who enjoys standing up and instructing people, so I chose a more behind-the-scenes profession.  This is probably where some people make a mistake and become teachers in spite of knowing that it's not what they really want to do.  For example, we've probably all had a professor that just looked damn uncomfortable up there teaching a class, someone that probably would rather be in a lab or a computer room by themselves (and it showed).  I think that the really good teachers are the ones that make you interested in a topic in spite of yourself, and that's hard work.  I had a professor once that got me really interested in Solid-state Physics, and you know it's got to take a lot of work to make physics or math exciting!

[Igor]

I knew salaries in my country are rediculously low compared to prices&expenses, that are about the same or sometimes even higher than in other EU countries.. but i always took such comparisons with a grain of salt.
However, reading this thread i realized how bad the state here actually is.

For example: high school teachers make only around 1000 eur a month! A starting salary for medical doctors is around 1500 eur (for dentist even less.. around 1100 eur)! Etc.

Working as freelance animator/illustrator, my average cut of yearly income is around 1000+ eur a month (it will probably get a bit better now.. but still..). My girlfriend still studies, so she can financialy help only occasionally.
The rent is 350 eur. The rest goes for bills and food that is also rediculously expensive!

So, heh, i have no idea, how we manage to get through a month..

There's a massive trade-union strike planed for the end of this year, for higher salaries that would actually follow inflation.. but i'm afraid not much will happen.

[Da_Elf]

my business pulls in about 2500 USD a month and my teaching for the community college adds another 300 per month and then the teaching at the ministry of education pulls in 7500 per month(but thats only for 2 months a year)

[Ponch]

I'm a high school teacher in the US. I make a smidge over 42k USD a year. It's not bad pay, but the job can be very taxing at times, though, oddly, that's what makes it so fulfilling. I made decent money after I got out of the Air Force doing something else, but what I really wanted to do was teach.

Unfortunately, too many parents (in the US, at any rate) I encounter hold to the adage "those who can do, those who can't teach" as a way to explain why their special little snowflake is doing so poorly in his studies (obviously, that their kid never turns in homework or studies for tests has nothing to do with low grades) but that's what anyone in public service puts up with: so many of the people you meet think they can do your job better than you -- how hard can it be to be a teacher / police officer / nurse /soldier / what-have-you?

The money isn't fantastic, but doing my part to get the next generation ready to face the world is incredibly fulfilling. And those long summer vacations aren't bad either (when I'm not teaching summer school, that is -- the most thankless thing a teacher can volunteer for, by the way).

There's more to life than money.

- Ponch

[shbaz]

(obviously, that their kid never turns in homework or studies for tests has nothing to do with low grades)

Respectfully, a lot of times this can be attributed to bad teaching.  You're probably aware that people have different learning methods that are better suited to them and some can't learn from book reading due to hyperactivity or whatever.  So if your teacher is a bad lecturer and/or the kid is afraid to speak up in class then he/she has no idea how to do homework and studying is a futile effort that he/she gives up.

For example I had a chem teacher who simply wrote on the board what chapter to read and what problems to do, he had no idea how to do any of the problems so he'd just give us the correct answer and tell us to work toward that if we asked for help.  So how, under these circumstances, was I supposed to do well in the class unless I was especially adept at teaching myself?

Of course, my teacher was quickly found out and replaced at first semesters end, but it doesn't always work that way.  It didn't work that way with my equally incompetent Spanish teacher.

I'm not saying that you're a bad teacher, just that you shouldn't use that as an excuse for a students poor grades.  Sometimes a change in tactics is in order, and sometimes they'll be better off dropping out and going to trade school or a farm, IMHO.