Cannabis' Reclassification

[Nacho]

For me this is quite funny... Most of "pro-legalise it", say "Alcohol is as bad as marijuana... Or even more!".

Nobody says: "Marijuana is as healthy as sport" or "Marijuana is as healthy as a good mediterranean diet".

Some "pro-pot" guys deffend marijuana saying that there are worse things legalised... Ain't it silly?

They should try to praise the healthy things marijuana has (of it does...).

If it has no positive effects, IMO, their efforts should go to try to ban alcohol, not trying to legalise pot. Otherwise we should finish saying thigs like: "Let's legalise freedom to amputate some other people's legs! It's not so bad as killing them!!!".

No? 

[Calin Leafshade]

For me this is quite funny... Most of "pro-legalise it", say "Alcohol is as bad as marijuana... Or even more!".

Nobody says: "Marijuana is as healthy as sport" or "Marijuana is as healthy as a good mediterranean diet".

Some "pro-pot" guys deffend marijuana saying that there are worse things legalised... Ain't it silly?

They should try to praise the healthy things marijuana has (of it does...).

If it has no positive effects, IMO, their efforts should go to try to ban alcohol, not trying to legalise pot. Otherwise we should finish saying thigs like: "Let's legalise freedom to amputate some other people's legs! It's not so bad as killing them!!!".

No? 

No, Thats bollocks.

We shouldnt illegalise things because they medically bad for us.

Rock climbing is dangerous... Cream cakes are bad for us... horse riding is dangerous... even driving is statisically dangerous.

The fact of the matter is that it is not up to the government to mandate what is good and bad for us. It is up to the government to educate us on the dangers and catch us when we fall.

[The Bedminster Incident]

As pointed out earlier, legalisation has positive effects, p.e. shrinking consumption rate, economic advantage (i.e. tax) and such.
Plus, I find that an educational approach more often than not works better than prohibition. See p.e. the US of A in their 1920s.

Q.e.d.
/tbi

[Lufia]

There are over 400,000 tobacco related deaths each year. [source] *

Given that marijuana is often smoked in conjuction with tobacco, that can easily become an argument against it. And breathing smoke in general just can be good for your lungs, no matter what you smoke.

Anyway, what I find worrying about possible findings on cannabis is that it would allegedly exacerbate existing mental conditions or render more likely to develop one, schizophrenia being the example that was given. Maybe the physical effects are less dangerous than that of tobacco or arcohol but that doesn't mean effects on mental health should be treated lightly. Governments should tread carefully, is all I'm saying.

Well, legalizing cannabis would at least make all the ongoing research on its effects easier.

[Matti]

Anyway, what I find worrying about possible findings on cannabis is that it would allegedly exacerbate existing mental conditions or render more likely to develop one, schizophrenia being the example that was given. Maybe the physical effects are less dangerous than that of tobacco or arcohol but that doesn't mean effects on mental health should be treated lightly.

I don't know anyone who got any (mental) problems due to smoking. I doubt that a drug simply causes things like shizophrenia, unless the person already had mental problems. I know people who had bad experiences with marijuana and they did the obvious thing: They stopped smoking it.

Also, the prohibition is useless, because one can buy it anyway. Who wants it, gets it.

Governments should tread carefully, is all I'm saying.

I can't understand the people here who mention the government. Who gives the government the right to decide what drugs the people should consume? Is the government some enlightened entity which knows what's best for the people? They also send young adults to senseless wars in foreign countries....

Also, as it's been mentioned before: There are lots of addictions: I don't think sitting in front of the TV for 10 hours a day is any better than being drunk every day. I doubt eating burgers and fries until you don't fit in a carseat anymore is any better than being unemployed due to excessive marijuana consumption.

That's no reason to forbid these things. People who get obsessively addicted by whatever have some problems and the answer is to solve these problems, not to ban things. Drugs (at least the soft ones) don't turn healthy, happy people into junkies. I've only had good (or mediocre) experiences with weed and so do most of the people I know. If someone has some problems, then I shouldn't smoke it either?

[Calin Leafshade]

Yeah, some people have bad experiences going on rollercoasters... so they dont go on one again.

[Lufia]

I doubt that a drug simply causes things like shizophrenia, unless the person already had mental problems.

Did you just ignore half of my sentence or is the meaning of "exacerbate" unclear?

Let me explain my train of thought better on that one:
Who smokes irresponsibly because it's cool (tobacco and/or pot)? Teenagers. Who's mentally fragile? Teenagers as well. Is it a good idea to give teenagers a drug that would potentially aggravate any mental problems they have? (If that reasoning is wrong, enlighten me.)

If there is a risk to public health, it's the government's problem. They are campaigning against tobacco, alcohol and junk food where I live. For the freedom of reasonable adults to smoke their fortnightly joint we should let teens be heavy smokers with possibly disastrous consequences? Hence 'tread carefully'.

You can call that stance hypocritical given that alcohol and tobacco are legal. But that's exactly what makes this problematic different. Instead of the "worse things are legal" argument, you should examine the benefits / disadvantages of legalizing cannabis without shaky comparisons to other drugs. I hear all of you on the possible benefits, just pointing out what in my opinion is a possibly very big disadvantage here.

[Andail]

When I look at it objectively, I think it's absurd that alcohol is legal.
Think of all the crimes we wouldn't have, all the domestic violence we would avoid, all the drunk driving we wouldn't have, all the loose cannons that would be less loose.

I enjoy alcohol myself; in fact it does wonders for me, but I would gladly sign up for a total, global ban. If I could push a button that would blow up all alcohol and erase the entire concept from the memory of mankind, I would, because I think it would be so beneficial for our world.

I think the alcohol vs. canabis debate is slightly flawed. Haschis and marijuana are not at all as intertwined in our society as beer and wine. The latter carry an enormous cultural weight, and are much more than just means of intoxication, which is why it's relatively easy to ban various peripheral drugs and substances, but nearly impossible to discuss a banning of alcohol.

Also, when people list all the facts and numbers that support the legalisation of cannabis, I think they must be forgetting or at least ignoring several factors.
I know of people who've had psychoses, and entered depressions, after just haschis usage, and I often hear that people who smoke a lot during a long period of time seem to sort of get lost in time, and later say that they felt how they disappeared during that time, and afterwards can't account for whatever happened during that period. I don't mean a literal unconsciousness; I mean that they function almost as normal, but can't really use their time well. I dunno really, just thinking loud right now.

[InCreator]

I had my experiments when I was younger, didn't like it much and don't care more or less about either legalization or opposite. Whichever way reduces crime is probably best way. And crime as in big money moving through cartels and corrupting powers, not "omg you smoked something"-crime.

But what I don't get is argumenting with casualties.

There are over 2 million alcohol related deaths each year [source] *

There are over 400,000 tobacco related deaths each year. [source] *

...and? Infamous Zyklon B gas killed 1.2 million people in nazi death camps, "only". That's during 3 years and still less than alcohol does in a year! Should we legalize it now?

[FSi++]

There are over 2 million alcohol related deaths each year [source] *

There are over 400,000 tobacco related deaths each year. [source] *

...and? Infamous Zyklon B gas killed 1.2 million people in nazi death camps, "only". That's during 3 years and still less than alcohol does in a year! Should we legalize it now?

Er, wasn't it legal? For personal use at least, not for holocausting other people.

[Darth Mandarb]

But what I don't get is argumenting with casualties.
...and? Infamous Zyklon B gas killed 1.2 million people in nazi death camps, "only". That's during 3 years and still less than alcohol does in a year! Should we legalize it now?

The legalization argument must be made to the "law makers".  Those law makers site, as their reasons as to why it's an illegal drug, the harmful effects of marijuana.  Pointing out (my links) that there are worse vices that cause more harm, and that are legal, is a valid point to make.  I fail to see where the confusion comes in there?

Relating it zyklon B actually helps my point (though I'm not sure why you'd make the connection ... it's not like a murderous regime is throwing people into shower rooms and making them drink vodka until they die from it).  Zyklon B was originally a pesticide (legal to own) and was altered to be used in the death camps.  Chlorine (which millions put in their pools every day) could be used just as lethally as Zyklon B (mix in a little ammonia and you get mustard gas (I realize it's a tad more complicated than that)) and is totally legal to buy.  Should we make the sale of chlorine illegal too?

As I stated in my previous post; just about anything can be used in a bad and/or harmful way.  Marijuana is [in my opinion] less harmful than alcohol or cigarettes (or chlorine) so it doesn't make sense for it to be illegal when those others aren't.  Again, I don't partake in the herb, I just find the situation silly.

Also, personally, I find this debate useless as it's seemingly as strong as the religion v science debate with both sides so strongly opposed to the other.

However; to those against the legalization I'd suggest getting ready for disappointment.

[Andail]

Also, personally, I find this debate useless as it's seemingly as strong as the religion v science debate with both sides so strongly opposed to the other.

Oh come on!
Debates aren't useless just because people disagree strongly. I came into this thread with a pretty open mind, and I've already shifted a lot in my opinions.

I mean, we have to be able to discuss something in here, more than just general mindless whackiness.

[Lufia]

Marijuana is [in my opinion] less harmful than alcohol or cigarettes (or chlorine) so it doesn't make sense for it to be illegal when those others aren't.

I really don't get that kind of argument. Snorting bleach is certainly more harmful than snorting cocaine, let's legalize cocaine? The last trendy thing in clubs is to drink industrial solvents to get high, apparently. Do we legalize all hard drugs because the solvent kills you faster than them?

If you start reasoning like that, you just end up legalizing everything. And when you see how unreasonable people can be, that can't turn out in a good way.

[discordance]

The thing that concerns me most about all this is the level to which governments are starting to tell us what's good for us and what isn't. Where I live there's a lot of concern about fatty/sugary foods, and talk of banning some of the more harmful fats from food products. I don't smoke at all, but I know some people do and from what I can see they're not damaging society. They may be damaging themselves, I don't know, but it's not the government's place to tell them they can't do that. Once we let them start they can ban anything -- McDonald's, speed skating, sex -- that they think isn't good for us. That may seem extreme, but I think we're starting down that road, and it's a little bit scary.

[Matti]

I doubt that a drug simply causes things like shizophrenia, unless the person already had mental problems.

Did you just ignore half of my sentence or is the meaning of "exacerbate" unclear?

Yes, sorry. It was indeed unclear.

Let me explain my train of thought better on that one:
Who smokes irresponsibly because it's cool (tobacco and/or pot)? Teenagers. Who's mentally fragile? Teenagers as well. Is it a good idea to give teenagers a drug that would potentially aggravate any mental problems they have? (If that reasoning is wrong, enlighten me.)

It's a myth that teenagers are per se (mentally) fragile. Yes, for many it's a difficult time, but it's not a difficult time because they can smoke or drink.

For the freedom of reasonable adults to smoke their fortnightly joint we should let teens be heavy smokers with possibly disastrous consequences? Hence 'tread carefully'.

If I want to smoke I want to smoke. It's my personal life choice. As it's been said already, food consumption isn't prohibited, just because it can lead to obesity (which is VERY unhealthy). Why isn't it forbidden? Because it would be crazy. Of course people should eat as much as they want to.

I don't want to do without marijuana, just because some people have problems with it - just like I don't want to do without a bread knife just because some people use it to stab people.

Instead of the "worse things are legal" argument, you should examine the benefits / disadvantages of legalizing cannabis without shaky comparisons to other drugs. I hear all of you on the possible benefits, just pointing out what in my opinion is a possibly very big disadvantage here.

I never made that argument but it is indeed valid, like Darth just pointed out. What should people think who like weed and don't like alcohol? They have to get an illegal drug from the street, while others have fun in bars and can buy their legal drugs everywhere. Isn't that a bit unfair?

The thing that concerns me most about all this is the level to which governments are starting to tell us what's good for us and what isn't.
(...)
I don't smoke at all, but I know some people do and from what I can see they're not damaging society. They may be damaging themselves, I don't know, but it's not the government's place to tell them they can't do that.

Seconded. People should have the right to damage themselves (regardless of how stupid it might be). Suicide shouldn't be a crime either.


Edit: The most obvious argument once again:

Many, many people smoke weed and everyone who wants to, does so. Why should there be a problem with legalizing it then? Instead, I only see advantages, like better quality, less (drug related) crime, more tax income...

[Nikolas]

Matti: Controlled alcohol consumption, food consumption and smoking does not alter your mentality. Heavy alcohol drinking and drugs do. It's one thing to have a few cigarretes, which is your choice and get on with your life, and another to have heavy bouze/drugs and then without being able to control yourself (to an extent, or whatever, can't get into any research now) to hurt someone else.

I've not tried Cannabis, and I don't smoke, so I don't have first hand experience, so the above is not about Cannabis but as a general comment to the idea of "I do what I want to do...".

[Lufia]

It's a myth that teenagers are per se (mentally) fragile.

Then my argument doesn't stand as such. Ill effect of cannabis on mental health still shouldn't be discarded altogether when making a cost/benefit analysis.

As it's been said already, food consumption isn't prohibited, just because it can lead to obesity (which is VERY unhealthy). Why isn't it forbidden? Because it would be crazy.

If people don't eat, they die. If people don't smoke... my, there's a chance they could live longer! Why isn't McDonald's banned? Money. They're a big company and employ a lot of people. That's always the crux of the matter, isn't it? That doesn't prevent my government for campaigning in favour of eating 5 fruits and vegetables per day. Oh the horror! They're meddling!

What should people think who like weed and don't like alcohol? They have to get an illegal drug from the street, while others have fun in bars and can buy their legal drugs everywhere. Isn't that a bit unfair?

And I can't have my daily fix of heroin legally! So unfair! If you are for legalizing every substance then your position is coherent. Are you?

Seconded. People should have the right to damage themselves (regardless of how stupid it might be).

Then any public health campaign is pointless?

Why should there be a problem with legalizing it then? Instead, I only see advantages, like better quality, less (drug related) crime, more tax income...

Organized crime rarely deals only in cannabis, as far as I know. Again, let's legalize hard drugs to step on the dealers' turf?

I see you bring up tax income. Over here, the government started cracking down on tobacco fairly recently. Why the shift? Because the cost of all the medical problems caused by smoking finally outweighed any benefit in tax income. Legalizing cannabis means more smoking-related diseases (breathing smoke = not good), will the tax income outweigh that?

And actually, not everybody that would potentially smoke weed if it was legalized smokes it now. I'm an occasional smoker. If cannabis was legalized, I'd do it. But for the amount of smoking I do, getting cigarettes instead is less of a hassle. And I know a good deal of people that simply don't break the law when it come to buying illegal stuff. Crazy people.

[HillBilly]

I see it like this: Either we can keep supporting criminals economically or we can remove their biggest income by legalizing and taxing drugs. People will continue to use them both ways.

[Darth Mandarb]

Oh come on!
Debates aren't useless just because people disagree strongly. I came into this thread with a pretty open mind, and I've already shifted a lot in my opinions.
I mean, we have to be able to discuss something in here, more than just general mindless whackiness.

Oh I agree!  I'm not saying this type of debate should be banned or anything.  Just that it seems like it's pretty similar to the religion/science debate which never really goes anywhere but back 'n forth and back 'n forth over and over until eyeballs start bleeding.

"marijuana is bad"

"no it's not, show me evidence"

Back 'n forth.

I'm not likely to be swayed off my opinion unless somebody can present something (fact/evidence) that I've not heard a thousand times already and don't see as a good point.  I am willing to change my opinion, and will listen/read the replies, but I've had this discussion many [many] times before and nobody has ever presented anything that makes me see marijuana as a "bad" thing that deserves to be illegal.

The question(s) I usually ask those that dislike weed (don't smoke it) and think it should remain illegal is:

What harm would its legalization have on you?  Do you think, if it's legal, you'll suddenly have a harder time not smoking it?

I'm sure there are those out there (who don't smoke it solely 'cause it's illegal) who might be interested in trying it when it becomes legal but I don't really see a huge increase happening where zombie-stoners suddenly rise up and overtake the government.  Most pot-heads I know tend to be peaceful and (sometimes annoyingly) chatty.  Places that sell junk food would certainly see an increase in sales.

Legal or illegal millions of people are going to smoke it anyway.

[Matti]

If people don't eat, they die. If people don't smoke... my, there's a chance they could live longer!

I mean eating too much. People who eat to much hurt their bodies, people who do too much drugs too. Where's the difference? That some fragile people can get some mental problems? That's body related too and can be caused by anything else too, like family, job, school and whatever comes to your mind..

Why isn't McDonald's banned? Money. They're a big company and employ a lot of people. That's always the crux of the matter, isn't it? That doesn't prevent my government for campaigning in favour of eating 5 fruits and vegetables per day. Oh the horror! They're meddling!

They can campaign in favor of whatever they want. They let people destroy themselves at McDonalds and I'm not for banning McDonalds. I'm for people realizing that they shouldn't eat crap of a fucked up corporation.

And I can't have my daily fix of heroin legally! So unfair! If you are for legalizing every substance then your position is coherent. Are you?

Basically, yes.

Seconded. People should have the right to damage themselves (regardless of how stupid it might be).

Then any public health campaign is pointless?

No. A good healthcare and education about health, drugs etc. is an important thing, still people should have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies.

Why should there be a problem with legalizing it then? Instead, I only see advantages, like better quality, less (drug related) crime, more tax income...

Organized crime rarely deals only in cannabis, as far as I know. Again, let's legalize hard drugs to step on the dealers' turf?

I'm not talking about organized crimes, I'm talking about the people in the streets, selling me some marijuana. They could work in a shop, legally selling good quality stuff, instead of being arrested for providing service to people like me.

I see you bring up tax income. Over here, the government started cracking down on tobacco fairly recently. Why the shift? Because the cost of all the medical problems caused by smoking finally outweighed any benefit in tax income. Legalizing cannabis means more smoking-related diseases (breathing smoke = not good), will the tax income outweigh that?

Forget that point, I just wanted to add something to that list 

And actually, not everybody that would potentially smoke weed if it was legalized smokes it now. I'm an occasional smoker. If cannabis was legalized, I'd do it. But for the amount of smoking I do, getting cigarettes instead is less of a hassle. And I know a good deal of people that simply don't break the law when it come to buying illegal stuff. Crazy people.

Okay, if it was legalized then you would do it. So what? Does that mean, you become mentally ill, get unemployed and lazy? Why should it? If it was that way you could just stop smoking it, since it isn't at all addictive. If people have problems with weed than they shouldn't take it. If they do drugs to flee from the harsh reality or something like that then prohibition doesn't help them. Prohibition of a certain drug doesn't solve any problems, it just erases one single way of dealing with / ignoring the problems.

As for the so-called "hard drugs": Yes, I'm for legalizing them too, despite not wanting to check them out myself. Regarding the demonized drug heroine for example: The main problem with that is there being a black market with bad quality, no education, lies about the drug and people being driven into stealing and looting to pay the given prizes.

Heroine does no irreversible damage to your body when taken in the right doses, it isn't dangerous to come off the drug again and the only real problem is overdose, and that's the same with the "soft drug" alcohol. I say education should be the main goal, not prohibition. Oh, and also, a society where you don't have to worry so much that you're likely to take too much drugs..