how far is too far...

[Perkele2012]

and when is too far way too far...

when it comes to story/graphics/sounds etc.

if you develope a game that is meant to be provocative, how far can you go before you cross the line?

just curious?

[WHAM]

The more provocative you make a game, the narrower the audience you can reach with the game.
Then again, I believe that those (like yourself, I would guess) who enjoy entertainment of a more provocative sort will enjoy the game even more for it.

There is no perfect solution, I'm afraid...

[EchosofNezhyt]

Well said wham.

[Andail]

Too far legally speaking or what?
Because it's very hard to draw lines when it comes to what people will enjoy or accept. People have different tastes. As long as you warn people what they should expect, go crazy.
If you feel the need to depict violence and nudity for the sake of authenticity and atmosphere, don't let people's opinions hinder your creative license.

[Tramponline]

Simple and complicated question at the same time. Great topic, Perkele2012!

That depends very much on the maturity & curiosity of your audience and their disposition
to 'enter on a journey' that might not always make them feel at ease.

And for me personally, it depends whether it's a provocation for the provocation's sake, or
if the overall vision will grant me new insights (very individual!) on certain topics, that are not my own.

Really have to think some more about this question... NICE! 

[Radiant]

This depends highly on which culture you're aiming for.

[WHAM]

I also feel the need to clarify this a little bit as to my own views:
If you are going for controversial subjects, offensive material and nudity+gore approaches, to name a few examples, make damn well suree you have a story and in-game context to show this sort of material. Offensive material just for the sake of being offensive and provokative is meritless and pointless and I personally find such endeavours highly disgusting. A game can have gore and other horrible, horrible things, but there has to be a justification for it in the game's story and characters.

An example of a bad idea: watch any of the Hostel movies, or perhaps Human Centipede. Or watch this nice movie called "A Serbian film" and you will definitely see how this provocation can go wrong.

[Crimson Wizard]

Just of curiosity, can someone elaborate what is that "line" that should not be crossed?
Is that a line at which players start to puke right where they sit, or come to your house with pitchforks and torches?

Also, doesn't it depend on what kind of "provocation" do you want to achieve?
What if you are going to, I don't know, provoke people to start World War 3 or something; should there be any limits then?

[WHAM]

I think the "line" is perceived to be the point at which the contents of the game stop being a source of entertainment and intrigue for the viewer, and become uncomfortable and repulsive. While this is subjective and each viewer perceives things differently, some things are generally seen as crossing "the line" almost globally. This is why, for example, the only country to really produce videogames about rape and sex with minors are the japanese (as far as I know at least) whereas elsewhere in the world such an ideas are seen as "crossing the line".

Does that answer your question in any way?

[Crimson Wizard]

Does that answer your question in any way?

Yes, I think so.

I was kidding a little bit though 

[WHAM]

I didn't even realize you were kidding, so my bad.
I always find discussions of this subject of interest, as I myself am a firm believer that there should not be any line to cross, that for entertainment all matters, subjects, styles and themes should be open for exploration and experimentation (as long as they are done well), and thus I am also interested in hearing other people discussing the subject to hear their opinions as well. I also think such discussion would serve well to answer (Suomi-Finland)Perkele's question, as well as to map out some general opinions in the AGS community, so it's a win-win situation.

[Radiant]

If you are going for controversial subjects, offensive material and nudity+gore approaches, to name a few examples, make damn well suree you have a story and in-game context to show this sort of material.

Well, maybe. There's also the ancient marketing maxim that "Sex Sells", so many products are known to be received better with some gratuitous nudity thrown in, even if it serves no purpose in the story.

The same applies to violence, as long as it's not graphical gore: a movie or game about fighting can be expected to sell even (or especially) without any kind of story.

[Crimson Wizard]

I didn't even realize you were kidding, so my bad.

As I said, I was "kidding a little bit". I mean, I was partially serious at the same time. Also I forgot to add smiley to my post! (funny how that changes the message)

It is obvious then that the "line" people are speaking about is being pushed further all the time by people who cross it.
If we keep that in mind, the answer on the topicstarter's question will be: cross the line a little; at first people will ban you, but later your work will be a part of mainstream. (Am I kidding now? heh)

What bothers me is rather the reason, why the game is supposed to be provocative on the first place? Is it because the creator wants to get some attention, or he tries to make his ideas more expressive?

[WHAM]

What bothers me is rather the reason, why the game is supposed to be provocative on the first place? Is it because the creator wants to get some attention, or he tries to make his ideas more expressive?

Those are the two ways. The first one is a bad thing and people who do that, provoke just for the attention and the sake of provoking, are bad people who make bad entertainment only to get attention.
It's the latter group whom I think should be those who push the boundaries and change things. I also want to belong in the latter group, as provoking people in a meaningful way can also be used to provoke thought from people, get them to re-evaluate their experiences, morals and values.

[Crimson Wizard]

I also want to belong in the latter group, as provoking people in a meaningful way can also be used to provoke thought from people, get them to re-evaluate their experiences, morals and values.

Lately (well, not last day, but maybe last couple of years) I was thinking that grotesque could be useful when you are trying to depict people's moral failures in such a way that they will better understand it; since people tend to get used to the ways they live, sometimes one needs either bright contrast, or strong exaggeration to let them see themselves from side-viewer's position.
Is it the same what you mean?

[WHAM]

Now we come down to what we want to show the viewer and how to justify such things in the game. When exaggerating things, I think it is quite easy to overdo the exaggerating and if we are, for example, talking about violence, then what might have been intended as thought-provoking commentary on the violence of human nature and existence can quite easily be perceived as nothing but mindless gratuitous violence without message. In here it is important to create the framework, the story, the characters and the situations in which these exaggerations are made, so as to not lose the intended message.

[Perkele2012]

The more provocative you make a game, the narrower the audience you can reach with the game.
Then again, I believe that those (like yourself, I would guess) who enjoy entertainment of a more provocative sort will enjoy the game even more for it.

There is no perfect solution, I'm afraid...

lol like myself... well it might be true that i enjoy provocative sort of entertainmen ( how do i say that without sounding like a really... really bad man... LOL )
it´s not really the provocative parts i enjoy, but what i dont like is when the choice aint mine to make, as an example, early fallout games, you could even kill children in those, wich was removed for the later parts. it didnt mean that i went on a killing kids rampage but the possibility that i could do something like it made the game feel more... authentic maybe...

i dont like provocation without a cause, i want it to fulfill a purpose... killing kids in fallout never had a purpose ( except bad reputation in the wasteland )
Fallout had prostitution,slavery and excessive use of violence,drugs,alcohol... most subjects quite provocating, tho it was made with style... so was never the shocker it could have been. another example... POSTAL!! wich purpose was to provoke and nothing more... i mean set a dude on fire then piss on him so he survives ( yes i did try that  ) but overall... a very very veeeerrrryyyyy bad game...

[Perkele2012]

and back to my own question...
i didnt really have any purpose other than see where people draw the line from where entertainment stops being entertainment.
I for one,just as soumi finland(WHAM) i presume, like to explore the more "darker" side of the human nature, to see what actually makes you tick.
( doesnt mean i do bad things hehe, im just wondering about them... )

[Vince Twelve]

Or watch this nice movie called "A Serbian film"

Note: do not watch this.

[WHAM]

killing kids in fallout never had a purpose ( except bad reputation in the wasteland )

Objection! One of the brats at the casino pickpocketed me so I blasted the damn runt with a full auto burst to the torso. Bastard earned AND learned her lesson!

Or watch this nice movie called "A Serbian film"

Note: do not watch this.

Yeah, I sort of used that thing (I won't call it a movie anymore) as an overt example of things gone wrong. You have to be a pretty jaded and twisted individual to come out of the experience without some mental scars. Wouldn't recommend it for the family movie night, or any other night.