Samantha Orobator

[LimpingFish]

Nobody has been executed in Laos since 1989, or thereabouts. So let's just calm down a little.

My biggest concern would be seeing that Ms. Orobator can now get a fair trial in Laos. This is very different to wishing she could avoid prosecution in Laos, as some people seem to be hinting at.

This "exchange of prisoners" idea seems a little strange, and not the kind of thing you would expect a drug-smuggler* to be entitled to.

*For now, I'm going to assume she is in fact guilty. Plenty of non-nationals pass through these countries without incident, so I find the idea of a conspiracy against this one woman a little far-fetched.

[Meowster]

It's about a bit more than hoping she now gets a fair trial in Laos after everything that has currently happened to her. Evidence is strongly pointing towards her having been raped in jail. The jail is known for the violence that happens within its walls, including beatings, water torture and fake executions carried out to terrify the prisoners. Some prisoners have had their genitals burned. Laos has kept her away from lawyers and did not inform the UK that she had been arrested for months - breaking international consular agreements - with the excuse that they did not have access to a fax machine. They brought her trial forward by a year, which although it has since been delayed, was initially brought forward to a time before any representatives or lawyers had been allowed to see her... despite her having been in prison for already around 8 months.

Even if she did get a "fair" trial in Laos now, there are questions to be answered. And quite frankly I don't think simply having a fair trial at this point - after everything - is going to cut it.

I'm not going to respond to any people who have the "she deserves to die" attitude because it would be a waste of time. But, Hudders, you are completely incorrect to say that letters will have no effect. Why would you say this, as though you absolutely know for a fact? Particularly as there is a long history of such things working quite effectively - you just need to spend a little time reading and researching to find that out. In fact, it commonly works. So please feel free to oppose it as an action for whatever reason, but don't talk utter bollocks.

[Hudders]

breaking international consular agreements

There is no British consul in Laos. No agreement exists between the countries.

And quite frankly I don't think simply having a fair trial at this point - after everything - is going to cut it.

I don't understand what you advocate for her then? A fair trial is all anyone should be campaigning for: she has been arrested for drug smuggling in Laos and therefore should be tried under that country's laws for drug smuggling. A fair trial would decide whether she is guilty or not. I can't see how you could want anything more than that.

Hudders, you are completely incorrect to say that letters will have no effect. Why would you say this, as though you absolutely know for a fact? Particularly as there is a long history of such things working quite effectively - you just need to spend a little time reading and researching to find that out. In fact, it commonly works. So please feel free to oppose it as an action for whatever reason, but don't talk utter bollocks.

You provide no examples in your rhetoric. To think that a letter writing campaign can do anything except raise publicity, (which, on this issue has already reached saturation point), is arrogant at best. What, spefically, is writing letters to Gordon Brown going to achieve in this instance?

I'm also continually amazed at the calls for politicians to immediately react to whatever cause is in vogue for a given month. Right now it's as if this woman is the only thing worth anyones time caring about. She isn't.

[Meowster]

Pssht pshht. I can see this is upsetting you. Go and do some research or something useful with your time, perhaps? I can't be arsed to explain simple things to you, it's not hard to figure it out yourself if you want to, but I can see you're very set on your viewpoint and aren't going to change it no matter what I say. So it might be best for you to focus your attention on something that doesn't wind you up quite so much, and that you know more about.

Didn't want to get into an argument on this thread but when someone starts talking bollocks, it's hard to resist. I'm going to stop now - hudders I doubt you're going to, but please research a little before making such statements on this thread. I'm going to stop posting now as otherwise I'm going to get involved in a retarded youtube-comments-style argument loop with you in which neither of us will win.

[Mr Flibble]

I'm with Hudders on this one, letter writing campaigns generally just provide free fire-lighters.

Letter writing campaigns can work when the media is involved but this case isn't high profile enough. Also there's nobody involved who can be pressured into action. We can't really pressure the UK Government because they can't pressure Laos without committing crimes more serious than the ones being disputed here, and I doubt anyone in Laos could care less. The opinions of people themselves do very little. Amnesty International used to operate in my school, asking us to sign letters to send to foreign tyrants telling them we were sad and that they should stop being despots or we'll all be jolly cross.

[Buckethead]

Meowster you always make threads like this and when someone doesn't agree you act like they are idiots while they are right most of the time 

[RickJ]

First of all I think we should all layoff Meowster!  She didn't make this post to persuade anyone to adopt her views;  she merely brought this situation to our attention and asked any of us who had an inclination to write a letter to Ms. Hartman and Mr. Brown to do so.   I did because I have traveled to many places where justice is rare and have first hand experience of being falsely being accused of a crime.   

Secondly to those who claim that letter writing is useless.  I received the following reply to the letter I sent to MP Harriet Hartman.   It would appear that  public concern has motivated the UK government to take some kind of action.   How much and how effective remains to be seen.   

"Dear Richard,

Thank you for contacting Harriet about the case of Samantha Orobator who is currently being held in Laos. There has been a lot of concern about Samantha and I will ensure that I pass your email to Harriet.

Harriet is totally opposed to the death penalty and has been working with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) and Reprieve, the legal action charity representing Samantha. She made urgent representations to the FCO on Thursday 30th April and has since spoken personally to the Foreign Secretary, David Miliband MP, and the Secretary of State Bill Rammell MP about the case.

Harriet is confident that everything that can be done is being done.

You may wish to visit Reprieve’s website where you will be able to follow the progress of Samantha’s case www.reprieve.org.uk

Best wishes,

Sarah Foster

Office of Harriet Harman QC MP"

[Hudders]

I'm not against letter writing, I just think at this stage in the game it's not going to achieve anything more than has already happened. The case is in the news enough to prompt government action anyway; it would be naive to assume politicians don't watch the news. 

[LimpingFish]

It would help if we knew exactly what outcome people in support of Ms. Orobator want to see.

If she was raped in prison (conflicting reports now show she may have been pregnant when she was arrested, miscarried in prison, and is now pregnant again), then yes, she has been abused and somebody should be held accountable. It's highly unlikely anyone will be, but that doesn't lessen that fact that she has suffered.

She will not be executed... “We are all glad to see that the Laotians have recognized that their own law forbids executing Samantha by firing squad,” said Reprieve Director Clive Stafford Smith, “But this is only a first, belated step forward. It was cruel to allow Samantha to think she might be shot for all these months, and the Laotians knew all along that she needed a lawyer. What they did not know is the international outrage that the case would cause. It seems that by delaying they now hope that the media will lose interest in Samantha’s plight.”...or rather, she won't be officially executed, since we'll assume the Laotion administration could make her disappear if they so choose, or that surviving Phontong prison life for any extended length of time is unlikely.

Judging from the US State Department report that criminal trials in Laos during 2003..."...were little more than pro forma examinations of the accused, with a verdict having already been reached. The State Department indicated that in some instances police administratively overruled court decisions, at times detaining a defendant exonerated by the court, in violation of the law."...a fair trial may also be unattainable.

So where does that leave us?

Do we want her unconditional freedom? Would we see her somehow face prison time in Britain? Or should she be tried in the International Court of Justice?

Does the horrendous abuse she has suffered absolve her regardless?

I'm of the opinion, however unpopular, that if she committed a crime she should punished. She'd see jail time in any western country for such a crime. She just had the unfortunate luck to do it in Laos. Of course, she also happens to be innocent until proven guilty, and if she can't hold that basic right within the Laotian justice system then, yes, we do need to see some sort of international action.

It just confuses me that it takes a case like this for people to react to human rights abuses that are happening all the time. She's not the first, and she won't be the last.

Where will we be then?

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I'm not at all surprised by the Western reaction to this situation.  Ages will pass with scores of Laotians being executed under dubious laws for questionable crimes, and then someone from America/UK gets strung up for spray painting a wall or smuggling drugs and they're up in arms over it.  Situations like these show that most people exhibit a very narrow area of concern that rarely leaves their own country except for events their countrymen are involved in (war, pows, etc). 

The justification often is that it's their country and they make what they choose of it, but that outsiders shouldn't be dragged into a backwards nation's atrocities.  On some levels I agree with this sentiment because I believe it is up to the people of Laos to set their country straight (or suffer the consequences), but I don't agree with feeling overwhelming sympathy for a woman who chose to deal drugs in such a nation when thousands of native Laotians have likely suffered a worse fate.  It's this urge to 'protect our own' even when they aren't people we know, just fellow countrymen, that makes these issues so prevalent, but at the same time I don't think it will do anything to help the natives in that country who are regularly subjected to the same tyranny Samantha has been.

[Dualnames]

Andail, care to tell me what's with the hostility? Had a bad week? Got fired?

You know what nevermind this. Flame the forums saying how much you like me, whichever way you want. I won't mind. I'm barely interested in your opinion on me to care enough.

Surprised though, I'm the only person who shitposts. At least the only one you notice.

"Keep, Dualnames covered, we'll handle the rest."

[Andail]

Andail, care to tell me what's with the hostility? Had a bad week? Got fired?

Hm? I must have missed something

[Nacho]

I don' t know why Petter (Andail) did what he did, and I am 100% for free of speech, but I must say that I partially agree in the "spirit" of his rant... There' s no need to post in EVERY post, Dual, at least if your contribution is going to be "Here comes the forum troll". Who is the forum troll? You? Why do you need a post to announce that you are a troll? Why do you feel like a troll, anyway? If you feel like a troll, why do you post? Is RickJ the troll? Why?

I don' t know... Your "Here comes the forum troll" is not only not interesting, helpfull or funny, but it is also a bit unclear...

[Dualnames]

I have to agree with you Nacho, yep, lately I've been posting like a bloody maniac. And without any reason too. Sorry if I'm acting like an asshole or anything, hope no harm's done.

[Stupot]

Back on topic  :

Well, it's looking more and more likely that she'll be able to serve her sentence in the UK... that's MORE than fair.  If this is true then she's a VERY lucky girl... I still have no sympathy, and if she ends up walking free I'LL be writing letters.  But I really don't think this news has anything to do with any Facebook groups.

[bicilotti]

Back on topic  :

Well, it's looking more and more likely that she'll be able to serve her sentence in the UK... that's MORE than fair.  If this is true then she's a VERY lucky girl... I still have no sympathy, and if she ends up walking free I'LL be writing letters.  But I really don't think this news has anything to do with any Facebook groups.

Fair I'd say. I didn't post because I agreed with RickJ; so, yay for outcome.
How much is it in the UK for smuggling 500g of drugs?

[Hudders]

The maximum penalty for possession with the intent to supply a class A drug, (heroin), is a life sentence and/or an unlimited fine.

If she somehow manages to prove that the drugs were for personal use, the maximum sentence is seven years in jail and/or an unlimited fine.

[Mr Flibble]

I wonder what the actual fine would be.

[FSi++]

I wonder what the actual fine would be.

Teh infiniteness of moneys!