The annual AGS awards debate

[AGA]

But hey, the live ceremony is your baby now! Bwuahahahah!

\o/

[Ishmael]

I miss the live IRC ceremony, and I hated having to miss it towards the end as it was timed when I had to be elsewhere or had something else going on. But all the times I did manage to be there it was great fun.

Also, voice acting and sound effects should probably be separate categories. There could be a game with brilliant use of sound effects, only to fall in the shadow of a few games with full voice acting, not necessary all that great anyway. Not that I'd know examples, this is just something I'd assume.

And best documentation should be left as it is, if it indeed does mean documentation that comes with games. There was a certain help file that interacted with the game, now that's what this award in my eyes is about.

[bicilotti]

And best documentation should be left as it is, if it indeed does mean documentation that comes with games. There was a certain help file that interacted with the game, now that's what this award in my eyes is about.

Awesome! What game are you talking about?

[LimpingFish]

I enjoyed the year before last's AGS Awards the most, partially because I was nominated (whoo) and partially because I enjoyed the whole run up to the awards themselves (SSH and Zooty announcing the nominees on  Skypecast, the setting up of the various IRC rooms for the night, etc).

SSH's AGS-based awards last year were a cool last minute replacement, and nobody is disparaging the work he put into it, but in the end it (obviously) lacked the spontaneity of the live version; people were already discussing who had won before I even had a chance to watch SSH's presentation, and the awards themselves felt like an afterthought that year.

Timezones are a problem, of course, as are people finding "better" things to do (the bastards!), but you work with what you can get and I'd rather have a small live event than no event at all.

[AGA]

8PM GMT is a fair enough time all-round, I'd say. That's 10PM at the latest in Europe, early afternoon in the States. Only the Pacific and Aussie people are left out really, and who cares about them!

[blueskirt]

A post to answer some of the questions you asked here and in your blog:

Should Demos be allowed to compete in other categories?
No. I may sound harsh or unfair, but it's one thing to whip up a website, post some backgrounds and sprites and release a demo and it's another thing to release a finished game. The awards should encourage more people to release finished games, not release more demos of games that may never make it to the final version. I think demos should stay in their own category. If an aspect of a demo truly shine, the AGS awards will be there the year the finished game is released.

Should non-adventures be allowed to compete in other categories?
As long they're finished games, yes.

Are there any categories missing?
Any of the existing awards mis-named or confusing, etc.

Could anyone explain the "best innovation" award? Is it best gameplay innovation or just best innovation in general? Because if it is the latter, Best Gameplay could be split in 2 category: Best gameplay innovation and Best gameplay implementation, something we discussed a lot recently with the checklist and Vince Twelve's Broken Game threads. I suppose it would be possible for a game to win both.

I also second separating speech from sound and the suggestion to add a Best Voice Actor/Actress award.

Maybe a Best Atmosphere or "Most attention invested in the little details" award, but I don't know.

Also, could you explain more about the best Remake/Parody? Is it to cover the gray area when a game maker release a deluxe version of one of their previous work, to update the graphics or add a speech pack? It also open an interesting door, can someone constantly update a game in hope to win an award?

[auriond]

Only the Pacific and Aussie people are left out really, and who cares about them!

Yeah, them Pacific and Aussie people aren't gonna win any awards anyway

Guess I know where my vote is going    SSH, need any help with that .exe file?

[Makeout Patrol]

My opinions:

-Demos should not compete in other categories. Honestly, I'm skeptical that a "best demo" category is needed at all - for me, a demo is just a part of another game, and if a demo has been released in time for the AGS awards but the full game has not, that game (and consequently its demo) really belongs to the year in which the full game was released.
-Non-adventures should be allowed to compete in all of the categories. They're games, too, and their creators have put a lot of effort into them. I don't see any reason why they should be disqualified.
-I think that the IRC ceremony sounds like a lot of fun, but... well, I'm on the Pacific. Even if it was at a good time for me, I'd probably forget about it. The AGS-made ceremony .exe sounds like a lot of fun, too, so I'd definately be for that even if we did do an IRC ceremony and release the .exe afterward.
-I think that a "best debut game" award and a "best atmosphere" award both sound like superb ideas.

[blueskirt]

The Best Atmosphere thingy was a reply to what SSH said on his blog regarding Art of Theft beating ATOTK for the best programming award. I thought "There must be a way to somehow reward aspects, like sound, animation or coding, which, while not super spectacular, shouldn't be overlooked due to the amount of effort the maker put into it.." but then I thought "Man, this just sounds like a rehash or a silver medal for best sound, animation, dialogue or coding awards." so I really don't know.

Plus, I thought "Best Atmosphere" was completly ambiguous and it wouldn't really apply to any insane amount of detail someone might put in one aspect of the game which doesn't apply to the atmosphere, what if someone add tons of useless but funny/insightful messages to a game? Or code a different reply to every inventory item uses like a lot of people dream to do one day? Plus, atmosphere is rather hard to define. If you think it's a good award idea and can further develop it, feel free to run with the ball because I really don't know what to do with it.

[Dualnames]

Innovation, that surely concerns about something that has never been done using AGS, example Vector Vendetta.

[Nikolas]

I think I've said this before, but for the shake of me and the lack of time right now, I can't remember what the result was.

If Dave (and others, like Alkis) have a budget, and maybe a considerable budget, shoudln't their games be excluded from the AGS awards? Someone with enough money, could get... Picasso to make the BGs and get a big enough chance to win that category...

EDIT: Just remember that the reply, previously, was that generally commercial games DON'T get all the awards, so there's no reason to exclude them! The non commercial games overpower in essence the commercial ones, if only in number but also to the sheer quality that some show!

In other words, probably never mind this post...

[SSH]

Thanks for the input, peeps, this is all helpful.

Some points:

a) I may well prepare an EXE as well as m0ds's IRC ceremony, planned to be released after it. Those who couldn't attend the IRC ceremony can have some fun, then. (Anyone want to do some better backgrounds for the stage, theatre, etc?) and also its a backup in case the ceremony takes as long to happen as Fountain of Youth

b) I was discussing the Best Programming on Stickam. Perhaps the way to handle it is to have Best Non-adventure Programming and Best Adventure Programming as two separate categories. Like the Golden Globes Comedy/Drama split.

c) Best Remake or Parody has a dual-purpose. Firstly it is to recognise the huge effort that can sometimes go into a remake or parody, but it isn't really fair  (or likely) for a rehash to win any story awards, etc. and secondly it will maybe allow the other categories to concentrate on original material and not feel obliged to reward a game based on 15-year-old ideas just becuase it took a long to time to make (no games in particular in mind here, honest!) I would say that, for example, Little Girl in Underland maybe isn't going to win in any of the old categories given the stiff competition in other short games, but on the other hand, many may think that its the best parody of the year.

d) AS you edited, Nik, experience shows that commercial games have had less players (at least amongst the AGS community) and hence get less votes, despite their potentially higher production values. Perhaps, though, as with remakes,  a Best Commercial Game category could give them recognition and yet also not make people feel obliged to vote for them in "normal" categories unless they truly deserve it. However, I'm only aware of one commerical release this year...

e) Yes, its hard to define Best Atmosphere for the reasons bluskirt says. And while one may have a particular game in mind when one thinks of awards, that doesn't mean everyone else does too. And the silver medal in the AGS Awards is that I usually use the "nearly winners" as an easy source of picks-of-the-month...

f) Best Innovation is decided by committee and it usually comes down to what the committee decides it tro mean based on common sense and obvious candidates. The two winners so far have been Linus Bruckmann and _access which I think are both fair.

g) Best Game by a Newcomer also seems popular and I'll see if the committee can come up with a sensible choice. Question: Last year, would you have said that Nelly Cootalot was a newcomer's game?

h) Should there be some kind of nomination-announcing event? Sounds like it was popular (although once again, I'm only getting that feedback 2 years later...  : )

i)  Any suggestions by PM of good people for the Lifetime Achievement/ Innovation/Newbie awards committee are welcome. Anyone who suggests themself is automatically excluded

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I've never been fond of the irc presentation because of the way it's been handled, really.  Devoice, announce, winner comment, voice for random people, devoice, repeat.  I fully understand the reasons for it but the irc approach has just never appealed to me.  I think the downloadable executable worked better because

A) I don't have to be around for a specific person's idea of what the best time is in order to see the event

and

B)  more time can be spent on making the award ceremony interesting/funny in a visual environment.

You could also record it and put it up on youtube.

[Ali]

a) I may well prepare an EXE as well as m0ds's IRC ceremony, planned to be released after it. Those who couldn't attend the IRC ceremony can have some fun, then. (Anyone want to do some better backgrounds for the stage, theatre, etc?) and also its a backup in case the ceremony takes as long to happen as Fountain of Youth

I definitely endorse this. I was going to offer to draw an alternate background (before reading this) but then I had a better idea. I think there should be a special background blitz where AGSers can compete to 'host' the awards in their background(s), possibly an interior and a 'red carpet', as before. You could set the technical requirements, and you'd be bound to get an interesting crop which might last for a few years. That would also help build up anticipation and excitement.

Also:

Question: Last year, would you have said that Nelly Cootalot was a newcomer's game?

Yes! I think we can all agree that Nelly Cootalot didn't get enough awards. Does hanging around for three or four years before making a game stop you from being a newcomer? This is an injustice of unprecedented magnitude!

[olafmoriarty]

I have never seen one of the "live" award ceremonies, so I'm not entirely sure how they work, but my two cents are:

- If one chooses to have a live award ceremony, it should be available for those who miss it for a time. As I said, I have no idea how it works, but: If it's just an IRC chat, put the IRC log online so that we can read it afterwards. If it's more than that, like sound or video, put a file online. If it takes too much bandwidth and disk space, put it online for one week only, so that people will be able to see it even though they're not there at the moment.

- If one chooses to go for the AGS Award .exe, like last year: First, what I really missed in that presentation was interactivity. Why use AGS to make what's basically a crude cartoon? Make a menu that lets us jump between the awards, at the very least make a review button. And add some more music, please. Another idea: Would it be possible to contact the winners beforehand to make them write their own thank-speeches? In one way I think that would make a better ceremony, but then again it would completely ruin the surprise ... for them, at least.

I like the idea of a live ceremony, but I know I'm probably going to miss it, and at the same time I like seeing the characters on the screen recieving their awards ... The best thing would probably be if SSH made sock-puppets resembling all the nominees and hosting a live video chat puppet show which would later be available for download.

[Ishmael]

The transcript of the IRC ceremonies has always been available in a more or less hi-tech format for those who missed it to see afterwards.

I was thinking of the presentation game would be released after any IRC ceremony if there is such, so that any possible developer comments could be included in it and it wouldn't ruin the suprises? But then again, would it somehow make the presentation somehow less official looking or something?

[bicilotti]

Question: Last year, would you have said that Nelly Cootalot was a newcomer's game?

Nope, if I'm not mistaken Ali is a long time member, so he'll have to cope with having won only 5

I think there should be a special background blitz where AGSers can compete to 'host' the awards in their background(s), possibly an interior and a 'red carpet', as before.

Awesome idea!

SSH, m0ds:
Can we have a "best ceremony for the 2008 ceremony" award?

[SSH]

OK, so here's my current thinking on the category list: All games must be added to DB during 2008.

Lifetime Achievement, Best Innovation and Best Game by a Newcomer are chosen by committee

Games in the DB as "Demos" are eligible for:

Best Demo

Games in the DB as "Non-adventures" are eligible for:

Best Non-adventure, Best non-adv programming, and all the main categories except Best Game, Best Short Game and Best Programming

Games in the DB as "Joke games, MAGS games or Short games" are eligible for all the main categories plus Best Short Game

Games in the DB as Commercial are eligible for Best Commercial Game as well as the main categories

Games in the DB as medium or full length games are eligible for the main categories:

Overall: Best Game, Best Remake or Parody
Design/writing: Best Gameplay, Best Story, Best Dialogue, Best Puzzles, Best Tutorial or Documentation
Art: Best Character Art, Best Background Art, Best Animation
Sound: Best Voice Acting, Best Effects, Best Music

[m0ds]

It will be done And before FoY too!

Only the Pacific and Aussie people are left out really, and who cares about them!

And don't forget ProgZMax

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Don't you have anything better to do than troll, m0ds? 


You'd think with all this time you seem to have to post you could've done all the music for my game!

And where are those Ben Jordan outtakes?



And Fountain of Youth?  And all those other games you haven't finished yet?