AGS Graphics Resource Sets

[Alun]

So... this post got me thinking about Insta-Game.  You know, the resource pack of pre-made graphics for people to make games with who may not be good at graphics themselves, or who may just want to try things out in a hurry.  The Insta-Game resources always seemed to me to be a good idea... but it seems not much was done with them.  If I'm interpreting the Insta-Game site correctly, there hasn't been an update since 2006.

Granted, not all that many games were ever made with Insta-Game.  But I think part of that may be because the Insta-Game only ever had graphics for a single setting and genre.  Maybe if there were more graphic sets available -- modern-day, maybe fantasy, maybe a pirate set? -- it would be used more.  Couldn't hurt.  (For that matter, couldn't hurt to have some Insta-Game resources in different resolutions and color depths, too, rather than only in 8-bit 320x200.)

I'm not bringing this up because I want more graphics to be available for my own use and am trying to use a roundabout means to push people into providing them.  Quite the opposite, in fact; I'm interested in contributing graphics myself.  (I'm working on a number of games of my own, but I don't want to seriously start on the graphics for them until I have the story and puzzles completely planned out... and, since I'm a bit of a perfectionist in that regard (and also since I have about a thousand other projects I'm working on), that's taking a long time.  But I'd be very happy to contribute to the community by making some Insta-Game graphics in the meantime.)  So what are the chances of getting Insta-Game going again?  Are Mr. Colossal and Sylpher still interested in maintaining the project, and if so should I send any contributions their way?  Is anyone interested in having more Insta-Game resources available, or am I just beating a dead horse here?

[Edited to change the subject... no need to associate this with Insta-Game...]

[Calin Leafshade]

As a newbie I dont know exactly how it happened but I would guess that insta-game died a little because the RON graphics were updated so anyone wanting to make a game without doing graphics could use that.

Just a guess though.

[Alun]

Yeah, I think that's true (in fact, I considered mentioning something about it in my post above), but I don't think that ended up being a good thing either for RON or for Insta-Game.  For RON because it meant all these trial first games were made with the RON resources that ended up snarling up the RON continuity and cluttering it with subpar games (granted, there were some RON games that were their creators' first games but were quite decent games and made valuable contributions to RON canon... but there were others that, well, weren't).  And for Insta-Game because, well, yeah, as you say, it ended up kind of falling by the wayside.  So nowadays neither Insta-Game nor RON is used much.

I'm a big fan of RON; I have plans to create my own RON game someday fairly soon (just want to get at least one or two non-RON games under my belt first).  But I don't think it was ever meant to fill the function of Insta-Game.  I think you're absolutely right that it did end up somewhat filling that function, but, as I said, I don't think that's necessarily a good thing.  And maybe if present-day graphics had been available for Insta-Game (instead of just the space graphics that were and are the only ones available), it wouldn't have happened.

So, the question remains.  Regardless of the reasons for the decline of Insta-Game in the first place, are people interested in seeing it reactivated, and seeing new graphic sets made for it?

[Dualnames]

ASAIK Insta game was something totally different than RON. People wanted to make games, but couldn't make the graphics, and  people kept sending them to the RON. So this 'template' was created to allow AGSers to make games without being "forced" (not really,but that's how one would feel) to use a certain setting. Yes, there's not much inside the Insta-Game, but there have been a couple of games using it.

And it was created back in the EzBoards, when people couldn't draw jack s^&$.
Also I recall of seeing a post where Eric wondered why so many people downloaded the template but only less than ten games were released using it. Not sure if the last sentence actually happened.

[Alun]

ASAIK Insta game was something totally different than RON. People wanted to make games, but couldn't make the graphics, and  people kept sending them to the RON. So this 'template' was created to allow AGSers to make games without being "forced" (not really,but that's how one would feel) to use a certain setting.

Ah, OK, I got the chronology wrong... RON came before Insta-Game, and Insta-Game was created in reaction to it.  That makes sense; I stand corrected.  (I wasn't around when Insta-Game was started -- I've been around the forums a while, but not quite that long.)

Also I recall of seeing a post where Eric wondered why so many people downloaded the template but only less than ten games were released using it. Not sure if the last sentence actually happened.

I concede I would be one of those people.  I downloaded the template out of curiosity, but without ever having any intention of actually using it... I like making my own graphics.

Still, though, history aside, if Insta-Game had more packs available to it than just the 320x200 Space pack, if there were a more diverse set of premade backgrounds and sprites available for people to use, would more people actually use it?  I'd love to take an active role in contributing to the Insta-Game resources and making Insta-Game a going concern again, but I wanted to test the waters first to see if this is something anyone would actually be interested in.  (Even if the established members of this forum wouldn't use it, do you think it would be worthwhile for new game creators?)

EDIT: Hm.  After looking over the Insta-Game resources again, and reading at the Insta-Game manual, I'm not sure trying to jumpstart Insta-Game is the way to go after all.  I don't want to step on Sylpher's and Mr. Colossal's toes, but maybe it would be better to just start a brand new resource set, rather than trying to grab onto their figurative coattails and dredge up all the Insta-Game history.  So, heck, I think I'm just going to go ahead and do it; I'll make a resource pack that I'll make freely available for anyone to use.  It doesn't have to be associated with Insta-Game, and I don't really need to ask beforehand if anyone will use it; worst case scenario, no one uses it, but I get some drawing practice.  So, instead of asking whether or not it will be useful, I think I'll just ask what kind of resource pack people would prefer to see.  Er... I'd make a poll, but I don't see any way to do that (is it even possible to make polls on this forum?  Guess not), so I guess I'll just ask this the hard way:

Which of the following do you think would be the most useful for a resource pack (I can make more later, just want to know what to start with):

• City / Modern Day
• Fantasy / Medieval
• Space / Sci Fi (Yeah, Insta-Game already has Space covered, but maybe people would want higher-resolution graphics?)
• Pirates
• Other

Also, what resolution do you think would be most useful to make the resources in?

• 640 x 480
• 800 x 600
• 1024 x 768

(Yeah... I'm not even going to give 320 x 200 as a choice, given that my computer can't even handle that without scaling it up to 640 x 400...)

Don't know how soon I'll be able to really have a significant amount of resources available, but I'll try to get some out as soon as possible.  This way at least I'll be contributing something to the community while my games languish in the far too prolonged planning stages, and, hey, worst case scenario at least I get some drawing practice...

[Gilbert]

One problem was, as you mentioned, lack of contents in the pack.
There were only a few backgrounds and characters, limiting the setting. The few released games looked identical, which was a bit boring.
Eric and Sylpher did planned to expand the pack and at one time other people did mentioned they're interested in contributing to it but at the end it seems that people were just busy with their own stuff and things didn't happen.

This is sort of superseded by this thread but unfortunately it wasn't as successful and is not so active now.

One problem with the thread is that the free stuff aren't unified in style, and there're usually only a few pieces of art of each style, so if you want to use only pre-made materials from it you'll just end up with a game which contains randomly mixed-up graphics/sound/animation/interface/whatever and it certainly wouldn't look good.

I think a pack with a wide variety of ready-to-use materials but of matching style is a good idea, but making stuff is no easy business and it takes time. Talented artists may choose to work on the art for their own games other than spending their time creating loads of stuff for others to pick up.

[Dualnames]

Perhaps a list of tutorials would be nicer. Like Ben did not so long ago.

[Gilbert]

...

Did you mean... like this huge list?

[Alun]

I think a pack with a wide variety of ready-to-use materials but of matching style is a good idea, but making stuff is no easy business and it takes time. Talented artists may choose to work on the art for their own games other than spending their time creating loads of stuff for others to pick up.

Eh, you're probably right... I wanted to contribute to the AGS community, but this would be way more work than I realistically have time to do, especially for something that may never even end up being used.  The Insta-Game resources, after all, include more than fifty backgrounds, a dozen characters (some with multiple animations), and forty objects, and yet still lacks the content to make a variety of games.  It's unrealistic for me to expect to be able to match that any time soon, let alone surpass it, especially with everything else I've got on my plate right now, and I'm in no position to try to coordinate and encourage a community effort.

So... yeah; I think I sort of got carried away with this idea, but I'd be biting off more than I could chew.  Maybe I'll occasionally make an image or a character to contribute to the community and post it in the Contributions thread, but I'm not going to be able to put together anything to rival Insta-Game in the near future.  I'll just keep working on my own games for now, and hopefully soon I'll finish planning one and get started on the graphics and I'll have something to post in the Games-In-Progress forum...

[Atelier]

Another thing you could do (as in everybody, not just you Alun =D) is make a pack of silhouettes. Because, many people put place-holder graphics until after they do the coding. This would just make that process a bit quicker and would bulk out people's games so it's easier to realise.

Related to Insta-Game, why do the files download with .pcx extensions? I can view them, but if it's not just me it's a weird format to have them in.

[LRH]

I actually wouldn't mind putting my game resources up for grabs (shabby as they are) if anyone is interested.

[Dualnames]

...

Did you mean... like this huge list?

From that topic:

*edit 6/20/2010 - Thanks to Dualnames for weeding out the bad links.  All remaining links should work as of now.

I've been there. There are some good stuff, but a newbie would totally not bother. I'm talking about specific AGS members how-tos. Probably stupid. Well, never mind then.

[Gilbert]

Related to Insta-Game, why do the files download with .pcx extensions? I can view them, but if it's not just me it's a weird format to have them in.

Because it's the best format the editor support before it's dropped. Originally the editor supported only PCX and BMP and PCX was obviously a winner, especially when dealing with 8-bit graphics. Then PNG came (and also the ability to use Alpha blending sprites). It was just an unfortunate event that the editor dropped PCX support when it's moved to .NET .

I'm talking about specific AGS members how-tos.

Actually I don't understand a bit what you meant by this.

[MrColossal]

Hey there, so the reason behind Insta-Game was to just give people the beginnings of a game and give them tutorials on how all the art was made and make the style simple to emulate. Turns out people don't really want this at all it seems. While games were made with it and Dave Gilbert and Cornjob even used it, it's just not useful to most people.

RoN worked because there was energy behind it and a collaborative town being made, that too eventually ran out of steam but Insta-Game didn't have any steam to begin with. I think RoN is the most successful an Insta-Game like set up will get.

However, in other communities that make different games other than adventure games, Insta-Game like packs work great. If I made a bunch of tiles and baddies and running and jumping animations, someone could knock out a platformer with some interesting new mechanic that they wanted to try out. Adventure games are so... different... in that sense that it seems people need custom art not ready-made art to make a game.

[Alun]

However, in other communities that make different games other than adventure games, Insta-Game like packs work great. If I made a bunch of tiles and baddies and running and jumping animations, someone could knock out a platformer with some interesting new mechanic that they wanted to try out. Adventure games are so... different... in that sense that it seems people need custom art not ready-made art to make a game.

Hm... I'm not entirely convinced that's the case.  As you say, RoN certainly had a lot of momentum for a while.  And I don't think it's just because of the collaborative town -- for some people, that may actually have been a negative, in that it meant there was all the continuity they had to catch up on.  I think maybe the reason that the Insta-Game didn't catch on more was because it was a bit more narrowly focused.  It's probably easier for a lot of beginning game-makers to think of a story that could take place in a contemporary city setting -- including a shop, a bar, and many other locations ripe with adventure potential -- than on an empty desert planet and in a handful of caves and corridors (and later a bit of forest).  This isn't meant as an insult to the Insta-Game backgrounds in any sense; they're very well done for what they are... I just don't know that a desert planet and space aliens were the best choice for a general-use graphics pack.  Certainly, even with custom graphics, there are a lot more adventure games being made taking place in ordinary present-day Earth settings than in space, let alone specifically on desert or forest planets.

But of course, at this point all that's just speculation; you may well be right, and certainly having been involved in the creation of the Insta-Game you're probably in a better position to know than I am.   Maybe someday if I get the time I'll still try to put together some graphics pack of my own to make publicly available just to see what happens, but it's not going to be any time in the near future.

EDIT: Hmm... actually, I've just thought of a resource that may be much more useful than a simple graphics pack, and that I'm pretty sure doesn't exist yet.  The downside is that it'll take some programming to create it, and it's currently beyond my abilities.  On the other hand, I've been wanting to improve my programming abilities anyway.  So... I think I'm going to give this a shot.  Yeah, I know I'm being vague about what it is I'm planning on creating, but that's because I'm not sure how to explain it concisely, and I'd rather just go ahead and try to create it... but it's a resource I think a lot of game creators with limited artistic abilities or resources might find very convenient...  Now I just have to find some good documentation on programming with vector graphics...

[Ali]

I've got to agree with MrColossal. With an action-based game it's easy to say 'the robots are just placeholders, in the final game you'll have shoot lizards'. There's just no such thing as 'general use' for a narrative-based game.

I do agree with AG that silhouettes / template graphics would be useful for non-artists wanting to get to grips with AGS, though.

[Gilbert]

Hmmmm. As I didn't pay extra attention to how stuff progress at the time I could be wrong, but this is my guess:

For RON, people actually came together wanting to make games, so it's already been a given that they knew what kind of materials (style, etc.) they're going to create as a collaboration effort at the beginning. And thus people had the momentum of really start making games. It's only until later when more people attempted to join and more games were released that made it troublesome to keep the continuity of the story.

But for InstaGame, its initial goal was to make a selection of read-to-use generic materials (whether they're supposed to be used as place holders or actual content is irrelevant IMO), so the artists may not even have planned to use these stuff in their own games themselves (so they'd just lost interest in contributing after a while) and that unlike RON that you have some basic settings to follow, it is actually more difficult for people to make good use of the theme-specific materials in InstaGame with their own made-up universe (like Ali mentioned it's difficult to make 'general use' stuff for adventure games).

[Wyz]

Maybe a bit late but if anyone is going to give this a go I might have a few tips.
Firstly, instant game packs are for beginning developers, when they are not yet capable of making art themselves or they need something to show artists to get them interested in doing a project with them. Hence such pack would be a really great resource, and speeds up the learning process of future developers.
Secondly, such a pack needs to be very generic (in every way) because it must allow the user to do as much as he'd like to throw in there. It requires some thought but is possible, I've seen studios do it before, and I'm certain it would also work for adventures.

How do you make something generic? Well by abstracting both the style and the function as much as possible. Let the user define its function. Backgrounds should be empty film sets, make a set of props that (with use of smart perspective and tinting) can fit at any background. Create characters that are already animated. For instance: I use a sort of grab like animation in some of my games wich I can use for pickup, use, interaction an gestures, very versatile. Versatile animations and props / inventory is the key.
To get back to the backgrounds: make every set a different theme, give every set only one or two backgrounds but go wild on the sets:
- castle (to house a mad scientist, medieval king, a ghost,  etc)
- forest (fairies and witches, a field trip, campers, lost treasure)
- a city block (with generic stores, houses and alleys)
- a base (research lab, alien space ship, military)
- and so on

Concluding: multi purpose resources in combination with the imagination of the user will make it possible. The user will link the sets in a way he needs to, includes the props he needs, and writes the story he wants. He places a space ship in the forest and let the story continue in the base set. He connects the forest to the castle and tints it dark, and you have a scary castle in a dark forest. It might not be as good as when he'd have dedicated art, but he will get away with it.

If someone is going to give it a go I might be interested to do some assets.

[Alun]

If someone is going to give it a go I might be interested to do some assets.

Well, despite so many people who have been around longer than I have telling me what a useless idea it is and how nobody would ever want such a thing, I'm still stubborn enough that I'm not convinced and am planning to give it a try.    Though probably not any time really soon... I've got way too much on my plate right now as it is.

Though, as I hinted in a previous post, I've thought of (what I think is) a better idea as to how to go about it.  I was very vague in that previous post, but, eh, may as well go ahead and explain my idea.  Regarding characters, instead of providing a bunch of preset characters, I thought it might be better to write a program to allow the player to mix-and-match parts, facial features, and costume elements to customize a character, sort of like a Mii on the Nintendo Wii (though obviously not in that style), or like the various Flash dress-up "games" on the internet, except that instead of a single image the program would output walk cycles and talk cycles in eight directions (eight, not four, because I am a masochist apparently) -- and ideally idle animations and maybe a few other animations as well, but I'd probably save those for a later release when I was feeling more ambitious.  This would be a lot of work, but I think I could do it.  In order to allow the parts to be scaled, and the characters themselves to be scaled for different sizes and resolutions, I'd do it using vector graphics (which I currently have no idea how to do, programming-wise, but I'm sure I could learn it).  Ideally (though again this may not be implemented in the initial proof-of-concept release) the program would be able to read external files in some appropriate format for additional parts and costume pieces apart from those that come with the program, so add-on packs can be released later (including by other developers -- ideally (I keep using that word), anyone should be able to produce their own sets of add-on parts for use with the program).

Again, this is not something I'm going to be doing any time soon; it's going to be a big project, and it's going to take me a long time to do it.  But I really think it could be useful, combining the best of both worlds... users could have customized characters without having to be able to draw them themselves.  Of course, the characters would still be limited by the parts supplied and by some other details of the program, and experienced designers and skilled artists would still prefer to create characters themselves, but I think this would be very useful for beginners, or by anyone who wanted to throw something together quickly without taking the trouble of animating characters from scratch.

I was thinking something similar could be done with backgrounds, too, very much like what you were talking about with blank sets and props, except that instead of putting in the props as objects in AGS, they'd be positioned in the generator program and output as part of the image.  (Ideally, the generator program would create the walkables and walkbehinds too, taking into account the positions of the objects.)  I probably won't start on the background program till after I get at least a working demo of the character program, though... it would be easier to make, but I don't think it would be quite as useful.

Unfortunately, because of the way the program will work, all the assets will have to be in vector graphics.  (The program will output ordinary bitmap files (probably .png format), but internally it will have to use vector graphics.)  So I don't know how easy it will be for other people who aren't used to vector graphics to contribute.  (I am used to drawing in vector graphics, personally; I do my webcomic entirely in Adobe Illustrator.  But I know most people aren't so accustomed to them.)  But hey, just because I'm planning to do it this way doesn't prevent other people from doing packs of bitmap graphics.  The fate of the original Insta-Pack notwithstanding, I still think this is something that, as Wyz says, could be a great resource for beginning developers.

But, like I said, don't expect me to have my character/background generator programs done any time soon.  This is going to take me a while...