Hero U Kickstarter, from the creators of Quest for Glory series

[Blackthorne]

A few weeks ago, Tom Hall and Brenda Brathwaite started a Kickstarter for "Old School RPG"... they had a $1,000,000 goal.  I looked at their pedigree in the games world, which was fine - but I always thought the pitch was too vague, and the more I read, the more I thought it was a shoddy campaign.  The Company they work for, Loot Drop, is owned by John Romero, for one... (I think I mentioned this earlier here...)

Well, the support really dropped off.  Kicktraq has it trending to only raising 50% or so of it's goal now.  Which is still $500,000.... that's a lot of dough to small indie developers, for sure. 

I do get mad at established game veterans throwing together these shoddy Kickstarters. 

Obsidian must have done something right, because they finished Project Eternity's KS with over $4,000,000 raised - beating DoubleFine Adventure.


Bt

[ThreeOhFour]

To be fair, the Shaker pitch was no more vague than DoubleFine's pitch, really.

And Project Eternity? Backed the hell outta that thing. A group of people want to make the game that I want that group of people to make. That's worth my money.

[Blackthorne]

Yeah, absolutely - Old School RPG was as vague as DoubleFine.... you know, though, I think that could only be done once, you know? Just because it worked for DoubleFine doesn't mean it will work for others.  In fact, I don't think you'll ever see that again.

Yeah, Project Eternity was well managed, though I wonder if they could have gotten traditional funding, or they just wanted to be in charge of the whole enchilada themselves.  I can understand that.

Bt

[Anian]

Thing is, and this is only few of the things that are "weak" here, is that they talk about old school RPG nut later it's described as a first person 3d EPG and the description of the story is lamey as well IMO.
On the other hand Project Eternitiy offered a lot of concept art and their description of the game IS an "old school RPG", but it's made with the influence of the old RPGs.
Double fine pitch was lame as all hell, but Schaffer has proven himself in adventure games and through time DF has proven as a company that keeps the spirit of his concepts with their original ideas and gameplay with every game they publish.

While on KS subject, using bad jokes in the videos is so damn annoying, I really don't know why everybody does it. 

[Blackthorne]

You know what also struck me about Shaker (Old School RPG) was that they had most of their stretch goals up immediately - and one of them was "two RPGS" from one Kickstarter, if they reached $1.9 million....

First, odd idea - just make one great game.  Second, I think it's odd to announce stretch goals so early - especially when you're already looking for a millions dollars.  Makes you look a little... pompous and greedy?  I dunno.  Sits odd with me.  I think it's better to announce any stretch goals once you've reached target.

Bt

[Igor Hardy]

Double fine pitch was lame as all hell, but Schaffer has proven himself in adventure games and through time DF has proven as a company that keeps the spirit of his concepts with their original ideas and gameplay with every game they publish.

I strongly disagree. That was one of the best pitches I ever saw and it concerned a great many things more than just the one game.

Also, the game itself was able to look so good without any specific info, because Schafer and Double Fine have enough personality and style on their own, and they used it perfectly for the advantage of this KS. More details about the project would possibly affect teh final sum raised negatively.

[Anian]

I strongly disagree. That was one of the best pitches I ever saw and it concerned a great many things more than just the one game.

Also, the game itself was able to look so good without any specific info, because Schafer and Double Fine have enough personality and style on their own, and they used it perfectly for the advantage of this KS. More details about the project would possibly affect teh final sum raised negatively.

"Lame" was a poor choice of words, but it was veeery unspecific. There's obvious proof that the pitch was successful, I'm not arguing that at all, and yes more details could've possibly hurt it, like if he said "Game is about a space pilot who has to save an alien planet" or something, some people would certainly say "Oh, well I don't want to play a space pilot." Nevertheless my point was that no matter how abstract a more specific pitch would've been or how crazy it would've sounded, kickstarter would have succeeded. Not many authors you can say that about, apparently including Hall and Brathwaite.

[Jared]

I believe your two arguments are not mutually exclusive.

Darth is right, Kickstarter is for the tiny unknown guys. But ktchong is right in a way too, you don't need to be Tim, but you need a reputation, you must prove that, time and again, you're capable of bringing a project to completion, tested and polished, even if they're just small indie titles.

I'd back this up. Somebody like, say, Yahtzee who has made several games and proven he has a grasp over writing and design and could do something with a budget and wouldn't want to go through a publisher could benefit from Kickstarter. (Yes, his internet fan base would help a lot too) Dave Gilbert would be another example, or the guys who made Slender. The mega success of Chris Avellone and Tim Schafer is because they have such big fanbases and they react strongly to the fact that a designer they love and respect cannot make the game they want to make.

[ktchong]

You can give money to people with no track record, no experience, no reputation, and no history of ever successfully completing and delivering a project.  It's your money.  But you'd be an idiot to do so.

So far, there have been a few failed Kickstarter projects.  People who got money from Kickstarters, and then folded and failed to deliver.  ALL were people with no prior experience, no reputation, no history, and had nothing to lose except other people's money. 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/08/30/when-kickstarter-fails-jack-houston-has-a-problem/

The most important thing here is REPUTATION.  People with no experience also do not have no established reputation.  If you want to throw away your money at some random people with no experience and no reputation, that's fine with me.  It's not my money.  Butt I would not give a dime to people who has no track record and no reputation.  Here are the discussions, and people agree: do NOT give money to people with no track record, no experience, and no history of ever making/delivering a similar product:

http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/first_successfully_funded_kickstarter_game_that_wont_be_finished_nor_released

The point is: if you launch a Kickstarter, you're just a random stranger on the Internet.  I don't know you.  I don't know if you are capable of delivering your promise.  There are millions of people who want free money just like you.  Why should I trust you over anyone else with my money?  How do I know I should give my money to you who have no experience, no reputation and not Lori and Corey Cole, Brian Fargo, Tim Schafer or Obsidian?  People whom I know can deliver because they have built up a reputation, because they have done it before?  If they can't deliver, they lose their reputation, and people who have spent years building up successful track records and resumes CARE about protecting their reputation.   

If some random guy with no history can't deliver, he lose nothing except other people's money.  I am old enough to know there are a lot of losers out there who don't have any reputation and they could care less about protecting what they don't have once they already got your money, and they would love to get your money, and Kickstarter is just another way for them to pitch empty promises and swindle money.    Those are the people to whom you do NOT want to give your money.

[Darth Mandarb]

I cannot (and will not) get into a debate as far as, "it's my money I'll spend it how I want" because, yeah duh, obviously.

But the ENTIRE point of Kickstarter is to provide unknown creatives the outlet to BE KNOWN.  To develop a reputation without selling their souls to a publisher.  KS is very clear in their guidelines and expressly state, "On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it."  While it's not an "investment" in the strictest sense of the word it is in the sense that you're taking a [potential] risk in backing (giving your money to) somebody who might not have a reputation in the games industry.  How else do you get a reputation in the games industry (or any industry) except by making a game!!1!

Sure there are some scumbags that abuse the system and just take the money and run.  The world is full of dishonest people like that.  Why would KS be any different or any less a victim to these types of scammers?

I don't look at it as just another outlet of the games industry (or just another publisher). I look at it as a place to find "passion" projects that I'd like to see come to fruition.  If somebody (a fellow creative) is working on something that peaks my interest I throw some coin their way.

That, to me, is what KS is all about.

[Blackthorne]

There's different levels of track records, as well.  It really all depends on the goal amount, what they present in the pitch, and how the creators present themselves.  There's room for Kickstarter's of all sizes - but there have been some with outrageous goals, and weak initial pitches - ie.  Shaker: An Old School RPG (Which started out as just "Old School RPG by Tom Hall and Brenda Bathwaite") or David Crane's Jungle Adventure.  Established names, yes - weak pitches.

On a personal level, I like Hero-U's pitch and presentation - and I look forward to seeing how their Kickstarter progresses.  I am a backer.

Bt

[ktchong]

There's room for Kickstarter's of all sizes - but there have been some with outrageous goals, and weak initial pitches - ie.  Shaker: An Old School RPG (Which started out as just "Old School RPG by Tom Hall and Brenda Bathwaite") or David Crane's Jungle Adventure.  Established names, yes - weak pitches.

I had never even heard of Tom Hall and Brenda Bathwaite before their Kickstarter.  I was put off by them claiming credit for Ultima, the Bard's Tale, the Sims, and a few other games that I knew had nothing to do with them.  I was familiar with Origin System and Interplay, and I did not know of Tom Hall or Brenda Bathwaite. (I googled them and found out they worked Sir-Tech, which was a competing company.)  That gave me the impression that they padded their rasumes/track records with games that were not theirs, and that dishonesty put me off. 

[Kweepa]

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,891/
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,6264/
I don't think they need to pad their resumes. You may not have heard of them but they've been making great games for 20-30 years.

[Snarky]

I cannot (and will not) get into a debate as far as, "it's my money I'll spend it how I want" because, yeah duh, obviously.

But the ENTIRE point of Kickstarter is to provide unknown creatives the outlet to BE KNOWN.  To develop a reputation without selling their souls to a publisher.  KS is very clear in their guidelines and expressly state, "On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it."  While it's not an "investment" in the strictest sense of the word it is in the sense that you're taking a [potential] risk in backing (giving your money to) somebody who might not have a reputation in the games industry.  How else do you get a reputation in the games industry (or any industry) except by making a game!!1!

It shouldn't be necessary to point this out on the AGS Forums, but there are ways to make games, build a track record and a reputation without funding. I'm perfectly happy with relative unknowns launching campaigns, and I agree that that's more in the spirit of KS than professionals using it as a no-risk way to raise millions of dollars. But I do think anyone who seriously expects others to pay them for prospective work should be able to point to something they've done that gives an idea of what they can (or that they can) deliver.

The same goes for films, music, comics, etc. If you are talented, keen, and serious about it, you should already have stuff you can show. If it's your first time out, you have no idea in advance of whether you're any good at it, and it's unfair to ask strangers to fund you finding out.

[Blackthorne]

You should have seen ktchong go off about Tom Hall and Brenda Bathewaite's pedigree in an other forums I saw.  I seriously think a vein is going to pop in his forehead.

Yeah - the two game creators have a past.  With some great games they have worked on!  No doubt - just, the pitch sucked.  It was vague.  I mean, it'd be the same as if some dude who worked on "Rygar" said "Old School 2D Platformer!"  $1,000,000 budget! 

I do like to try to find smaller, more interesting projects to fund on Kickstarter.  A few months ago, I pledged to "Super Retro Squad" by Exploding Rabbit.  What did they do?  Just a free game called "Super Mario Crossover" which was a nostalgic fun mashup of some NES games.  No other track record than that; Super Retro Squad is much like that, only with Intellectual Property and Characters they own.  They had a modest goal - I think it was like $10,000 and they smashed it, raising $50,000+.


Bt

[ktchong]

You should have seen ktchong go off about Tom Hall and Brenda Bathewaite's pedigree in an other forums I saw.  I seriously think a vein is going to pop in his forehead.

I went off on Brenda Bathewaite and Tom Hall because   their Kickstarter was a dishonest and misleading money grab.  Their Kickstarter claimed credit for games in which they did NOT have major contributions, i.e., Ultima, the Bard's Tale, the Sims.  They were padding their resumes with projects with which they had nothing or little to do. 


Brenda Bathwaite and Tom Hall had worked on many games, but they had headed only one RPG each, i.e., two RPG together, Wizardry 8 and Anachronox.  I know they were good games, (although I did not enjoyed Anachronox,) but they were not bestsellers.  Few people are familiar with them.  Very few people had played them.  I personally do not think those two titles were not enough for them to ask for $1 million to make another RPG.  I was proven right because their Kickstarter had failed to raise even half of that amount.  (Their Kickstarter is dead.) 

They may have made a lot of games, but not RPG.  "Brenda Bathwaite" and "Tom Hall" are not brand names in the RPG communities (like "Richard Garriott", "Brian Fargo", "Feargus Urquhart", "Jordan Weisman", "Casey Hudson", "BioWare", "Black Isle/Troika/Obsidian" are,)  and they were asking RPG fans  for a lot of money.  That was their big mistake.

[Blackthorne]

Hey, I think the campaign was shoddy, too.  I just thought you were going to burst a blood vessel, man! 

You know, lesson learned here - be more honest about what you've done, don't over-hype yourselves, and be more modest in a budget.


Bt

[ktchong]

If Brenda Bathwaite and Tom Hall plan to do another Kickstarter:

They should NOT list Ultima, the Bard's Tale, the Sims or any other projects in which they had very little contributions or did not have a leadership role.

They need to mock up a sample gameplay video, which should not be difficult to do because they have a company of programmers.

[ktchong]

I personally would not give any money to the designers of Wizardry 8 and Anachronox, because I have never played one and did not enjoy the other.  However, I would give a bit to people who have worked on Jagged Alliance, a series I enjoyed.  It would have been more credible for Brenda Bathwaite to claim credit for Jagged Alliance I and II because she worked for Sir-Tech at the time.  But I would not give any money who I felt was dishonest by claiming credits for games in which they did not have a leadership role; I know neither worked for Origin System or Interplay at the time, and there was no way they could have any major capacity in those companies.  Again, it actually hurt them to credit Ultima, Bard's Tale, the Sims and other games in their Kickstarter, because it set off a red flag in people's heads, "wait...  Brenda Bathwaite and Tom Hall did not work for Origin System or Interplay."

[Darth Mandarb]

They should NOT list Ultima, the Bard's Tale, the Sims or any other projects in which they had very little contributions or did not have a leadership role.

Does the assistant to the key grip (a tiny near insignificant role) that worked on Star Wars not have the right to claim he worked on Star Wars?  Of course he does because he, you know, worked on Star Wars.  Sure he didn't design the X-Wing or coach David Prowse how to swing a lightsaber but he was still involved.  So as to these game developers (which you seem to strongly dislike); even if all they did was consult on one tiny aspect of the game they can say they were involved (and put it on their resume).  Even if the only part they worked on didn't make it into the final game they still worked on the game.

This is just how it is (and should be).

And I think maybe you're forgetting one very important fact (in regards to people pimping themselves on Kickstarter)... I'm not sure of the exact statistic here but I'd wager that, of all the people viewing that Kickstarter campaign, 99.9% had never heard of either Bathwaite or Hall.  And even that tiny fraction of people who had heard of them, 99.9% would have had NO IDEA that they didn't actually work for COMPANY X in 1992.

It shouldn't be necessary to point this out on the AGS Forums, but there are ways to make games, build a track record and a reputation without funding. I'm perfectly happy with relative unknowns launching campaigns, and I agree that that's more in the spirit of KS than professionals using it as a no-risk way to raise millions of dollars. But I do think anyone who seriously expects others to pay them for prospective work should be able to point to something they've done that gives an idea of what they can (or that they can) deliver.

Oh for sure there are many other ways to make a game than by starting a money-grab on Kickstarter!  I didn't mean to imply otherwise (though I can see how what I wrote might have). 

I think it's all "situational" though.

In 2004 when I made my first (only) game I was working freelance and making just enough money to stay afloat.  The net result was I had loads of free-time and I filled the hours by working on the game.  Now, 8 years later, I'm working 3 jobs, have a house/mortgage, a girlfriend and [somewhat] of a social life.  I am working on a game (shhh!!) but I'm lucky, at this point, if I can put in 2 hours a week on it!  So if I could launch a kickstarter and get backed 50k I could ditch those other jobs and focus on the game.  While this is what I'd really love to do, the actual practicality of it is ... well ... it's just not gonna happen! 

Oh but what a dream!!  A dream that, realistically, can now actually happen with something like Kickstarter!