Forums not what they used to be

[hedgefield]

Didn't Holland get Kane & Lynch, Assassin's Creed, Need for Speed Pro Street, Smackdown 2008, Call of Duty 4, Mass Effect, Crysis, Sim City societies, Super Mario Galaxy, Mario & Sonic at Olympics, Mario Party on DS etc this month?  :o

Or did you mean that was the storm?   

That was the implied storm. The silence was in the 6 months before.

And I think Blueskirt has a point. If we put a little more effort into fostering the games in production now instead of remeniscing about past days, maybe people will be motivated more and more new games would show up.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Hear, hear, Andail! 

Also:

Blueskirt, why are you talking like I left!  And I'm glad that you enjoyed Dance 'Til You Drop! -- very few people have actually ever said they did (and no, this is no ploy to get people chiming in with love and such, just a fact)!

There's a few times where I've been insulted and criticized (in not a very good way) by older members and that has made me overly-cautious.

Nightfable, could you provide a single instance of this to me via private message, because I've read nearly every thread you've contributed to and never come across anyone insulting you or your work aside from suggesting changes or improvement, as is natural for the CL.

No new rebellious noobs trying to run over every moderator and veteran user. Almost everyone is supertolerant and understanding now, and so even every attempt to provoke mess fails pretty quickly.

And I think this is absolutely wonderful aside from, perhaps, 'supertolerance' when taken to mean people don't venture criticism for fear of the consequences.  I think that anyone should be able to have an opposing opinion as long as they are willing to state it in a respectful, non-'random dick' sort of way.  You don't need to be asinine or jokey smurfish to get a point across, and it more often clouds the issue and destroys any relevance your viewpoint might have (in addition to inciting more negativity). 

Opinions = Good, Dickheadery = Bad.

There are only a handful of people who have used this forum that I would consider highly for the Dickheadery award, while a vast majority of you, while different in your own ways, have proven time and again to present your opinions and disagreements in a respectful manner -- and that is very good! 

I have been a part of many forums (and been a moderator on most of them) for years now, and I am quite old and tired most of the time.  That isn't really important, but what is important follows:  of all the forums I have ever moderated/contributed to, AGS has one of the best track records for creative and respectful people.  How many forums can you count offhand that have so many people contributing both publicly and behind the scenes to improving both the engine and the library of games?  You can make a case that most people just make games for themselves, but we also know that many are making them for the benefit of their peers, and that's like a gift!  Grundislav didn't have to wake up one day and say 'Gee, I'd love to make 8 games about Ben Jordan and share them with my friends at AGS and such', but he's still cranking those things out -- and he's far from the only one!  There are many people working on games behind the scenes (I'm just one example) who don't really care to use the Production thread to pimp something, but that doesn't mean the games aren't being worked on .


I think that some of you have the right idea, that the forums are in a constant state of flux from active to inactive, and that it's a natural condition as people move on/are busy/new people arrive.  The rest of you could probably benefit from taking a step back, a deep breath, and then try not to make mountains out of molehills.

[m0ds]

one person will say something to someone else, that someone else will misunderstand and take offense over nothing.

Very true DG; as seen in nightfable's recent thread (lo & behold the irony of who it was that upset her! ) and then the threads just degenerate into personal battles about what one should or shouldn't have done. Makes for a pile of crap reading thats for sure On the whole I still reckon the forums are very lively, very interesting & generally very friendly. The only real thing missing is the bonding aspect it once had. The world has changed & I guess what worked in the past just doesn't quite work now in terms of bonding with people online. I know my internet social skills have almost been wiped out So, where does the bonding on a forum happen? I mean surely people know other people and have friendships with them through the forums, perhaps because of PM's or just helping others out, I don't know. But it's not like IRC where you can just chat your everyday opinions away and (kind of) get to know people.

Before IRC channels people would be more open with their feelings in threads, not just opinions. It's hard to decipher how people really feel on the forum because there's no active way of telling each other, and the majority of threads boil down to onions. I mean opinions. It's funny how once the most active people start using IRC, whether they stay with it or come away from it, they soon become the least active on the forums (posting that is, not doing stuff) - or so it seems to me. If bonding on the forums was pushed a little bit harder I don't think the newbies would feel so intimidated. One of the greatest schemes was the Mentoring thing, I think that gave a lot of new people confidence, but there hasn't really been anything like that for years; unless people are privately mentoring others.

There's a great community spirit here, it's just missing something to hold it all together. And personally I don't think IRC is the glue. More forum related community activities could be good; more topics that help bond people a little better too. Some people will move on, naturally, and some won't be enticed to stay. But I too feel thats down to personal choice. Bar holidays I've managed to visit the forums daily for 6 or so years, simply cos I think they're great, and the peoples very interesting! But we certainly are missing some key bonding schemes these days.. 

[SSH]

Now that Yufster and DGMacphee have posted in GenGen again, I retract my original premise as the forums are now interesting again.

And as for IRC: when is the werewolves game coming back? That was a game when you could REALLY make people feel unwelcome and victimized.

[JimmyShelter]

On a bright note:

This could be the first day in months with over 200 posts! (This is post 198...)

[Nightfable]

I just dug my hole even deeper with that thread didn't I?....

Darn.

[EldKatt]

I don't think there's a hole at all. And if there is, the only hole is the hole itself. Or your concern about it. Really, most people have probably made posts way more stupid than that on some occasion, but everything evens out over time, and in the end only the true asses will look like asses. Unless they chicken out.

[Candall]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry overmuch about it.  I mean, I admit I thought it was a weird thing to post, but it pales in comparison to the time I witnessed someone's announcement on an IRC channel that his room was, in fact, on fire.

[Pumaman]

These two threads came to my mind after reading DG's post:
Dog pixel art

I miss that! Then again, I haven't really read the forum properly in ages, so perhaps there has been more similar threads recently. I just don't find the forum as interesting as it used to be for me anymore.

I know that thread is rather old, but I'm curious as to why it was locked like that. It looks like it was just people having fun and being creative, I'm curious as to why something like that would have been locked? And if that sort of thing regularly happens in the Critics Lounge, could it be why people are more reluctant to post there nowadays?

I think that perhaps we are too harsh towards newbies in beginner tech, and maybe also in the GIP. I know the forum rules are clear on that, but perhaps the forum rules need to be relaxed a bit?

I think that the rules are ok, but that the interpretation of them should be more flexible.
For example, if somebody writes a perfectly reasonable post in GiP, but only includes one screenshot instead of two, should they be punished with a thread locking and "READ THE RULES" reply, or should they simply be encouraged to add another screenshot whenever they are able to?

As with all laws, forum rules should be applied with discretion and not just blanket enforced on every minor technical breach.

Or perhaps the moderators for each individual forum need to rotate to a different forum, so that they don't become jaded on the forum they take care of.

You guys reading this that are moderators, are you getting tired of moderating the same old forum every day? Would you like to change around or have a break from it? What are your opinions on what has been said here about over-moderation?

I think people here are a little afraid of upsetting everyone else. I've read a lot of threads on here that follow the same pattern: one person will say something to someone else, that someone else will misunderstand and take offense over nothing. A prime example is when someone gets called a "n00b". It's seen as a term of offense when really it's nothing. It's not really a big deal but people treat it like it is.

This is often a problem on the internet though, due to there not being a tone of voice or facial expression to work out that the other person is joking. It can be made worse when two people post in a thread insulting each other, but where actually they know each other well and are just playing around -- to everyone else, this can look like a fight which a do-gooder can then try to put a stop to, and the whole thing descends into a farce.


Anyway, let me repeat this question:
Would anyone have any objections with merging the Adventure-related Chat forum into the General forum due to its low post count, or should they remain separate?

[Ghost]

Compared to other forums I've been active in, this one has started as very lively, yet with an underlying hint of professionality- there has always been a focus on games here, surrounded by juicy bits of more mundane threads. It's true, it has been a bit dry recently, and I blame it on the increasing amount of commercial AGS games.

I wish everyone who sets out to make some money with his games all the luck in the world. I haven't purchased any commercial AGS game yet, but I've read the reviews and followed the threads: Good on yer all, you've really produced quality.
But pushing a freeware game-making engine more into the commercial regions, well, that leaves a taste, doesn't it? It attracts more newcomers I guess, but it also causes freelancers like myself to compare their work to games like Al Emmo, Blackwell, you name it.
The new 3.0 release is another factor I think; it looks great, it has many useful improvements, but it feels so much different- at least for a while.

So surely there's a change, but that's just natural. I'm a long time member and qualify mostly as a "talker"- I do not prefer any forum very much; I post where I see fit. Sometimes Beginner's Help, sometimes C&C, sometimes WIP... I've got a good deal of posts on my slate, and in all the time, this is interesting, there has only ever been one guy who really p**d me off. We had a bit of a row, but that's life. What really anchors me here is the fact that some people know me, remember me, occasionally PM or cite me, and vice versa. It's a community and a friendly place to be. I can't say I've liked it better a year or so earlier.


@Nightfable: Do not take that threat of yours too seriously, and please don't let it shy you away! Would be a shame to lose a great writer and artist just because of one little tight spot.

@CJ: I have always understood the GIP rules as a sensible guideline; a way to ensure people post only after having build up some material. Two shots and a summary really are not too much to ask, I think.

[Khris]

I don't think harsh moderation is a problem as long as the rules are fair. And they are, IMO.
Barging in a forum, skipping the rules, posting for the sake of it or out of boredom/laziness is simply annoying. I'm aware that I can get pretty agitated at people who act like this, but sometimes the level of "manual? Duh, why have a beginner's forum then" is way too high for my taste.

These forums are well policed, the signatures' height is limited to some 50px and the n00bs (yes, the n00bs) who act like rules are for everybody else are greeted with mockery and occasional harshness. And that's exactly what I love about these forums.

[blueskirt]

Blueskirt, why are you talking like I left!

Not like you left. In the last 2 years you've probably been working a lot on Drug Bust in the background, but I miss the short yet awesome games, like the OROW, that you and several other talented makers drowned us with (in a good kind of way) back in 2005-2006.

Holidays are coming, I wonder if it would be a good moment for another OROW competition.

[Stupot]

Would anyone have any objections with merging the Adventure-related Chat forum into the General forum due to its low post count, or should they remain separate?

I personally think you should keep them separate.  So what if the GF is having a slow patch.  I'm sure it'll pick up again and I think it's important to have one for everything-but-adventure seeing as the whole of the rest of the forum is about AGS and Adventure gaming.

[EldKatt]

Anyway, let me repeat this question:
Would anyone have any objections with merging the Adventure-related Chat forum into the General forum due to its low post count, or should they remain separate?

I imagine the possible issue would be that adventure-related threads might more quickly turn into non-adventure-related threads, perhaps to the dismay of people who treasure a sanctuary of adventure-related chat. I for one would not mind, though, I think. (And I really liked the dog thread and disagree with its being locked.)

[LimpingFish]

I think these forums are still relevant and enjoyable...just a little dry lately.

#AGS is also in danger of wheezing its last.

Reading back over the IRC quotes from yesteryear, it seemed to once be a genuinely fun place to hang out. Indeed, even though I came to it rather late, it was still fairly enjoyable up to a year or so ago.

Then everyones chat gland seemed to dry up, and it's become a bit of an IRC dustbowl.

[Nacho]

I like AR chat sepparate!!!

[Andail]

Heya DG

[auriond]

Would anyone have any objections with merging the Adventure-related Chat forum into the General forum due to its low post count, or should they remain separate?

No, keep them separate! I love to visit the AR Chat forum, but I sometimes give the General forum a miss if I don't have enough time.

[Tuomas]

Well the adventure related is pretty much the 5th choise forum for me, if theres nothing else to talk about, or if the others are dry, I go there. I wouldnät mind it being combined with the gengen, however, I wouldn't want it to clutter up the gengen page or the other way around. One might say we don't get that many threads anyway, to make one disappear too soon or so, but still.

I've seen the pages change quite a bit after a week of absence, which in my case is prettty scarce, but nevertheless. And I'm not sure if that means we have enough posts thread-wise, people do start them every now and then, or that we don't enjoy posting in one thread more than once. I certainly do not. With this I did the exception of reposting due to the vagueness of my first post, and after reading through this, realising how interesting this actually is.

I usually read long serious posts, threads, opinions, but occasionally they just start repeating each other, and I'm quite used to people's opinions here, so mostly I just have to see the avatar, and I know what's coming, and basically we've had a couple of threads of people contemplating on an issue no-one disagrees on. It gets very boring after a while, or as to say, 10 answers. Well then someone jokes about a bit, and either it goes off topic or everyone ignores them. Basically I see myself writing under a subject that I want to discuss, but only to get answers by certain few people that are the most active at the moment. And that reverses the need to post, kind of when you already know what the answer is going to be. I think the forums lack the moment of surprise nowadays. I thought, well, people are willing to fight over drugs and God, over things that are completely opinion based, but ifsomeone wrote a political thread about the president of Russia for example, what kind of feedback would it get. Well, it didn't. I guess no-one cares enough, or people realise, that the internet knowhow isn't all that there is to it, but opinion-rant is a refreshing, yet frustrating way of making time go. Well, not for me.

I just started a thread, trying to find out how many of us were really willing to read the first post if it was longer than some few lines and then how many were really willing to contribute to it, no matter how obvious or boring they found the subject. Well we had our fun, I see it died pretty soon without bringing in any discussion really, and I'm really diappointed in the people who never even cared enough to read the post without first seeing a short brief explanation of what they're reading. Well, the forums are like a lesser IRC, people are not reading a book or a newspaper but jsut comparing a few ideas at haste, and so are the AGS ones, mostly used for actual need, or to find a solution to real issues.

As with the moderator issue, I've been quite happy with the mods here. I realise that sometimes it would have been fun to go about joking in one thread, but then, who would benefit of it? Yet, i don't think that that is the main point why we come here. As Petteri linked, those two threads were a great joy, and just reading them is a joy itself. So sometimes I find myself wondering, why should they be closed, as in to stop the fun. It's like coming to pick your kids back home from the kindergarden, still knowing they'll be going back there tomorrow to continue the same fun in some other way. I think that's exactly what we need. Provocative subjects and places to really have fun. Like a just for fun -forum. I know I know; it would draw useless posts and a lot of meanindless stuff, but it would still keep us bored of life wanderers here and not at some other forums. It doesn't all need to be that serious, does it? The games aren't, as far as I know (and I don't, sry). But I am under the impression, that I am the only one trying to make a serious game with no humour anywhere, just a political message, whereas most people use games to like separate them from the moment, just for a while. Why couldn't the forums be like that too?

[Domino]

I had to kill that shoe thread by posting a serious picture.  I just went back and looked at it, and they were all really funny until you get to my post. 

Way to go Domino.