Pixel Joint - A gripe...

[Snarky]

I don't know why I feel a need to chime in, but here goes...

These people were being assholes about it, but they do have a point. By the standards of their community, the picture you posted wasn't "real" pixel art. Since we've had one comparison to music, I'm going to make another one to something else...

Let me introduce you to Iambic Pentameter Joint! This imaginary (or so I sincerely hope) community is devoted to poems composed in iambic pentameter, the rhythmic meter famously used by Shakespeare. They are purists about their preferred format of verse, and some members look down on other poetic forms such as the hexameter, the alexandrine, or (horror of horrors!) free verse. Now, if you post a poem that generally follows iambic pentameter to some generic poetry site, you could expect it to be evaluated on the basis of its poetic merit alone. However, if you post it to IPJ, you have to accept that any divergence from the pentametric form is going to attract criticism.

Now, even Shakespeare didn't stick rigorously to the pentameter, so you could argue that IPJ are being too anal about the poems they allow, but it's their community, so they can make whatever criteria they like. And I'm sure they would argue that the constraints of an inflexible poetic meter teaches discipline which will eventually make you a better poet. But, of course, if you don't like the people who hang out there, by all means stay away. It's their loss.

[lemmy101]

Like he said!

[Darth Mandarb]

Like I said; I know it's their site, thus their rules.  I don't have a problem with the rules. (for the 10th time)

I feel like I'm having to repeat this over and over ...

This "gripe" is about childish and snotty attitudes that are displayed there.  Yes, constructive criticism can be harsh, but there is a VAST difference between constructive criticism and just plain rude, mean spirited, and snotty remarks that serve no purpose.

Every time I take a stand on the bad attitudes over there, I get PMs from people saying how they can't stand the attitudes displayed there either.  Or how they don't post there anymore specifically because of the crap attitudes.  I'm not alone in disagreeing with the general "tone" of the place.  And that's really sad.

I have used limited palettes before.  It can be fun.  But my "style" is not palette restricted.  I don't mind changing it up a bit from time to time but that particular piece (linked to earlier in this thread) was for a contest there that specifically said "no restrictions".  And the entire image WAS laid down pixel by pixel.  Yes I used a shadow layer, but I still laid down the pixels one at a time.

It's not that my piece uses a lot of colors.

It's not that some felt it necessary to comment on the color count.

It's how they expressed their comments.

And to address the following:

I don't want to sound harsh here, but I have noticed a lot of disgusting things in AGS community also. I know, everybody isn't made for art, but goddamn it, if you already are trying to make it, then do some kind of research at least, see how the styles are constructed etc. Have some critical eye and don't post shit, because, you know, some of the games in AGS database truly do make me puke.

This is the very attitude that is at the root of the problem here.  Just because a person might not be at the same level as others (Fool for example) that should mean they can't post on Pixel Joint?  That's ridiculously arrogant.  Everybody pixels differently and to try and say that somebody shouldn't post a piece of art just because it's not as "good" as Fool's work is the worst kind of elitism.

Oh, don't be a crybaby! There are a lot ruder things in a world, you know.

This is a good example of the very attitude that sparked this thread.  It's derogatory and serves no purpose.  I wasn't crying in the slightest.  I was expressing my disagreement with something and giving my reasons and justifications for it.  There was no "crybaby" involved.

Oh, and Darth, so you probably spent more time than really needed on that pic, since you had to pick more colours and therefore place more pixels...? No wonder it took you 6 hours then.

Another prime example of the Pixel Joint syndrome ... I mean no offense to you in any way here but who are you to tell me how long I should take on a piece of ART? 

Sorry, but I don't see any problem.

Which is, to my thinking, why the problem exists in the first place.

[MashPotato]

Unfortunately, there will always bad attitudes on websites, and especially when the average user is quite young

I'm not alone in disagreeing with the general "tone" of the place.  And that's really sad.

It does make me sad that a few people can turn people off the site, because I really do think it's only a few and not a major portion of the user base.  If you don't visit often you probably won't recognize names, but there are some people I find quite rude--not to me personally, but to others--and, unfortunately, some of them post a lot.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Helm posts there and he doesn't shoot down people for not doing things his way, nor does buloght, MashPotato or many other AGSer's I've seen there.  Unfortunately, people are often influenced by a society's most vocal residents/contributors, and I would definitely agree that the more vocal posters in PixelJoint tend to be really, really anal-retentive about what constitutes 'true' pixel art and about their own internal rule set for composition.  I will say, though, that the site has some really interesting competitions at times and I have been tempted on more than one occasion to enter.  I really just don't have time to juggle multiple forums effectively, though, which makes AGS enough for me (and CGEmpire occasionally)!

And let's stop the personal attacks here.  You know who you are, and there's no excuse for that behavior.

[Darth Mandarb]

Unfortunately, there will always bad attitudes on websites, and especially when the average user is quite young

Regrettably sad, but true.

It does make me sad that a few people can turn people off the site, because I really do think it's only a few and not a major portion of the user base.  If you don't visit often you probably won't recognize names, but there are some people I find quite rude--not to me personally, but to others--and, unfortunately, some of them post a lot.

I could give a lot of examples (linking to pieces there that received the PJA (pixel joint attitude)) but honestly I don't care to devote any more time to this subject!  I appreciated your crits in that thread by the way

And let's stop the personal attacks here.  You know who you are, and there's no excuse for that behavior.

Was that to me?  If so, who did I attack?  Radiowaves?  I didn't call him a crybaby...

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

No, it wasn't to you.  Stop being defensive!  8)

[Darth Mandarb]

DON'T ACCUSE ME OF BEING DEFENSIVE!!! 

[Andail]

Darth, you're just too used to the friendliness of AGS's critics lounge
I think the attitude over at Pixel Joint is pretty much prevalent across the intraweb's more specialised art-communities.

Of all those comments, only MrMister comes across as a real asshole, in the sense that he wasn't interested a bit in giving constructive criticism, just being moronic. Then again, in his gallery you'll find pieces like this one, so it's probably just jelously

I'm not an expert when it comes to pixel art, but the little I know is that the quality of a piece is pretty much determined by how wisely you choose colours. Using high amounts of near identical shades is basically a big no-no.

[ManicMatt]

MrMister seems like a complete twat, and if you look at his comments to other pieces, you can see he's always like that.

"Bunny's don't have breasts" he says, or something like that, about a female bunny woman. It's NOT REAL!!

[tube]

Pixel nerds being nerdy about pixels. What a novel phenomenon.

You have to expect this kind of behaviour in any highly specialized community. Doesn't make it any less frustrating of course. And it's not just on art forums, I've seen people get blasted for using the wrong text editor in several programming related mailing lists. Elitists are everywhere, though thankfully there are not many around in the AGS forums. Don't get why an obvious troll like that MrMister hasn't been banned already though.


Nice piece Darth, though I have to agree about the arms being a bit too stiff.

[voh]

You know, Darth, the way I see it, it's partly your fault. Why? Well, that's simple.

This is why.

A troll came along, and you engaged him The others weren't really being all that jerky, but this guy's just the cherry on top of the cake of retardation. Never ever feed the troll.

I can understand that the PJA annoys you, but try to work around it rather than fight it, because it's a side-effect of any specialized community and it's not going to change easily. Keep this in mind, and don't let a guy who says "sorry no one in america gives a fuck aboot sweden" give you trouble. Just ignore the fuck and be done with it.

[big brother]

Hey Darth, don't get discouraged. It's a good piece and I enjoy seeing your work on PJ. As of late, the membership has boomed, and between the influx of new members and required comments for "promotion", there's a plethora of idiocy on parade.

Keep in mind that pixel art is unlike any other medium -- it was born out of technical limitations. As a result, it tends to be a less gestural vehicle for creative executions. Control is key in everything from AA placement to palette management. Some people idolize color count minimization. To me, the color count doesn't matter as long as it's justifiable. Do the extra shades enhance the impact of the piece? If you auto-reduced the palette, would the color degradation be noticeable? The best pixel art pieces are the ones that celebrate the medium.

I totally understand you not wanting to fuck around with the color count. It's tedious, and only anal retentive masochists (myself included) actually get satisfaction from it. From the bulk of your work I've seen, you tend focus on polish and textures, with inspiring results. As an experiment, I'd suggest abandoning the pixel aesthetic altogether. It was a good starting point (and it still works for the games and animation you make), but for a piece of stand-alone art, it may be holding you back. 

Above all, keep creating!

[LimpingFish]

I move silently through various other forums, not unlike a heavy-set ninja, and it really makes you appreciate the (largely) good-natured attitude of these very boards.

Elitism, and scoring (imaginary) points by belittling other and, more often than not, newer members, is, in my opinion, the sign of a person who feels that doing such makes up for all the inadequacy they experience in "real life".

The internet, to these people, is akin to a balaclava; they can say or do anything they want, with more or less total anonymity.

I never saw the appeal of "winning" a forum debate, though to define such "discussions" as such is overly generous, a I certainly never saw the appeal of verbally "bitch-slapping" a stranger over subjects of such little importance.

"Your art is very nice, but doesn't strictly adhere to the rules we have in place." End of discussion.

Having said that, Darth did refer to the 256 colours in his initial picture comments, so to bring the subject up at all was pointless. The first seven comments for his piece refer to the colour count. Beyond the posts of Mash Potato and ProgZmax, almost all the other comments make reference to the overuse of colours. MrMister is trolling, sure, but others make similar disparaging comments about who deserves respect and whatnot.

It seems to me that an unhealthy number of forums are based on the rule that everybody who joins deserves no respect, until decided otherwise by the forum "elders".

But should we care? Should we feel slighted by such remarks, when made by faceless people? Except for myself, I can't say. Darth's first response was sarcastic, which may not be the right way to begin, and the "color nazis" comment was a little aggressive.

Basically, Darth could've turned the other cheek. But, in the end, that's his own decision to make.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Well I have to say I've been treated pretty fairly by PixelJoint on a personal level.  Sometimes people will post things without a full understanding of what's going on in a piece (or without reading the comments left by the artist) and that can be annoying.  I think that rather than engage people who you know are just out there to make themselves look good at your expense, focus on the constructive criticism instead.  If there's one thing people hate (especially on the internet) it's being ignored, and after awhile the annoying people go elsewhere to be heard.  Great points by BB and Fish, additionally.

[Khris]

Since nobody has mentioned it yet:
There's pixelation.

It seems to be what you're looking for (although I'm sure you already know the site).
The guys over there are also anal-retentive about color counts, but in a nice, constructive way.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Helm's a moderator at Pixelation, I believe!  Some nice art over there.

[MashPotato]

I don't post there often, but Pixelation is a very useful forum and I've learned a lot there .  And really, I have at PixelJoint as well--being a member there encouraged me to just pixel, and practice is the first step to improvement

[InCreator]

Sounds to me like a bunch of n00bs are trying to rate art.
N00bs as people who don't know how to comment on art.
One thing is knowing how to draw, way another is how to criticize works of other people.

Why Pixel Joint, anyway?
Our CL is the best place ever.

[Ubel]

I've seen some rude behavior there as well. I just ignore it because in my experience the majority of people on this planet are utterly stupid and it's useless trying to get some sense into them.

Also...

Oh, and just to make shure, pixelart is not about retro

What now? When did this change?