Wanna do something different?

[madradubhcroga]

Hi there.  It's 4.36 am, and I've work in the morning.  But You know what it's like; I'm buzzing with my AGS dream, so I'll write this then send myself to bed. 

Yeah, AGS, I'm a fan. I made one short game for my degree show at art school that was about a year ago.  Didn't blow their brains right out the back of their heads like I'd hoped to, but the concept was right and I'm still working on it.

I kept the idea secret till now, foolishly worrying some other chap might stealing it.  That’s daft for many reasons, here are 2 of them: 
1.  I'd love to see this idea happen, way more than I want credit for it.
2.  It will be impossible without all kinds of help, on and off AGS.

So I'd like to talk a little about this game I'm working on, (provisionally) called 'Banshee', but first a little context.

(Like I said, it's late and I'm tired; I'll try to be concise, and accurate, but some of the things I want to say are going to be simplified and generalized to the point of being offensive.)

There’r things I'd spell out to anybody not into AGS, that I don't feel I have to tell you;  Stuff about computer games as art, about the commercial games industry being
Monolithic and trapped on a technological vector, leaving vast realms of creative inquiry, love and craftsmanship unexplored... all that stuff.

There’s other stuff that maybe you aren't so familiar with, which is relevant to ‘Banshee’.  Stuff about Ireland.

Ireland is a strange and special place.  I love Ireland, but She's a heartbreaker.  So much goodness and virtue, so much sadness and shame.

Here's something about Ireland.  This is delicate.  Wherever you're from, you probably know things about your country that outsiders will never really understand.  Well, I'm going to tell you a little about mine, but I'm going to say it in English.

That’s the point.  Ireland has her own language, and we can all speak it, but none of us do.  We are all taught Irish in school.  To get into college you need Honors marks.  To get a government job, you need to be fluent.  We have the language learned, but we never speak it.  It’s in stasis. 

It’s a kind of stigma that goes back hundreds of years.  See, for hundreds of years, Irish was a forbidden language, which (being Irish!) made our ancestors very determined to keep it.  Up until the middle of the 19th century, Irish was the first language of the Island, English spoken only by servants to English lords, in the cities.

So the Famine wiped out most of the Irish speakers (tenant farmers) and being able to speak English became a matter of life and death.
Irish became seen as a sign of ignorance and vulgarity, and was on the brink of extinction, but for a man called Douglas De Hide (first president of Ireland).  He realized what a colossal loss it would be, and began a movement to preserve and restore our native tongue.  The restoration of the language was a national ambition and an inspiration for the war o independence (if you think about what a language means, this is logical.) But with the civil war, and great disillusionment, the movement stalled. As they ran the schools, the language fell into the church’s care.  Whatever about God, the church in Ireland is an organization guilty of causing great pain and sadness to the people of Ireland. 


So.  Anyway.


The language, miraculously continues, but in a whisper.  It's a weird situation.  In Ireland, you must learn Irish, and though there are many wonderful speakers, the majority of the population a) have no confidence in their ability, and b) would rather not think about it.

Irish speakers speak with each other, but it’s kind of taboo to speak Irish among people who don’t.  (And Irish speakers are frequently guilty of the kind of defensive elitism which alienates non speakers still further.)

I love my language.  I love English too, but Irish is my true language.
I'd love to be able to inspire Irish people to spend time with Gaelic.  I want to make a game that blows their minds: actually connects all the disparate bits of Irish they have static in their brains, and gets them thinking in Irish.

  My audience will be shy and suspicious, their experience of the language having usually been a source of embarrassment and anxiety.  They haven’t experienced a need to think in Irish or use it for anything, other than school and state exams.  Even if they wanted to, they often simply dare not speak aloud. 

I believe that AGS software could spark an intellectual revolution.   
  Not one, many.

I know that ‘Banshee’ will have to be impeccably planned and executed; absolutely beautiful in every way a game can be, to do anything beyond what games normally do.  It'll also have to be smarter and deeper than any videogame has ever been.
Ok, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for reading this far.


Consider this:
The Irish words for ‘up’ ‘down’ ‘left’ and ‘right’ respectively are
Suas
Sios,
Cle
Deas.

Imagine this.
The opening scene:
A room with a character in it. 
An image of the 4 keyboard cursor keys appears.
The ‘up’ arrow flashes on and off.  Nothing happens until the player presses the corresponding up key on his keyboard.  Then 2 things happen.
1.  The character says ‘Suas’.
2. The character moves up.

The game has begun.  Little by little the player’s vocabulary is increased, by all the hotspots, characters and mouseovers in the game.  He can have a dictionary in his inventory getting updated with all the new words.

So.
  I want to make a very special game.

Anybody interested in helping out? It’ll take years. 
Titles released in Irish will be valuable to Irish Schools, the Irish Diaspora, and the millions of individuals who feel that their language is important, but have never had a game like this to develop their skills in the comfort of their own imaginations.

We do a good job, we’ll make history.
 

[GarageGothic]

Very interesting idea.  I like the idea of combining the learning of game mechanics with the teaching of a language.

In a way, getting used to any new piece of software is like learning a language - not just the special terminology it uses, but in terms of syntax (work flow, gameplay mechanics) and grammar (tool variations, keymapping etc.). Maybe I'm stretching the metaphor a bit thin, but having tried to learn using Zbrush lately I did find myself in a situation very similar to studying a foreign language, looking terms up in the "dictionary" (manual/wiki) every step of the way. Shortcut keys and tool usage is totally different from standard Windows/Mac applications, and most of the stuff that does seem similar has some kind of pidgin bend to it.

In other words, I think it would work. I remember playing through most of Secret of Monkey Island in German on the Amiga - I didn't speak the language at all, but at the time it was the only pirated copy of the game available to us. And after a while you actually could remember what each verb meant, and whenever one of your inventory items was mentioned in dialog, you'd pick up that word even if the rest was gibberish.

I love Ireland, but know next-to-nothing about Gaelic, so I'm not sure if I could be much of a help (or be able to keep interest throughout development). But I am building up a solid library of scripting modules that I'd be happy to share/modify for you. I have an as-of-yet unfinished tutorial module (giving the player directions, registering when he's performed the suggested action and provide feedback etc.) that might be suitable for what you're doing, though probably you need a bunch of extra features since it's such a huge part of the game.

By the way, somewhat unrelated but you seem open to working with others, you should really consider helping poc31 with Murran Chronicles 3 - he posted a while back, specifically seeking someone with knowledge of Gaelic culture.

[Ali]

It would be really nice if the game started in black and white, and gained the colour one by one as you learned the words for them (though tricky to implement with AGS's limit of 5 backgrounds per room!)

This does sound like a game only a Gaelic speaker can make, and I'm not sure you should aim to start a revolution straight away. However I'd like to know some Gaelic and I'd love to see a game like this.

[LimpingFish]

There's really two parts to this idea.

On the one hand, you have to make a game that's interesting and fun. On the other, you have to integrate the language using a system that feels organic; a system that doesn't just foist an Irish/English dictionary on the player.

Being Irish, I can see the reasoning behind this project; though I'm not sure I'd view the situation in such a dramatic way.

Regardless, it's an interesting approach.

[GarageGothic]

It would be really nice if the game started in black and white, and gained the colour one by one as you learned the words for them (though tricky to implement with AGS's limit of 5 backgrounds per room!)

But super easy using DrawingSurfaces and DynamicSprite.Tint!

[Ali]

DrawingSurfaces? Witchcraft!

[SSH]

HAve you ever seen the games Dun Darach and Tir Na Nog that were released in the 80s for 8-bit computers such as Spectrum and Amstrad?

Oh, and Alba gu bragh!

[RickJ]

I think you have a great idea and I understand your passion and motivation which are to be admired. 

Just wondering if your idea could be expanded to include other language options?   The reason I ask is that perhaps there would be a broader interest and perhaps you would be able to attract more volunteers.   We could possibly devise a devilishly easy way of producing language packs so if there are some folks one who would help if only it were in German or Spanish could have their wish.  They could contribute to the main parts of the game and then form their own language teams.   

Just wondering...

[madradubhcroga]

Great!

Thanks all for posting.


GarageGothic:  Thanks for your positive comments.    Programming is by far my weakest skill set with regard to game making: but It'll be a 
few months before I have to deal with that.  I'm good at drawing, so I'll be able to storyboard & concept art the game myself.  I'll start 
posting ideas somewhere when I've articulated them enough to share.  Your offer of sharing script modules is very generous, thank 
you.
(I've posted on poc31's thread- thanks for heads up.)

Ali: Black and white to colour:  That’s a freeking killer.  That's going in. 

LimpingFish: 'you have to integrate the language using a system that feels organic; a system that doesn't just foist an Irish/English 
Dictionary on the player.'

Yes!  Exactly. That's the central challenge that will make this work or not.  I think the key will be having a plot that is revealed by 
Images and actions, not long blocks of text.   I know poets and writers who work in Irish, who will help with dialogue and spelling when the 
time comes.  It would be nice to have a kind of escalation of complexity, so that by the end, the player is jammin' away 'as gaeilge'  totally in sync with the story s/he's partaking in.   

  '...view the situation in such a dramatic way.' I know what you mean.  I tend to get excited about this one.  When I get going on it, my  eyes glaze and I'd froth at the mouth.  Not very cool! 

SSH: I just looked them up!  Interesting!!  I can't believe I'd never heard of them! 
oh, agus viva na gael!


RickJ:  That's a tricky one.  Opening the project to other languages has advantages in terms of getting more people interested, and I like the  sound of 'devilishly easy.'  but there are some problems.   It's minority languages that benefit from this project.  Maybe Scots Gallic or Welch speakers would be ready to roll up their sleeves, but most commercial games are routinely  translated into languages like German & Spanish, and those countries already produce their own games too.  And though I think AGS would be great for a 'learn to speak spanish' game for non native speakers, the requirements are different.
  I'm not sure.  For  now, I'm going to plough along with the Irish language in mind;  but if you care to elaborate your idea more details welcome.

I haven't made any decisions about style or plot or setting or content yet, (suggestions welcome) but I imagine parts of it will be set in a roughly alternative mythological Ireland ( steamCelt?).  I don't mind borrowing heavily from classic games and using the best of what has gone before (in any game genre, any language.) so again, suggestions welcome. 

thanks folks.

[Fusiomax]

its a very interesting idea, i dont see much of a way i can help.

but i will say this when learning a language you should learn some of the culture and ireland has such a colourful culture.
The Music.
The Myths and Legends.
The History.
and many other things that i fear typing for i may get carried away.

but suffice to say the background music could be traditional irish music and some of the puzzles could be based on some of the old irish legends such as that which revolves around The Tuatha Dé Danann.

but obviously feel free to ignore me 

Fusiomax

[Wonkyth]

I haven't got anything to add, but I support the idea.
I'll be watching this...

[Mr Flibble]

I think using a well designed adventure game to teach a language is an amazing idea, and I'd definitely play a game like this.

I'm from Northern Ireland, and I absolutely understand what you mean about the Irish language being considered almost a thing of shame, to be hidden and not talked about. Infact what you said really struck a chord with me, we don't actually learn it in the north, but there's a very strong bias and suspicion against it. If you were to learn Irish, people would instantly assume you were a Republican. I also think a modern teaching method like this would be brilliant for helping to get rid of that pastoral, rural image Irish is mired with.

I can't say I know any Irish, but I do know some Dutch, which I'm told is one of the three languages (Irish and Arabic being the others) to contain the throat G (that horrible throat cough of a letter). My experiences of learning Dutch would have been so much easier if I'd had practice on the Irish throat G (it's probably not a G in Irish). That said, the throat G is probably the thing people will have most trouble picking up, I'd suggest either looking into using the softer alternative (an H, plus a throaty exhale) or giving some special help with the pronunciation of it. For instance, I find it easier to say if I imagine it as a kh sound. Or, better yet, you could anchor it into familiar words like the Scottish loch, which has the same sound (ch).

[Ghost]

I would like to add that much of my interest in learning English- properly- is due to an old Infocom adventure. Each time I typed "kick the bucket" I died. I had to ask my teachers what I had done wrong, and finally understood that knowing the *words* is just not enough. So I really see the point of the project, and wish the best of luck and sucess!

[Captain Ricco]

Maybe the main character doenst speak Irish by the beggining of the game, and has to learn his way along with the player as the game develops?

Natturally, all the "mythical creatures" wouldnt speak english, so, he'd have to.

And maybe using a "write action"  system like "Trilby's Notes" could be interesting, i, for one, am not a native english speaker, and that game "forced" me to expand my vocabulary a lot because of that.

Maybe another language that could take advantage of such a game would be Latin

[madradubhcroga]

Thanks for comments and thoughts.  I try to explain what I'm at sometimes, but this is the first time (including Art school) I felt anybody really 'got' it.  
Indie game making is tough; you really have to believe in yourself and your ideas.  So thank you.  



After considering different options and compromises, I've decided to do it fully in Irish.

I'm working on design right now, and it's going well.          


Provisionally my plan is to:

continue to build reference material in notebooks and on my drive.  It’s chaotic, but loosely consists of

Backgrounds,
Characters,
Bits of dialogue,
Plot ideas,
Interface ideas.

I'm reaching wide, but confining myself to Middle Ages stuff with a fantasy or horror vibe.

I hope to distil this (by the end of the summer maybe) into a single notebook that reads like a walkthrough, and deals with all aspects of the game except programming, music and sound.  Then use that as a technical manual to compile the game.




Further comments and ideas welcome.  Particularly want to hear about game making methodology, and tips to increase efficiency, or anything that you think might be helpful or interesting.