Forums not what they used to be

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

You must be joking right?  SSH is one of our most prodigious contributors.  Perhaps we should resolve to follow his example?

No.  While I do not question that SSH has created many useful utilities for AGS, this discussion is about a dearth in the quality and quantity of posts (quality being relative to what SSH considers worthwhile in this case).  Even a casual glance at the forum stats will show you that his activity mainly revolves around the Tech forum and General Discussion, which is hardly all there is to the forums.  I refuse to continue a discussion that will simply balloon into a 'this member is great because of x and we should all strive to be like him' debate, however, because that's not the point of this thread at all.

Interests change over time and people move on.  How many members do you think we have that are over  30, 40 or 50 years old.   If nobody is interested in AGS then CJ won't be either and it will pass into cyber history along with C/PM and  paper tape.

This is the way of all things, though.  AGS is already an engine heavily based on nostalgia, and only those people with an enduring fondness for old 2d adventures and gameplay (or novice game makers who just want to learn the basics) are going to find value in using it.  Everyone else is going to experiment with more advanced engines like Ogre3D to try and make games that are a part of the current trends.

On a more serious note, maybe we should establish a debating etiquette where in the case where if someone is overwhelmed, offended, intimidated, or looses badly, the winning or offending participant sends a polite PM saying that they enjoyed the discussion and not to take anything said there personally.  Just a thought.

Many people already do this if they see unintentional feelings hurt, and I see no reason to force it.  Also, I'm confused by the losing/winning comment since some 90% of internet debates end up in a battle of opinions rather than facts, and convincing someone half a world away that you're right (and they're wrong) typically doesn't work on internet forums, though we keep trying!

Over Moderation - Occasionally I see "You guys run a really tight hip over here ..."  type comments and wonder if perhaps our ship is a little too tight.   I know it's a thankless job being a moderator and I personally have no complaints about how things are being run.  I'm just not sure that everyone, especially our newer members see it that way.   I don't want to single anyone out but I remember a recent example that illustrates my point.

The example you listed seems a bit heavy handed, I agree, but I would argue that it's not typical of moderators here to just dismiss people without help.  Several of us are very active and helpful in our respective forums without being harsh, but I also think that moderators should be allowed to be human and have opinions (even unpopular ones!) on issues.

Edit:  I pretty much agree with what CJ wrote, though I'm not sure about the moderation aspect.  I think that the only people driven away by our rules are those people with no interest in learning and observing them (and we're better off without those types).

Of the 4 conclusions I would guess that the first and last are the most likely, since there are so many game engines out there to try with 3d and such and because people probably just don't have anything interesting to offer right now.

[Nacho]

Ohhhh, RickJ, I think I am lost in translation! In Spanish, Liberal and Conservative (Liberal and conservador) is the same word!   So, in English, a liberal is a word for those who are left oriented?

I think you must PM me, my friend, for explaining it to me again, or better, post it here for general laugh at the silly Spanish boy  :. Do you mean that before almost everyone would clap "left" opinions and that almost everyone would critic "right" ones?

I agree that that happened before... But that stills happens now, IMO. Anyway, I don' t see how a change in that attitude is wrong, though, since making an enviroment more pleasant to express opinions must be IMO good. (Unless you mean that there is more room now for "extreme right" opinions, that has to be allways censorable...)

[RickJ]

Ohhhh, RickJ, I think I am lost in translation! In Spanish, Liberal and Conservative (Liberal and conservador) is the same word!  Cheesy So, in English, a liberal is a word for those who are left oriented?

Yeah, you got it now, more or less. 

Like I said before political labels mean different things in different countries.  When I was in India they have as many as 30 political parties and two of them are communist parties who hate each other.  Imaging if you meet someone who is from one of the communist parties and tell that you are communist also.  Instead of them thinking "You are one of us, lets be friends." you may be surprised that they are instead thinking "You are not one of us,  so you must be one of them and so I hate you." 

I think you must PM me, my friend, for explaining it to me again, or better, post it here for general laugh at the silly Spanish boy  Roll Eyes. Do you mean that before almost everyone would clap "left" opinions and that almost everyone would critic "right" ones?

Exactly.

I agree that that happened before... But that stills happens now, IMO. Anyway, I don' t see how a change in that attitude is wrong, though, since making an enviroment more pleasant to express opinions must be IMO good. (Unless you mean that there is more room now for "extreme right" opinions, that has to be allways censorable...)

I am not talking about extreme right or left.  I don't mean to say that such a change in attitude is wrong.  Only that people perhaps feel more comfortable expressing their opinions knowing that there will be many people who agree with them.   If the peoples opinions are more balanced then there is less of a guarantee of finding support for any given position.   I agree that it ought to make for a more pleasant environment for discussion but some people prefer security.
     
I don't think there is a large change in attitude but every once in a while I get the feeling that things aren't as one sidded as they once seemed.  Perhaps it's just my perception?   

[Nacho]

Ok, now we understand us each other (me understands you, basically...)

a) I don' t see that it's balanced right now, again, perceptions... who knows, maybe yours is right, maybe mine.
b) Let's assume that, Yeah! Now it's more balanced and it's easier for conservatives to express their opinions. You have told that for you that is ok, but maybe some people might want more security. Security for what? For expressing only one current of opinion? That was not security, my friend!  I think I havent' t totally understood your post, unless you mean something like:

"Now that there is more balance, people can put the guard down, therefore, now, you can see more stupidities than before"

I might agree with that.

[Pumaman]

I pretty much agree with what CJ wrote, though I'm not sure about the moderation aspect.  I think that the only people driven away by our rules are those people with no interest in learning and observing them (and we're better off without those types).

I'm not so sure about this. This place has a lot of rules, especially the fact that each forum has its own set of rules.

For example, if I was new here, and excited about my game, and posted a Games In Production thread with all the details but one screenshot instead of two, I'd probably get my thread locked with a "READ THE RULES!!" type comment. That'd be pretty offputting and I might well not bother coming back.

Or I might post a Beginners Tech Question asking something, and get my thread locked with a "READ THE MANUAL" comment. I might be the nicest, cleverest bloke in the world, but I missed that in the manual. And as a result, I've now been put off making my game; or worse, left to struggle with AGS for hours because I'm afraid to ask another question.

Now, please don't take this as a criticism of the moderators -- as I said, I really appreciate the work you guys do. All I'm doing is trying to point out how our moderation policies can be seen by newcomers.


On a separate matter, this seems like as good a place as any to discuss the Adventure-related Chat forum. Like it or not, adventure-related chat has gone elsewhere and this forum seems to average about 1 post per day nowadays.

Is it still worth keeping as its own forum or should we merge it with General Discussion ?

[JimmyShelter]

I'm not a 'full-time' regular. Once every few months I get the adventure game bug, and I become a regular visitor for a while.

One thing I noticed is that the 'Critics Lounge' subforum get less posts, both in new threads, but also in replies to threads. For example, there are now 5 threads with posts from today, in the past it would be almost all threads on the first page that got new replies in a day.

If you want people to stay in this community, I think this subforum is one of the main areas to focus on. Encourage people posting there, and help them, and they will stay.

(I do have two threads there I started recently which got a lot of replies, so it isn't too bad. I'm happy with the replies I got).

[Candall]

If the real issue here is a dwindling amount of discussion, either side could be right.

If the board is now more balanced and conservative viewpoints are more acceptable, there should be less argument between the two sides, which would dry up the amount of offensive/defensive postings.

If the board is now more staunchly liberal (which I don't happen to see), then the conservatives (such as myself) may feel shy about expressing their viewpoints and thus decline to do so.

As for me, I haven't paid attention to the political trends because I'm not a politically minded individual.  I've never feared attack from any other forumer, though.  None that I fear would back me into an intellectual corner, at any rate.

[JimmyShelter]

I think the whole discussion in this thread about liberal/conservative paints a good image of what is 'wrong' with this forum.

It's an adventure game forum, why are we even discussing politics?


More gaming threads!

For example the 'So, what's the deal with adventure games?' ( http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=32976.0 ) is a really great example of threads that really make me visit this forum.

[deadsuperhero]

I'm currently balancing a job, school, learning to code in Python, learning how to fork off of BSD and write my own deriavative, get AGS to work on Linux AND have a social life.
Regardless, this post has deeply moved me, and I SHALL be on the boards more often. 

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

RickJ, I'd just like to quickly point out that I remember the example you cited very well. The bloke in question was too vague for anyone to be able to help him, and came across as not even bothering to read the tutorial. This was pointed out to him in stern but polite and agreeable tones.

Later he proved not to be a nice person, as I recall a conversation he had with another AGSer, who told us about said conversation.

We are helpful. We just aren't silly.

As for me, I'm both thoroughly occupied with work, thoroughly occupied with making my first original AGS game (serious!) and I'm very thoroughly occupied with unexpected love in my life. Naturally, posting takes second, third and even fourth place to all this.

[Gamer_V]

I agree with most of the points made in this thread about the forum, but I think it has always been like that. And after a while those things can really start to annoy/bore you. And since more people are leaving then are joining (because of dispopularity of adventures, competing forums or because someone was an .. ass) it may seem as if the forum has changed, but in reality your own standards and expectations have changed.


I'm just basing this on what I read, since I don't post that often.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I don't see a problem with merging the adventure thread provided that the recruiting and posting your desire to help threads are moved somewhere else, since they probably aren't general discussion topics?  The only good fit I could think of for them right now would be Popular Threads, since that area seems to draw a lot of attention from new people just because of the name?  Or perhaps it's time to give recruitment an area to itself and allow detailed, individual posts asking for work like some other forums do?  I believe Dave Gilbert was mentioning that the clutter in the services/recruitment threads were the main reason why he rarely looks at them, and I have seen others agree.
 

[auriond]

It's like newspapers when they go through a spell of having nothing to talk about so they report on Queen Elizabeth II's rubber duck [The Sun September 12th 2001].

Sorry - I know it was probably a product of different time zones or something - but the day after the WTC fell was a slow news day?? 

Anyway, back to the topic. I kind of lost the thread of thought halfway (politics? liberal? conservative? moderation? what?)

But I know that I haven't been too active in these forums despite checking them almost every day since I signed up last year. Why?

Well, I'm first and foremost a lurker by personality. So that's my fault. But I guess this thread has inspired me to speak up more, so it's done something

But also I don't say something unless I feel like I have something to contribute. My profile says I'm most active in GiP (because of two games there), and also in Critics Lounge, because I feel like I can help out in there. I think a lot of people are like that. They have areas of "specialisation". So if some people stop posting for a while, their presence will be most felt in the forums they contributed most to.

I've seen lots of newbies get incredibly polite, patient responses (sometimes in cases where I think sarcasm and snark wouldn't be out of place! so kudos to these forums for keeping civil ), so I don't think that's a problem that they're being driven away by lack of civility. But there is definitely a clique-ish feel (as there is in any other community). And it's darn hard to try to talk in such a context... you can try to respond to some things but people just talk over your head sometimes. They're not doing it on purpose, I don't think... it's just something that happens.

How to change this? I don't know. I guess it puts the onus on the newbie to speak long enough and loud enough to be heard without becoming really annoying. I don't know.

[DGMacphee]

I think the main reason why people are posting here less is because the forums aren't as fun as they used to be.

[Candall]

That "because" has a pretty big "why" hiding behind it.  What about the forum is less fun?  What changed?

[Nightfable]

I come on here for inspiration and relaxation after a day of pulling my hair out because of the kids climbing on the furniture and yelling. I also come on the forums to get feedback on my in-the-works games and THAT is what actually keeps me going (the friendly responses).

There's a few times where I've been insulted and criticized (in not a very good way) by older members and that has made me overly-cautious. I mostly lurk the site but I'm afraid of replying or starting a thread in fear of being put down and have my feelings hurt. It's hard feeling accepted by the community when it is focused on every move you make... a bit like a very stern dad figure.

Maybe the forums aren't as "fun" anymore because there's not much lee-way given?

It's just my two cents and I don't mean to sound insulting to anyone. 

[Sylvr]

I mostly lurk the site but I'm afraid of replying or starting a thread in fear of being put down and have my feelings hurt. It's hard feeling accepted by the community when it is focused on every move you make... a bit like a very stern dad figure.

Well put. This is how I feel much of the time here.

[DGMacphee]

That "because" has a pretty big "why" hiding behind it.  What about the forum is less fun?  What changed?

Those are good questions.

I think the answer is probably because people are having less fun and more people are creating threads that are limited in any enjoyable participation. When I think of these forums now, I think of words like "serious", "dry" and "straightlaced". There tends to be very little playfulness and lot of seriousness here.

Keep in mind I'm not saying the forums should resort to immaturity or anything like that. I just think people need to be a little more playful.

[RickJ]

I think the whole discussion in this thread about liberal/conservative paints a good image of what is 'wrong' with this forum.

Jimmy here's the thing ...
In response to SSH's  question I tried to think of a few things that might be factors and posted them.  One of them didn't translate well into Spanish and NACHO asked me to clarify.  We traded a couple of laughs and posts trying to sort out the translation.   DG and others used to post political topics in GENGEN that generated massive interest all the time.  I hardly ever agreed with DG's opinions but I very much enjoyed engaging in those passionate discussions. 

Rui it wasn't my intention to dwell on the right or wrong of a single incident but rather to illustrate my point about how these kinds of things may be seen by newcomers.   In this  particular incident what harm would have come from not locking the thread? 

I think we should all consider what Nightfable has said and evaluate how her comments may apply to ourselves, myself included.  Well said Nightfable. 

[InCreator]

I wouldn't say that forum has gone boring, but game production is dried up indeed.

My review:
It was a summer of ghosts this year, with very little of noticeable coming out, and even though autumn brought some new games, either ready or closing to deadlines, it's still not what it used to be.

Ah, and there's no blood. No new rebellious noobs trying to run over every moderator and veteran user. Almost everyone is supertolerant and understanding now, and so even every attempt to provoke mess fails pretty quickly.
If someone comes in guns blazing, (s)he finds no resistance, everyone tries to understand him, until moderator simply mops whole thread up. I'm not complaining, just analyzing this.

Any hardcore oldschool moderation I see at all is Darth Mandarb's work at Games In Production where spamming and rule ignoring won't last a day. But it's almost only place where misbehaving occurs, anyway.

I've been Critics Lounge resident for 4 years, and this is one place that's gone down. There's no more superb entries, no noticeable quality in entries, and no-one cares to C&C any story or music thread.

Competitions and activities have gone through strong change. Photoshop friday, background competition and tune contests have suffered strong abandonment lately, but Animation and Sprite compos are very strong with many entries.

There's 2 forum corners that have always been quite a mess and still are: Popular Threads and Hints & Tips.

Gengen is same as always, including a rant, latest world news discussion and technical help request always on first page.

I wouldn't say that this has changed much during 4 years.

But a weird feeling that something has gone missing from old-good-AGS haunts me lately. Is that v3.0 that I can't force myself to like, or old veterans not making any games anymore, I don't know.

There's a few times where I've been insulted and criticized (in not a very good way) by older members and that has made me overly-cautious. I mostly lurk the site but I'm afraid of replying or starting a thread in fear of being put down and have my feelings hurt. It's hard feeling accepted by the community when it is focused on every move you make... a bit like a very stern dad figure.

You'll get used to it.
After all, your "start" wasn't that bad.

I remember myself not realizing the size and difference of world and people around it when joining the "club" and stepped into way too many buckets before getting whole act together. You can't like everyone and everyone won't like you. So you have to filter a bit.

I categorize AGSers like this:

Artist (admired ones)
Techie (CJ's evil henchmen or module makers)
Helper (People from beginners tech)
Musician (Professional and honored ones, quite unproductive though)
n00b (teH newbs)
Game Maker (loved ones, productive people)
Talker (generic gengen babbler, useless ones)

You have shown yourself as talented Artist - having a place in community instantly, so I wouldn't worry.