Cliche Puzzles

[Trihan]

Simon the Sorcerer had a poke-key-through-lock puzzle as well, but in that case I think it was well-placed.

[Jakerpot]

Ah come on! I already put a mouse hole in my game... 
But its ok. It isn't a mouse that its inside it and isn't a key or a iten...
and no, it have something, and its live! *evil grim smile that should have on smile bar*

[Laukku]

But even then...who locks a door and leaves the key in it?

The same person that leaves the most powerful weapons and lots of ammo in a small room directly in front of the evil mastermind's secret hideout.

The same person that puts a sign next to the evil mastermind's secret hideout, saying in big flashing letters: "Teh Evulz Mastamidns Secrit Hidout!"

The same person that outfits feeble minions with incredibly powerful artifacts and weapons that they drop when dying, yet are unable to use to defend themselves.

The same person that litters the wilderness with treasure chests, all of which can be opened with a simple, cheap skeleton key.

Hey, those kind of remind me of the Evil Overlord List! 

[Stupot]

Simon the Sorcerer had a poke-key-through-lock puzzle as well, but in that case I think it was well-placed.

Shhhh!
I'm playing that now, and so far gone unspoiled.

[Helme]

Apart form keys, screwdrivers and crowbars are the most clischee items.

In 'Ben there, dan that' i found it really funny, that they just spoiled those extrem clische puzzles by saying something like:
"I can't remove it with my bare hands"
"What do you need?"
"A crowbar"

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Extremely realistic/technical puzzles. Like "use knife to remove isolation from cable, use pliers to twist cables around eachother, combine batteries with screwdriver, etc etc". Heck, if I want to mend a radio, I can do that in real life.

I'll disagree with Andail on this.  I actually quite enjoy puzzles that involve constructing or repairing something from a variety of parts in a logical manner as long as the payoff is worth it.  In Boyd Quest I added an optional sequence where you can troubleshoot and repair an arcade game with the help of a manual, some tools, and the machine's dip switches/test functions.  The payoff is you get to play the game if you fix it ^_^.

[Andail]

I just find the puzzles where ordinary tools are employed just as they're designed in real life a bit boring.

After all, establishing a completely mundane and realistic game "universe", filled with real-life emulating puzzles, often results in very strange challenges. As a poster said above, if everything is so realistic, why doesn't he just buy the necessary items in a shop?

Of course, one could have a setting that doesn't feature normal cities with normal economies, and many games do take place on deserted islands or locked basements.

But still..."use screwdriver on screw"...I dunno, it's not my idea of having fun.

[Jakerpot]

Oh damn! I got a screwdriver in my game too! But its not to use with a screw! *evil grim that should have on the smile bar*

[TheJBurger]

One way to solve the crowbar/screwdriver problem (which I remember from somebody's article) is to replace items like crowbars and screwdrivers with other items that can accomplish the same task, yet serve a different purpose.

For example, in Grim Fandango (PUZZLE SOLUTION ALERT!), Manny has to swing over a pit by assembling a grappling hook. Instead of finding a normal "grappling hook" inventory item and tying it to the rope, you find a statue of a small potted plant. The potted plant has the same hook and shape, but you don't expect to use it on the rope because it already serves a different function. So, you tie it to the rope and swing across anyway. Cliche-inventory item removed-->Puzzle innovated-->Problem solved.

[Jakerpot]

yeah, i done this on my game, and some point on my game (no, it will not make you frustrade) is when the player think the puzzle is solved, he figure out it isnt too simple...

[MoodyBlues]

One way to solve the crowbar/screwdriver problem (which I remember from somebody's article) is to replace items like crowbars and screwdrivers with other items that can accomplish the same task, yet serve a different purpose.

Do you happen to remember the name of that article?  I'd love to read it.

[TheJBurger]

One way to solve the crowbar/screwdriver problem (which I remember from somebody's article) is to replace items like crowbars and screwdrivers with other items that can accomplish the same task, yet serve a different purpose.

Do you happen to remember the name of that article?  I'd love to read it.

Sorry, I can't find it right now. I can't remember if somebody said it here on the AGS forums, or if it was an interview with Tim Schafer. Either way, this article by Yahtzee nearly says the same thing.

[Helme]

One way to solve the crowbar/screwdriver problem (which I remember from somebody's article) is to replace items like crowbars and screwdrivers with other items that can accomplish the same task, yet serve a different purpose.

Or the other way: Using those items in a different way, like the screwdriver in Sam & Max.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

But still..."use screwdriver on screw"...I dunno, it's not my idea of having fun.

This doesn't really bother me to be honest.  I like it when there are straightforward, logical solutions to break up the more esoteric puzzles in a game.  Let's face it, most puzzles in games border on ludicrous or stretch the limits of believability, so I think it's nice when you do something that's entirely logical AND IT WORKS.  What bothers me is when you have a shitload of inventory items that will solve a particular puzzle logically but only one ridiculous solution works.  A perfect example of this is going back to the crowbar thing.  I've played so many games where you'll have 2-3 items in your inventory that could be used to pry something open (a hammer, a metal pipe, a common screwdriver), but then you need to specifically find a crowbar to do it.  That to me is more cliche and lazy than simply making an item that has a logical use.  It also stands as a warning for people who like to make games with massive inventories, because the more items you have the more careful you need to be that they won't have practical uses elsewhere.

[ThreeOhFour]

I like it when there are straightforward, logical solutions to break up the more esoteric puzzles in a game.

If we're allowed to get technical, we could discuss how using more obvious puzzles in between the "think outside the box ones" creates more 'dynamic' gameplay - rather than having the player doing the same thing all the time (ie, screwing screws with his screwdriver all game long or using the broken spectacles with the bright light to set the goat cheese candles alight, setting off the midget doorman's allergies causing him to drop the springy hat, then going onto other convoluted combinations for the rest of the game) you could strategically place more logical puzzles in certain positions to give the player a nice change of pace or advance the story, which would be taking a note from movies where you get fast story progression and slow story progression to make things more interesting.

Which is basically what ProgZ said in about 120 more words .

[Ultra Magnus]

I personally like the old ones, like pushing the key out of the lock onto the paper.
I think they've gone beyond cliché into kitsch; you know exactly what to do and what will happen, but it's still fun.
Like when a joke is so bad that it's good.

What bothers me is when you have a shitload of inventory items that will solve a particular puzzle logically but only one ridiculous solution works.  A perfect example of this is going back to the crowbar thing.  I've played so many games where you'll have 2-3 items in your inventory that could be used to pry something open (a hammer, a metal pipe, a common screwdriver), but then you need to specifically find a crowbar to do it.

This. Very much this.
And it happens all the damn time.
What makes it worse when there's no clear indication which one you're supposed to use.

Ever played Phoenix Wright?
There are several moments in that game where you've got half a dozen items of evidence, all of which point to the same conclusion in their own way, but you have to guess which one you need to use because apparantly none of the others will work.

[Trihan]

I think it works in Phoenix Wright because there's no backtracking or wondering if you actually -have- the item that will get you further. You have everything you need, the trick is to work out what's needed and when.

[Snarky]

Ever played Phoenix Wright?
There are several moments in that game where you've got half a dozen items of evidence, all of which point to the same conclusion in their own way, but you have to guess which one you need to use because apparantly none of the others will work.

Well, you have to use the piece of evidence that contradicts the current statement of the witness, so it's not quite so bad. But I do agree that there are some points where multiple pieces of evidence should arguably work. I was more annoyed by the times when I felt I was ready to contradict a piece of testimony, but the game wouldn't recognize what I was trying to do because I had to do something else first. If a witness says something and I have evidence that clearly disproves it, I should be able to raise an Objection! (Or Phoenix should at least say something like "The time isn't right yet" and let me continue without a penalty.)

One of my personal dislikes is having the same puzzle structure repeated too many times. For instance, in Ben There, Dan That, you had to open probably 8 or so different doors by finding the right shape to stick in the lock. Two or three times is fine (e.g. The Three Trials), but much more than that and the whole project starts to feel monotonous.

[MoodyBlues]

I thought of a few more:

- Riddles.  I actually kind of like them because they vary the gameplay, but they'd better be original and not something you lifted out of Highlights for Children.

- Plot tokens.  "Get the Four Mystic Orbs of Power to defeat the Evil One!" I'm guilty of doing this, but I'm doing my best to integrate the plot tokens into the story and world rather than just declaring, "GET YE ORBS TO WIN."

- Light source puzzles.  These aren't so bad as long as they're not too obvious.  "Gee!  I found a lantern lying in the middle of nowhere!  I better pick it up in case there's a cave around!"  What if you can't find a lantern/candle/torch?  Now that's a decent puzzle.

- Random, nonsensical gifts.  I always cringe when I hear a character say, "Here, take this [blank].  I don't know what you could use it for, but it may come in handy."  You just admitted it's useless, so why are you giving me this garbage?  Did you read the walkthrough and realize I'd need a hairpin/rotten egg/dead fly?

[beomoud]

What bothers me is when you have a shitload of inventory items that will solve a particular puzzle logically but only one ridiculous solution works.  A perfect example of this is going back to the crowbar thing.  I've played so many games where you'll have 2-3 items in your inventory that could be used to pry something open (a hammer, a metal pipe, a common screwdriver), but then you need to specifically find a crowbar to do it.

That's why i prefer Adventure/RPG games, i am tired of picking up every single junk i find in a game knowing that if i try to get in character and don't pick it up that i am going to have to go way back to do so. I don't like it when every item is destined for one solution only and that they all need to be used. I remember the example here of Atlantis, a game around 1998 where an orb was NOT used in the game and the whole gaming community was upset searching for months what was it's purpose but there was none, and i liked that. I don't like to know that there is only ONE solution for every problem and i need to get in the designers head to figure it out no matter how absurd it sounds. In a game i've been working on you can carry as many items on your inventory as your back can lift and there are many items that you will probably never need to use so the challenge here is to find what item is that you really need for the job and go get it. Think logically where you would find one or simply go and buy it, but even then i prefer the designer to have thought of other solutions as well. If you believe for example that the hammer will do the same work as the crowbar the designer would have better made the both work...