Pressure Points of the body

[Snarky]

Scientific methods such as that which you describe are also flawed. What size group should we work with in order for the results to be considered scientifically sound? Who should they be? How do we record how they feel? Through qualitative responses? (These are nothing more than a collection of anecdotes, by the way). Through quantitative measurement of their vital signs? (Jay's friend has already said that doctors find her perfectly fine, even though she still has bad migraines.)

There are statistical methods that lets you estimate how big a group you need to test to be able to generalize to the population at large (with a certain degree of confidence). In most cases you want a random sample within the population you want to study. Similarly, you can make standardized scales of qualitative responses which have been tested for internal and external validity, and by aggregating enough answers you can indeed put a numerical value on whether people feel better. You can also use measurements of vital signs, or proxy measures like number of sick days.

Scientists are very clever about testing effects. It's often a hard problem, most studies aren't 100% perfect, and we can't test every possibility, but even so it's not impossible to determine scientifically whether a treatment is effective or not. If something works, there is evidence, and if there is evidence, science can find it.

There is a virtually endless number of alternative and traditional remedies out there, and if we don't base our decisions on evidence we might as well throw darts at a board: "OK, I guess today I'll try voodoo charms. Maybe tomorrow I'll get crystal therapy or homeopathy!"

The danger is not only that it doesn't work, wastes people's time and money, and keeps them away from more effective options. It's also that most of these therapies come with a crackpot system of theories to rationalize how they're supposed to work. It spreads misconceptions and superstition.

Personally I don't see any reason to take pre-scientific medical theories any more seriously just because they're "Eastern." In Europe people believed in four bodily humors, "miasma" as the way diseases spread, and the efficacy of bloodletting. Why do we think the Chinese got it any better? The right attitude is to systematically test specific elements that seem promising, and incorporate the ones that are successful into modern medicine. For example, IIRC a recent study found no significant health benefits to taking ginseng. Investigate and evaluate.

As for the cultural element, people should of course feel free to do the things their mother did to comfort them, whether it's to drink Lemsip or chicken soup or see the local shaman. Just don't consider it treatment.

[Nacho]

I am sorry, I am not going to read the whole thread, just drop the impressions I got from MY SCIENTIFIC RADIO PROGRAM    During the few weeks we treated this kind of alternative medicines.

No one of them has proved to have a single effect on people... except, in a tiny, TINY degree, acupumture (sp?). It seems that nailing your body with small needles makes body create endorphines, which might help with mild kind of pains. The trick? It doesn't matter if the nailing is done in the "Ki channels, by a chinese doctor owner of a milenium knowleadge" or "by some ramdom guy, taken from the street".

Of course, it SLIGHTLY redouces pain, but doesn't cure the cause or anything. Of course, if the pain is too severe, it won't help, even a bit. And of course, there are way more effective ways of getting endorphines, like doing sports.

Any painkiller you can get at the pharmacy will be better than natural-produced endorphines.

So... as you can see... Nailing, preassuring or pinching the body is not worthy of the price they will ask for you to do it.

[auriond]

I find it interesting that people opposing reflexology and other types of alternative medicine put so much faith in science. All I can say is, although I have not been trained in traditional Chinese medicine, I have had Western education all my life, and I have been trained in scientific methodology. What I've learned from it is that what the layman knows as cold hard science is actually dogged by questions of validity, politics within the scientific community, and distortion by the media. Speculation is presented as fact and reported as such. So no, I can't take science as the be-all and end-all.

Even as a teacher of a social science, I do make my students aware that science is not the last word. The most we can do is accept it as what we know given our current technology and ability. We can then choose to act accordingly, or not. It's really up to the individual.

I know that in the end it's really a matter of difference in background and culture, but perhaps not in the way you think. I'm not saying it has worth just because it's Chinese. To the average American or British person, Chinese medicine is a fairly new concept, and I don't doubt that con-men rush to take advantage of this relative ignorance to make a killing on something that they themselves may not even know much about. And to the average Westerner, these con-men probably represent the whole of alternative "treatments". Not much I can do about that though.

Coming back to this specific thread - I still fail to see where the danger lies. As I've said before, if the question had been simply "How do I cure a headache?" I would say, see a doctor or take a painkiller. But the question here is "Doctors and painkillers don't work. Any other ideas?" How then is seeking alternative treatment posing any danger in keeping the patient away from more effective options? Should the answer be "Go back and see more doctors and take more medication until you find one that works"? I don't know about you, but that alone would tell me something about mainstream medicine, and not anything good either.

*sigh* The real irony here is that I don't even LIKE foot massages or reflexology. I'm actually quite ticklish. And I don't even have pierced earlobes, let alone acupuncture. But that's just me.

Is Lemsip not a valid form of treatment? I thought it has a pretty heavy dose of paracetamol somewhere in there.

[Layabout]

Every time I see this thread I miss-read it as 'Pleasure Points of the body'.

[Calin Leafshade]

Auriond:

No one is saying that everyone should immediately shun alternative medicine just because science cant explain it. We are saying you SHOULD shun alternative medicine if it can be demonstrably proved to be false.

Its not like scientists think its all nonsense to begin with and ignore it. It was tested and the tests were a classic null result. No effect. Nada.

Like I said before, alternative medicines have given us insight into alot of treatments but some were also found to be ineffective. Just because they all come under the umbrella of 'chinese medicine' doesnt mean they all have equal worth.

Reflexology has been shown to be bogus.

[Danman]

OK really arguing is not going to help. Just advice of what can help. Not arguing with other help.

(if that even makes sense)

If whatever works then great. It does not have to be scientifically proven to work.

[auriond]

No one is saying that everyone should immediately shun alternative medicine just because science cant explain it. We are saying you SHOULD shun alternative medicine if it can be demonstrably proved to be false.

And I'm seriously questioning the methods by which it has been demonstrably proven to be false. For example, leeches are back in fashion in the field of medicine these days, even after decades of having demonstrably "proven" to be worthless.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-07-leeches-maggots_x.htm

But anyway this is all pointless. I never meant to set out to convince anyone of anything. My statements were all made with Jay's particular situation in mind. He asked a question and I answered to the best of my own knowledge, as much to the point as I could. As I'm going to say for the last time, I am not a proponent of alternative medicine as a first resort. If I fall ill I'm not going to go to the local sinseh first. But if all else have failed then I see no harm in trying other methods, whether or not somebody with letters after their names tell me that these methods don't work.

To conclude, if it works for somebody, then it is a valid form of treatment for that somebody. I am not proposing that alternative medicine alone can cure the world's ills, I am not proposing that everyone reading this thread agree with reflexology or even try it, and I'm certainly not proposing that reflexology has worth just because some Chinese fellow came up with it several thousand years ago. I am simply saying that many people in this part of the world accept it and practise it alongside Western medicine, and that Jay and anyone else who feels that they have exhausted the possibilities of mainstream medicine should be able to feel free to try this route as well.

Speaking of exhaustion though, I've said more than I really should on this subject. I'm tired and I don't really blame anyone if people on the other side of the planet continue to believe that certain practices are hokey. I apologise for any unnecessarily provoking remarks I've made in this thread, and Jay, I'm really sorry that I've prolonged the debate this far.

[Intense Degree]

Personally I am sceptical of "alternative medicine", however, I am a big fan of the "placebo effect!"

I'm using a somewhat strange definition of "placebo effect" here but my point is essentially this. When I have a heavy cold I like to drink Lemsip. I have been told by many people on many occasions that I would do equally well or perhaps even better (and save some money!) just to take some paracetamol and have a hot drink but for some reason I feel Lemsip (or whatever store own brand) works better. I'm sure there is no scientific evidence for this and objectively it probably doesn't, possibly even demonstrably, but I also feel that if it is benefitting me more than paracetamol & a hot drink then I will take that, even if it is all in the mind!

So in summary if alternative medicine helps I'm fine with it, even if it is completely psychological, and for migranes etc. why not try it, but for anything more serious I would approach with extreme caution and use it as "supplemental" treatment rather than an alternative to surgery/"medical" treatment etc.

[Calin Leafshade]

Auriond, I don't think you need to be worried about provoking anyone. You are a rational, polite and civilised person. I don't think anyone has taken issue with the way youve conducted yourself... Why is everyone always so afraid of debate

As for your comment about leeches, thats fine. The strength of science is that it changes it's opinion to fit the data. If scientists found out tomorrow that reflexology can cure cancer and they could demonstrate that to be the case then I would sign up wholeheartedly.

Viva la data!

[auriond]

Thank you, Calin. I'm only particularly "afraid" of debate in this case because Jay started the thread with

Please.

I didn't mean to start an argument.

I just wondered if anyone could help. Thats all.

Thanks.
Jay.

.. and all the time I was arguing I kept feeling really bad about ignoring his request

If anyone else still feels like they want to continue the debate via PM though, my inbox is always open

[Danman]

Just start a thread called argue with everything or something 
I am surprised there isn't one already

[Huw Dawson]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-Science-Ben-Goldacre/dp/000728487X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263475233&sr=8-1

That is all.

[Khris]

Using a treatment that is based on the placebo effect is perfectly fine as long as the price tag is accordingly low.
Also, a placebo can still have an effect even if the patient does know he's getting one.
Thus, if I were to morally judge practitioners of alternative or Chinese "medicine", I'd base that on how much they charge and whether they're being honest about what they do.

The cool thing about science is that it has built-in auto-correction. It is the most perfect method of approaching objective truth (though it can never reach it) there is. It's as simple as that.
And advocates of alternative methods almost always display a sincere distrust in science. Sure, science is done by humans, so of course sometimes there's bad science. But these minor setbacks are bound to be corrected in the future.

Medical science has friggin' doubled the life expectancy in the last hundred years. Given that it was invented about twice that time ago, where's a comparable achievement by alternative medicine, especially regarding the popular argument that it has been around for thousands of years?

In short, if all physical and psychological causes have been thoroughly ruled out, go visit some quack if you must. But don't tell me that his "certificate" or "science" is worth more than zilch.

[Snarky]

No one is saying that everyone should immediately shun alternative medicine just because science cant explain it. We are saying you SHOULD shun alternative medicine if it can be demonstrably proved to be false.

And I'm seriously questioning the methods by which it has been demonstrably proven to be false. For example, leeches are back in fashion in the field of medicine these days, even after decades of having demonstrably "proven" to be worthless.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-07-leeches-maggots_x.htm

Not a very good example. Leeches today are being used in a completely different way, for a completely different purpose, based on a completely different medical theory than they were back in the dark ages.

If someone at some point in the future proposed that reflexology (minus the whole notion of mapping zones on the foot to regions in your body) could be used to treat depression, because the human contact and physical stimulation released certain chemicals in the brain, then that would be a completely separate matter and certainly an argument for it as a valid treatment for that particular purpose.

Current scientific opinion isn't right on all matters (usually because they've missed subtleties and exceptions to the rule), but represents the best available evidence. Like Khris mentioned, its success speaks for itself.

Every time we humans, as a species, say something doesn't work, or is impossible, within a few years we do/prove it anyway.

Actually, there's plenty of things people have long said are impossible that haven't been achieved. Most things, probably. We just tend to hear about the exceptions. Seen people travel in time? Go faster than the speed of light? Have we found a way to stop aging and live forever? What about reducing the entropy of a closed system? Have we achieved worldwide peace and universal equality?

[Nacho]

Auriond, if we don't use science for creating medical treatments... what do we use? I mean... what makes "a millenium treatment" different to "a treatment invented by the guy living in the third floor"? Time? Ancient does not marry well with science, specially having in mind that at those times they believed that earth was flat.

The "science is not all" blah, blah, blah it's fashioned, but quite empty, to be honest. Because, by definition, nothing real is opposite to science. There are real things that haven't been explained yet by science, not real things opposite to it. And curing things by nailing your body or touching your feet is totally opposed to science.

[Darth Mandarb]

Actually, there's plenty of things people have long said are impossible that haven't been achieved. Most things, probably. We just tend to hear about the exceptions. Seen people travel in time? Go faster than the speed of light? Have we found a way to stop aging and live forever? What about reducing the entropy of a closed system? Have we achieved worldwide peace and universal equality?

How about if I change it to, "So many times we humans, as a species, have said something is impossible..."

Grammar/phrasing aside, either way, the point is still valid.

[SpacePirateCaine]

Just to put in my two cents, and ignore the larger debate going on in the thread, I wanted to say that I'm an infrequent migraine sufferer, myself. I fortunately only suffer one, maybe two a year (Though they tend to come at inopportune times. I managed to find myself in the middle of one on Christmas Eve six or seven years ago).

In regards to reflexology and acupuncture, I live in east Asia (Japan, with a fair amount of time spent in South Korea), where these practices are very common and relatively highly regarded. I, myself, haven't used them nor do I practice them but my SO swears by acupuncture, and has an acupuncturist she visits from time to time when the headaches get bad. The effects may or may not be psychosomatic, but she seems to find relief from them, so I am glad she does it.

That aside, I'd like to address more specifically the migraines themselves - assuming she is suffering migraines.

In my case, I have learned to recognize the warning signs of an upcoming migraine. I start to lose peripheral vision, and certain spots within my line of sight, often near the center, become 'blanked out' for lack of a better term (I'd describe it as limited blindness, where I lose sections of my vision, but my mind attempts to fill in the blank by extrapolating from surrounding sources). If I find myself talking to someone and being unable to see their face except at an angle, then I know I'm in for a ride.

When you feel a migraine coming on, the best idea is to get somewhere dark (and in my case cold), to lay back with your head on something soft and gently apply consistent pressure to the point where your neck and skull meet. It seems to help relieve some of the building pressure. I find it usually best to try to sleep, because your day is shot anyway, and better to be unconscious through the worst of it.

An excess of caffeine or physical exertion seems to be the leading causes for me. Your friend should avoid any unnecessarily rigorous exercise, outside of her normal routine (If she already runs on the treadmill or does the 30-day shred, then just ratchet it back a little, perhaps), and try to stick to water instead of coffee or other drinks.

Not sure if any of my advice will be useful, everybody has a unique body and some things work better than others for different people, but can't hurt to try... At least not any more than the headaches.

[Danman]

My advice still is meditation cause mostly headaches and migraines are triggered from stress and thinking too much.
I was years ago suffering from migraines quite often like 1-2 a month. Now I suffer maybe 1 every 2 years or so.

(it is natural free and easy also you don't become dependent on anything.)

[Chicky]

Danman, i think you are getting migraines confused with headaches. It's a common mistake but migraines are in fact not just a really bloody bad headache but full blown reflex vomiting, loss of sight and weeks without sleep.

trust me, if you think that meditation can stop your migraine; your not having a migraine.

[Danman]

What else could migraines be caused by. but stress. I don't vomit or lose eye sight. I get like a white light on usually on my left eye for about 5 minutes of a day. And the pain is completely on one side of my face and is sometimes unbearable. And is always sensitive to light. I am pretty sure it is a migraine cause my doctor gave me migraine pills but that was like 4 years ago.

Like marijuana. meditation it is just to relax.

Edit: Also I get headaches all the time so I do know the difference. caused from thinking a lot.