Are Christians (and other religious zealots) completely brainwashed anymore?

[deadsuperhero]

Bit of a rant here, I'm kind of shocked and angry.
So, I've been having and internal religious struggle. Last year, I wasn't praying very much, and my parents got divorced shortly thereafter. Well, I've been struggling to bring God back into my life, but the religious zealots these days are just disgusting.

Here's a demonstration of a discussion I brought up in a thread on a Myspace Christian Group. The thread was by someone else, talking about how Christians are brainwashed. My reply consisted of this:

To be fair, a lot of Christians I see just don't think for themselves. They believe that what other people preach to be the absolute truth, they never ask questions.

Take for example, this:

Me: "Is evolution possible?"
Guy: "No, it's absolutely impossible, infact they've disproven it."
Me: "But, isn't God capable of doing that?"
Guy: "Well, maybe, but he didn't."
Me: "Are you denying the power of your own God?"
Guy: "No, only sinners like you do that."

Problem is, people read too deeply into things, and never look past simple words. They think that "God had to do something x way, because the Bible infers something that is connected that way."

God wants you to ask questions, he wants you to ask why, he wants to help you find solutions and explain things. So do it. He loves us so much that He allows us to think for ourselves, so do so.

Well, I felt pretty good. I gave a very intelligent, levelheaded answer, pointing out the wonders of thinking for yourself.

The replies consisted of the following (and my answers).

Them: "No, that's impossible. They've proven scientifically that animals can not evolve from one another!"
Me: "Really, then why are there different species of millions of animals?"
Them: "Well, um, that's part of God's plan."
Me: "But, couldn't God use Evolution?"
Them: "God is all powerful, but evolution is impossible."
Me: "Did you just deny the power of your own God? He can do anything, according to the Bible."
Them: "Aah. No, I did NOT say that, only a sinner like you does that."

Are they really that thoughtless? I pondered.

The thread degraded into everything bad. I got called a disgusting Sinner, that I was wrong and going to Hell, and that only the Bible was truth.

Seriously. They're absolutely brainwashed. All I wanted to do was tell them to think for themselves, and they didn't even want to do that.
There's something very wrong with the world today.

[Ponch]

For whatever it's worth, I learned way back in the 80s not to take advice, get into arguments, or seek the approval of people on the the other side of my computer screen (the fine folks of this outstanding forum excluded, of course).

So a message board is filled with a bunch of opinionated fools. I'm shocked. Faith is a deeply personal thing and it's doesn't jibe well with the interwebs, which is appallingly impersonal.

Whatever is wrong with the world is too big of a thing for any one person to fix, much less debate over tcp/ip. Look to answers within yourself (which it seems like you're doing anyway) because, in the end, in your own head is where you're going to spend your entire life. Talk about things like this face to face with real people you know in real life. You'll encounter a lot less trolls that way (usually).

In all faiths, you'll find people who retreated into faith to shield themselves from an uncertain world. But you'll also find people who entered into their faith for a reason other than some sort of security blanket for grownups. I wasn't raised with any sort of faith whatsoever, yet after 35 years on earth, I find myself quite unexpectedly to be a spiritual person. Didn't see that coming! Ignore the zealots and focus on your own journey (if you'll pardon me going kind of touchy-feely there). Whatever it is you're looking for, no one else can find for you. If they say they can, they've probably got a price tag attached to it.

Short version, ignore the idiots and don't try to change them. You're likely wasting your time and probably going to get an ulcer for your troubles. Keep asking questions of yourself and in time you'll find answers you can live with.

And for the record, I believe that while evolution is a far from perfect theory, it's the best we've got and it makes a lot more sense than a literal reading of what is otherwise a pretty nifty allegorical creation story which has always struck me as more concerned with why the world is so screwed up than trying to explain exactly how the world physically came into existence. It makes more sense to me to read it that way than to use it a a scientific textbook that teaches the world is 6000 years old.

Anyhoo, that's my two cents on the subject.

- Ponch

[lo_res_man]

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." I wouldn't however just say "Christians" however. Those who want to be brainwashed would be brainwashed on something, Christianity is simply their soap of choice. If it wasn't that, it would be something. As a Christian who likes to try to think for myself, I agree that God gave us freewill, to explore this wonderful universe that He/She gave us.But I think in a way, we are all brainwashed, we all have some assumptions that we hold dear, to a degree greater then the evidence warrants.  In fact in some cases, there can be no evidence, I once asked a bunch of scientests where the energy/matter in the universe came from, if it can not be created? They had no answer, and said there was no scientific way to HAVE an answer. Which just shows there can be very physical things beyond Science, not just the metaphysical.
Religious zealots rather freak me out, especially when they use their energies for destruction and death, things I do not believe are part of what God wants us to do. To me, we are here to help our fellow men and woman, to love our neighbors as ourselves. Anything else is just dogma and additions.

[Ponch]

Slightly off topic here, but I've been meaning to say this all season:

lo_res_man, that is an awesome avatar!

Also, good post.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

You really have to approach religion carefully, and by carefully I don't mean as a staunch skeptic but as a reasonable person.  Some religions really are out there just to distort any useful meaning religion has as a result of one person's attempt to capitalize on gullibility (Joseph Smith and the Mormons and Hubbard and the scientologists fall into this category), while a host of others have great value when looked at objectively.  My brother falls pretty squarely in the zealot category, unfortunately, and it's quite impossible for me to have any kind of theological discussion with him without it devolving into how his interpretations of certain passages in the Bible are the only correct ones.  I am particularly at odds with him on the loving God/angry God issue that plays out between the Old and New Testament because it's my personal belief that a higher being who sees us as his children would never act out of fury or malice against us. 

The person you were speaking to seems to be one of those people who can't reasonably discuss an issue so they just throw a label at you.  People like that aren't worth your time in any situation.  I happen to believe that evolution/creationism are not mutually exclusive concepts, since if God created man to think and adapt, would He not also give animals the ability to adapt to their environment to better their odds?

I think what you're seeing is nothing new, in that there are always people who will clutch to an idea in a way that makes them most comfortable and refuse to see any alternative even if it is not a harmful one.

[deadsuperhero]

Wow, that is super, you guys. Possibly the most mature thing I've read all day.
It's frustrating, though, because I'm surrounded by the same kind of people at church.
I happen to believe in a universal, reinterpretable God, I feel more at peace with that than actual religion itself.

[Fee]

I find most religious people are atleast partially brainwashed, but thats not the problem. The problem IMO with most, is their blind faith. The fact that no matter how much evidence one was to provide disproving that their religion was incorrect about somthing, they will often insist you are wrong and refuse to listen to reason.

I have no problem with other people being of whatever religion they choose to be. What i dont like is when they preach and attempt to convert others. Especially others who dont want to be converted.

In countries like Australia, we dont have a problem with this kind of thing at the moment (tho religion is making a comeback unfortunatly) however goto Pakistan or India and certian ethnic or religious groups like the Kalash are persecuted and refused jobs based soley on their beliefs.

This is a mojor problem in the world thats been around for thousands of years, and unfortunatly it will not be solved any time soon.

[Andail]

I think there are wonderful aspects of most established "classic" religions. In contrast to modern movements and programs (those kinds of movements that pop up in USA on a regular basis, sell a couple of million books and get featured in Operah, who claims it's the new shite) which are just about gaining power and money, religions like christianity and islam etc focus on your role in a community, and how to be good to others. Heck, most of New Age is just about spiritual self actualization, how to maximize and optimize yourself. It's never about sacrificing anything (I believe a lot in sacrificing), only about gaining more.
As lifestyles and philosophies, the big religions can teach us a lot.
But why oh why can't they just settle for being lifestyles and philosophies, why must they explain the evolution, cosmos and everything?
Religion loses ground when their followers must ignore and refute the most obvious and simple evidence science presents. Instead of being relaxed and saying "sure, evolution is fine, but we want to talk about how you lead your life here and now" they shout "blasphemy" whenever reality doesn't correspond point to point with the scriptures.
That's when the desperation kicks in, and people hide their heads in the sand. Their universe collapse because they can't give and take.

[Paper Carnival]

I'm a Christian and I don't care whether evolution is fake or not. I just don't. That's not at all what Christianity is about.

That's all I'm going to say, I don't wish to get into a religious debate again.

[Emerald]

Everyone's brainwashed by something. It's all about human nature - a need to follow something, to fit in. You could be brainwashed by the Bible, Fox News, Eminem, your best friends, your parents - whoever, or whatever you pay the most attention to.

There's no such thing as someone who is a totally independent thinker. Your every means of expression is filtered through languages and codes which are invented by other people.
When I say 'bird', you immediately think of a small flying animal with wings, feathers and a beak, because that's what you've been 'brainwashed' to think.
It's the same with Christians. If you go through your whole life hearing about how evolution is a sham (just like you've gone through your whole life knowing what a bird is) hearing the word 'evolution' will cause a knee-jerk reaction of thinking 'untrue'.

Telling these people 'maybe evolution is true' would be like trying to convince you that a bird is actually a type of fruit, and not a flying creature.

[twin-moon]

There's something very wrong with the world today.

People used to be burned and guillotined by zealots who thought only they had the truth, so there have been some improvements (in large areas of the western world at least).

Hm, I know the kind of people you mean. The closed-minded judges who can't be reasoned with. They really make me mad.

As I recall, there was something in the Bible about warning your brother when he listens to unsound ideas, but it's a whole other matter to say someone's going to hell.
Let me quote Jesus on this: "Judge not lest ye be judged."

All you can do is say what's on your mind, if they listen or not is their problem.


EDIT:

When I say 'bird', you immediately think of a small flying animal with wings, feathers and a beak, because that's what you've been 'brainwashed' to think.

Isn't a small flying animal with wings a bird? It's common sense to assume, since it saves time. Unless I have an emufarm, I'll assume you're talking about the small flying animals with a beak.
It's only brainwashing if I refuse to believe there are birds that can't fly.

[InCreator]

Any religion that opposes science commits pretty much a suicide today. And suicide is a sin!

Why do catholic church (and/or many of its stupid followers) deny theory of evolution I don't know. Why couldn't it be also part of God's plan? Why must Old Testament be correct? Are we believing in God's love and supreme plan, or an old book?

Wiki says about Book of Genesis...

Scholars see the book as the product of anonymous authors and editors working between the 10th and 5th centuries BC.

So, who says there can't be no mistake?

I don't think one should rate religion by IQ of its followers or myths it's based on. I think that Holy Bible is pretty outdated and not a book to live by, especially since It's written by humans and is actually a collection of old tales.

As it's said often, we don't and can't have no real idea how God looks like, what He wants or what He is. This is what I believe. And this sounds like something more solid to base your faith onto. Not dusty book of jews' tales or intimidating priest promising hell and eternal punishment if you're not penitent enough.

But for me, in religion section, I'd write "undecided".
Free thinking is an enemy to almost any religion. Being brainwashed, at least at some level, is a must to be a believer. People knew this long time ago. Islam? Inquisition? Electric cattle prods? 

[Fee]

I dont have a problem with alot of the values that some religions try to teach, but really, its about time they all get with the times and find new ways to teach love and respect for your fellow man.

I give people respect untill they show me they dont deserve it, i believe everyone deserves a chance, end even a second chance and that people should be free to do what they want, as lond as they arent hurting other people.

Why?

Well not because some priest tells me im going to hell if im dont try to be a "good guy", but because of the way i was raised and because of the lessons ive learnt in life from doing stupid shit.

These days, especially in first world countries, i dont see the need for religion in its current form.

[Lionmonkey]

Why do catholic church (and/or many of its stupid followers) deny theory of evolution I don't know. Why couldn't it be also part of God's plan?

Because some people, who believe Darwin, say that humans evolved from monkeys, while the Bible thinks that people were created independantly from animals.

Everyone's brainwashed by something. It's all about human nature - a need to follow something, to fit in. You could be brainwashed by the Bible, Fox News, Eminem, your best friends, your parents - whoever, or whatever you pay the most attention to.

That's right, but after you've managed to get brainwashed by yourself, you start feeling an urge to create a new religion/way of life/ cheese and gain followers.

I give people respect untill they show me they dont deserve it, i believe everyone deserves a chance, end even a second chance and that people should be free to do what they want, as lond as they arent hurting other people.

Why?

Well not because some priest tells me I'm going to hell if I'm dont try to be a "good guy", but because of the way i was raised and because of the lessons ive learnt in life from doing stupid shit.

A bit off topic:

Lesson No 1:
If you don't act like a "good guy", people hit you.

Lesson No 2:Psychological Egoism


People have nothing good in them actually, they just follow their basic incstincs, searching for pleasure and evading danger.

[Nacho]

Why do catholic church (and/or many of its stupid followers) deny theory of evolution I don't know. Why couldn't it be also part of God's plan?

Because Darwin says that humans evolved from monkeys, while the Bible thinks that people were created independantly from animals.

Darwin does not say that.

[Babar]

The monkeys! THE MONKEYS! EEK EEK EEK EEK!


Yes. Sorry. I have nothing constructive to add to this discussion. Please forgive me.

[twin-moon]

According to Genesis, God made man from clay. Yet, biblethumpers seem to take that as a metaphor. Why must the six-day-limit-on-creation and all that being taken literally then?

The monkeys! THE MONKEYS! EEK EEK EEK EEK!

It fits your avatar

[InCreator]

Monkeys or clay, what a though choice! Or was it bone (for women)? 
This is stupid.

[Akatosh]

I think we all know there can be but one sensible position in this debate.



(Don't have anything constructive to add, either. Sorry)

[MoodyBlues]

Why do catholic church (and/or many of its stupid followers) deny theory of evolution I don't know.

AHEM.

The Catholic Church sees no conflict between doctrine and evolution (in itself):

In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.

- (John Paul II, Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution)

Sometimes, however, people try to justify philosophical ideas using the theory of evolution, such as the evolution of human souls or eugenics.  As long as Catholics understand that many of those ideas are not held by the Church and are not what evolution is really about, Charlie Brown, they're good.

The monkeys! THE MONKEYS! EEK EEK EEK EEK!

MONKEYS IS CUTE LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!11  O^_^O~ <- LOOK IS MONKY!!1