Shiny colouring - Main Character Revisited.

[ThreeOhFour]

Howdy all.

A bit underwhelmed with working on gamey type things today so I though I'd have a go at drawing a coolish kinda sprite - with high contrast and fairly high saturation values, and few colours.



This be the result of the excercise, however I feel I may have done it badly. I got the black outline idea from a set of sprites I remember Krysis posting ages ago, I was impressed by the technique and thought I'd give it a shot. Your help to make this look better would be appreciated. I realise I basically wasted a colour by only using a few pixels worth of it, but I think the nice warm colour stands out well against all the cools.

Cheers!

EDIT:

I guess finding out that I had a day off tomorrow made me decide I could waste more time on this.... Kinda did a scene, using 14 colours.



I did it in paint, and it's been a while since I've done anything in paint so it's probably a bit rougher than I'd normally go with, but I am pretty happy with it.

[Moresco]

Referring to your scene, it's weird but I like it.  The sprites rock, and the high contrast works for me as well.  Honestly I can't see anything to dislike or to suggest where to improve upon it, maybe somebody else will.  *high five*

[ThreeOhFour]

Hooray! *High five*

[mouthuvmine]

Please let me play this scene...Pleeeease.

[Ali]

I think the background looks terrific, great use of areas of flat colour. I also love the sprite, but I think he's a little off-balance to the left. Extending his left (our right) shoulder further to the right would help stop him look like he's leaning.

[Ghost]

It's a very great sprite, but easily beaten by the background, which is gorgeous. I love it- retro and still very professional. I would compare it to Super Jazz Man in terms of sheer old-fashioned quality.
Did you actually do the AA on the ship and rocks by hand?

[Tuomas]

What really bugs me is the anti-aliasing on the black outlines of the background. You've got unwanted blur ewerywhere while not on the characters. I suggest you take some time, and even up the outlines. Had to be said...

[ThreeOhFour]

Thanks for the point Ali - I'll fix that (hopefully) .

Tuomas - the blur is wanted blur. I did this all as pixel art, so I went in and added the anti aliasing myself. I realise that many of the characters do not have it currently, because it is rather hard to antialias moving objects by hand, but where possible I will antialias the character outlines as well. I respect that this is your opinion, but I feel that the thicker, smoother lines look better than a thin, jaggedy line.

Cheers .

EDIT: Silly me missed Ghost's post. Yeah - the anti alias was done by hand so as to stick within my 14 colour pallette. Like I said, it's been ages since I've done anything in paint, so it has been rather fun getting back into it. Thankyou for your nice comments - I feel that the Super Jazz Man comment may be going too far though (if only because I have so much respect for Big Brother's work).

Hmmm. I wasn't going to post any more pictures, but I've changed my mind...

Having the day off yesterday got me all excited about this project, and I started drawing some more. I'm currently at 6 backgrounds (6 backgrounds in a day and a half!) and I think I might be able to turn this into a short game just for fun. These new scenes all use the same pallette and are done in paint - I'm proud of them, even if not all of them are finished. Your thoughts would be appreciated .

[Moresco]

Wow I love the girl, the new vehicle, and the tree.  Of course the scenes seem rather empty but I know you're just having fun.  If you made it a short game, I would definitely want to play it.  As for each scene, I think they all need more going on, at least for a game they might.  But hey I really don't know what your vision is for such a game, and maybe I'm wrong, they just seem a bit vacant.   Awesome though, neat style.

[ThreeOhFour]

Thankyou for the comment - I've been thinking the same thing myself, so I'll see about filling them up some more.

Cheers

[TheJBurger]

I really like the palette you've got going here, and yep, it does remind me of Super Jazz Man.

The characters look good, but to me they seem to have some posture/balance issues.

For the backgrounds, two things:
1) Some of the anti-aliasing (particularly on the tree branches and the 45 degree tower slant) seems unnecessary. They just seem to blur the objects out of focus instead of make a smooth curve.
2) I don't know exactly what kind of mood you're going for, but you could consider adding a light backdrop behind all the scenes to increase the sense of depth, but it's all up to you really.

[ThreeOhFour]

Thanks for the comments .

The characters do have posture issues of course - I plan on looking at them once I've got the backgrounds done. I hopefully should be able to sort them out without a problem.

With regards to making a backdrop... I would love to do it, but feel I couldn't show depth very well without expanding the palette, and I don't particularly want to do that. I guess I'll give it a shot - I just hope I can make the things in the distance look far enough away.

Cheers!

EDIT: Okay dokay - I've had a shot at putting a bit of a backdrop on this one, without expanding the colours. I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.



Also... could someone perhaps give me an example of how to do AA? I seem to be either using too much or too little.

Cheers!

[TheJBurger]

I like it!

Here's a tutorial on pixel art anti-aliasing: http://www.gas13.ru/v3/tutorials/handmade_antialiasing.php

[ThreeOhFour]

Oooh, thanks for the tutorial link, JB.

It seems I still have very, very much to learn.

[Uhfgood]

the images are great, my only gripe would probably put everyone at odds with me and that's the colors look sickly.  I realize this is a style choice, but the sickly greens and off color purples just put me off. 

Other people probably have seen graphics that use a color palette like that, but I have not, and as such, cannot think of it nostalgically.

Not that my opinion matters.

[ThreeOhFour]

Uhfgood - of course your opinion matters. I think the point here is that I am new to using limited palettes, and therefore I may have chosen some weirdo colours. I'll stick with this one for now, but hopefully I'll get better in future and you won't have to look at teletubby colours.



(Ps - I don't have nostalgias about green and purple games either )

I had a go at reworking the anti aliasing on this one using the Gas13 tutorial tips... hopefully it is much improved. I have many others to attend to now - if you see anything you think should change, please tell me.



Cheers.

Again.

[Uhfgood]

The pictures still rock though :-)

[Evil]

I really love it. There are a lot of things that bug me about it though. The perspective of the steps, the height of the building in comparison to the characters, shape of the islands. All minor things, but that damn square inside a circle sun is driving me mad.

I also agree that the tree could be a little fuller.

[Andail]

Your pictures are good because the colour schemes and the technique are well executed, but you could improve them tons by adding details. Pixel art benefits so much from details. Break up large areas with shades and cracks and just random hues. Add funny looking clouds to the sky, colourful flowers on the ground, textures to buildings, etc etc.
Add some sort of generic backdrop to the landscape, like washed out mountains with vague silhouettes.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

You've picked up on the style quite quickly, Ben, and it looks good!  One thing I would say is that the sprites don't match the more lively, cartoony backgrounds, and that is because they aren't drawn in a 'cartoony' way, ie exaggerated features or proportions, and all of their poses are rather static.  This is purely a design choice, but it's something you might want to think about.  Meanwhile, I did an edit to adjust the pose of one of the characters to something a bit more natural.

1.  Tilted torso to the left slightly to bring in the right arm more.
2.  Brought left leg in and raised it a pixel to give the illusion of depth.
3.  Reshaded sprite with a more top-down approach that allows certain areas to fall into shadow (like the area beneath the torso).
4.  Added a few random details.





Hopefully this will help you get a better handle on poses at least.  Keep up the good work!

[ThreeOhFour]

Uhfgood: Thankyou, sir .

Evil: Thankyou for the comments - I hadn't noticed the square inside the sun! Must be blind...

Andail: I've tried to add some more little details, but I don't want to spend too much time on any of the backgrounds - this is meant to be a quick little diversion, not a month long project. Textures are, as ever, completely beyond me at this point, but hopefully I've helped to fill the backgrounds up a bit with some simple touches as you suggested. Your advice is, as usual, very helpful.




ProgZmax: Yes, I suck at the whole "cartoony body" thing . Yes, I tried to go further with these little graphics, but it seems I have trouble seeing outside the square. I am sure I'll get it with time. Thankyou for your nice edit of the trooper's pose and shading - some very interesting changes you've made. Hopefully I can get a grip on the whole proper pose this and also perhaps banish my pillow shading once and for all?

I'm really rather excited about this little project - I've been feeling a bit in the doldrums with regards to game design lately, and this quick little project is really getting me re-inspired. Paolo - if you're reading this, sorry about my quick digression into cartoon land, but I will be back on task for the next big one and more motivated as a result of this little endeavour.

Thankyou all very much - your comments not only help me improve but also keep me inspired, and I couldn't ask for anything more from anyone.

EDIT:

Update with guis. Do these look functional enough to yourselves?

[The Ivy]

I just have to say that you're rocking these backgrounds. I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but I think your design has integrated the characters, backgrounds, and GUIs perfectly. I'm also really impressed with that tree background. Good to see an original style. Keep up the good work!

[ThreeOhFour]

Thanks Ivy!

I've got most of the graphics done now - the game should be ready early next week .

(Depending on how I go with some of these scripting roadblocks )

Oh, and glad you like the tree background. I spent a fair while reshading the damn thing - since when was drawing big trees a good idea?

[Snarky]

Yeah, love those backgrounds, and especially those characters! It pushes so many of the right buttons for me. I'm a total sucker for that baroque "ancient civilization" fantasy/SF-style, especially when it includes a pinch of the absurd.

I have to mention that tree. The way it sweeps from root to branch is just wonderful. It could have been just a straightforward trunk with two branches, but instead there's that energetic arc. Very nice!

Can't say I'm feeling the same way about the GUI, I'm afraid. The main one is alright, I guess (though I personally think putting save/load/quit as top-level options is awkward), but I don't really get the inventory one. If it's accessed by clicking on the suitcase (which is visually out of place, by the way), why is it so far away from where my mouse cursor just was? And it's so small, it's gonna be a pain to hit it (check out Fitts' Law).

And even after fifteen years of playing Sierra games, I still can't tell at a glance what those inventory-specific cursor modes do. Check mark? Is that like OK?

I'd argue that the classic Sierra UI is not particularly well designed. For veteran players, the popup cursor mode menu is pretty redundant, and anything to do with the inventory is a total pain. Replace the popup actions menu with a popup inventory, and use the same cursor modes for the inventory as for the rest of the game, with the came right-click to cycle through them method. ("Talk to mushroom" may not be a particularly useful action, but you can leave most interactions as default "that doesn't work" statements.) Then you might have yourself a workable user interface.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

You clearly have found a style that works for you and looks visually pleasing at the same time.  What I would recommend is to apply some kind of detail to the backdrop, be it cloud lines or a very simple gradient (even three shades would do wonders).  I agree with Snarky about the design aspect of the gui, though I think stylistically it's very simple and effective.  Have you considered using a verbcoin interface?  Something that looks like a computer datapad or wrist computer might be very effective.  I don't mind the save/load options on the same field, but it might be cool to make the gui more computerized with a single gui that has drop-down fields for saving, inventory and the like. 

Here's a quick verbcoin example using scaled versions of your icons.  It doesn't make very efficient use of space but the four primary icons orbit an 'options' icon you can use just for inventory or to bring up a custom save/load/quit dialog.



You're doing quite well with this!

[ThreeOhFour]

Snarky - Glad you like the art style/setting. I'd be lying if I said I didn't draw some inspiration from Dresden Codak when drawing this sort of thing. If you haven't already, I suggest reading through the archives - it has an art style I absolutely adore.

GUI functionality is not something I've dwelled too long upon. I've never done a verbcoin - I just drew these up following the original AGS template style.

ProgZ - I plan to get some clouds in there. However, I think this is going to mean I have to add another colour to my palette. Not sure exactly which colour, but I shall have a play around with it and you'll hopefully see results very soon.

I like the idea of a verbcoin - I am thinking something along the lines of Reactor 09 with a few changes. I put the options in the middle of the verbcoin, and think perhaps a top down menu for the inventory? I'd like to really have it so there is no "Walk To" cursor... or have that as the standard, and then a verbcoin when I right click - this is also how I'd use inventory items.



Is putting the options in the middle of the coin a silly idea? Is an inventory at the top a silly idea? Is my verbcoin too big, too small or the wrong style art wise? Can you understand the icons instantly? Being my first one, I'm not overly sure about any of these things, so I'd love your thoughts.

Thanks!

Ben

EDIT: Added inventory window just for comparison's sake. I won't need the arrows at this size, because the player won't have that many items at one time, so I have replaced them with little screws.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Since verbcoins usually pop up centered over the cursor you want the middle icon (if there is one) to be the most commonly used, which is why I suggested an inventory toggle.  I don't think many people will have a problem with the way you've set it up, though.  One option is just to leave the center area empty so holding the button and releasing does nothing (or just walk).  Interestingly enough, most verbcoins don't even deal with inventory or options, they usually rely on function keys or icons on the screen for those (doesn't mean it's not a good idea!).  I'm a big fan of clever guis so don't be afraid to experiment a bit.

[Darth Mandarb]

Absolutely loving these images!  So simplistic, yet so full at the same time ... really good job.

As has been said the sky portions feel devoid of anything.

I did a quick paint-over (and forgive the sloppiness - it was done very quickly!)


- updated the sun (removed the black outline and made it more round)
- added some "distance" to the floating island in the background
- added some clouds and sky coloring
- removed the outlining anti-aliasing (just for easier editing ... but you can of course put it back in!)

This was done quickly ... just to give some ideas and I'm sure when/if you spend some time doing it yourself it'd look even better!  However if you like the stark sky areas by all means keep 'em!  I'd play this game either way

Hope it helps.

Edit - and I really LOVE the GUIs ... especially your latest one!

[ThreeOhFour]

ProgZmax - Thankyou for the advice. I'm not sure where to go from here - I think what I might do is add the verbcoin in how it is and see how it works while playing. If I find the options in the middle to be annoying or silly I'll adjust it to go up to the top with the inventory. I have to say, this has been (for me) one of the most educational threads I've started in the critic's lounge... you guys have been great.

Darth - Last night I did up some clouds for the backgrounds, adding 2 new colours to the palette, but I was not happy with them at all. The style, the colour, the shape, the position - it all felt wrong, and I was a bit disappointed with them. Needless to say this morning when I checked this thread and saw your example my jaw dropped - *that* is the style it needs, I thought straight away - those clouds are 100 times better than my feeble effort last night!

I've grabbed your two colours to replace mine, gone crazy on your style clouds, taken the outline away from the sun and also removed the outline from the distant island to give a better sense of distance.



I have to say how much happier I am with this version - I did hope to release this game on Sunday, and with all the changes and work left to do I may not get this done - who cares? An extra few days for a more polished product is, I feel, worth it.

Thankyou all very much for your time so far, and if you have more comments please don't hesitate to add them - I appreciate them all so much!

[Snarky]

That looks great, Ben!

Only point of criticism is the antialiasing on the distant island against the cloud. The color doesn't seem right, and is too close to the color of the sky. It makes it seem as if the cloud outline follow the outline of the island precisely, which is a very unfortunate effect.

[ThreeOhFour]

Thanks Snarky,

In that case I'll probably skip the antialiasing on the "island" - I see the effect you're talking about, and it should look fine without.

I'm also interested to hear your thoughts on the funcionality of the GUI I have in mind...

Cheers

[Darth Mandarb]

I'm so in love with this style that I got inspired to try something else!

First though ... the new clouds you put in look good!  However the effect is somewhat lost as they appear to be stacked on top of each other rather than giving a feeling of horizon/distance (if you know what I mean?).  It doesn't feel like they're getting farther away.

Anyway ... here is the new thing I was inspired to try and I think it might fit more with the style of the image:



It does add a few extra colors so I'm not sure you want to use something like this but I think it looks neat.

As for the GUIs ... I like the verb coin you created and I LOVE the inventory slider GUI.  The problem I see with "overlay" GUIs is that they look good when there's a solid color behind it but if you have backgrounds where that's not the case the GUIs can easily get lost and/or muddled in the background.

I usually like to add some kind of "outline" around overlay GUIs.  Something like this ...


(I also flipped it and put it on the bottom to show it overlapping the scenery to illustrate the point!)

I'm guessing that would be a GUI that pops up when you move your mouse to the bottom/top of the screen right?

[ThreeOhFour]

Darth - Thankyou for your further edits. I would just like to point out that my head hit the desk because I realise I am going to have to go back and do the clouds in the new style you showed. That's awesome! I was worried my clouds were overly DOTT and the game would look bland because of it. Sigh. Thankyou, sir.

About the GUI - the white outline really does look very nice! I think I'd like to give this a shot too. You are correct about the gui popping up by the way.

The whole idea of the GUI was that the slider moved the inventory, but as soon as I drew it I realised I wouldn't need it because there were more slots that the player would get items. It would be a nice thing to try in a game, but I am probably the worst scripter that has ever lived, so that'd probably be a job to give to someone else . I had fun with the concept of it though .

I also wish to get some comments on the tower after Andail's texture comment. I pixelled in some detail on it - does it look good, and does it match the style?



Cheers, again.

(You're probably sick of seeing the same backgrounds over again but if I show you anymore you won't see any new ones when you play the game!)

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Dig the texture work on the tower, the gradient is very stylish.  I should probably not point out where the sun is in relation to your tower, since you seem to be a perfectionist on par with myself, but at that angle I wouldn't imagine you'd see much light on the side facing us (it would be more in shadow) unless there is another sun somewhere, but these are things that no one who plays the game and finds the story engaging will care about, trust me!

As for the clouds, I really like darth's softer clouds with your image, since they compliment your design without distracting my interest from the foreground.  As far as details go, once you go the route of everything needing detail you're just going to get bogged down, so I would say the simpler style will suit these backgrounds well.  I don't really like the white transparent backdrop darth added to the gui though, it just clouds up a really nice background and in no way 'helps' the gui imo.  If you want it to pop up, one clean way to do it would be to have an inventory icon in a corner of the screen that when clicked (or mouse-overed) brings your inventory gui down so it isn't always in the way.  Games like the new Sam and Max episodes do this and it works rather well.

[ThreeOhFour]

Thanks, ProgZ, glad you like the texture work. The sun is something I have thought about and dismissed, simply for the reason that putting completely accurate lighting in would probably take me twice as long. I honestly don't feel that the gameplay time would warrant spending this long on the backgrounds. Hopefully people will find the story engaging - I am fairly satisfied that it will suit a short game nicely.

I agree about Darth's clouds - they are fantastic. With regards to the gui, I'll have to check out the new Sam & Max eps - I have a demo somewhere so I'll have to see how they did it.

What if I just used a plain white outline like in the example? I'm enjoying experimenting with all these things - and amazed by how much I've learnt this week.



I have loads of stuff to do - I want to repair my currently awful walkcycles, fix some character poses, redo hotspots, Darth's clouds.... Let's just say expect to see more from me soon, asking for more help or advice .

Cheers!

[Darth Mandarb]

Glad you like the clouds ...

I was going to suggest the 1-pixel white border around the GUI just like you did!  I was envisioning the GUI being not visible at all until you move the mouse to the top of the screen.  Though ProgZ's suggestion of the inventory icon is good too!  I just prefer nothing on the screen (but the cursor) until you need it.  This is, of course, just personal preference.

I just really think something is needed to "pop" the GUI away from the BG in some way.  Again, just personal preference.

As for second guessing (going back to update) your backgrounds ... I'd suggest not spending too much time on that!  I have that same curse where, as I progress I learn new techniques, I then want to go back and touch-up the older BGs with the new techniques.  It's the hardest part of BG design for me!

Another thing I would suggest (unless you really just want to get this done) would be totally bringing these BGs to life by small (and subtle) animations.  Something like this:



I spent VERY little time on this ... just wanted to show something.  I think it would be really cool to animate the clouds in paralax too (though this would be challenging to get it to repeat properly!).

The newer BG is nice too!  Few shading issues as ProgZ mentioned, but nothing I couldn't look easily past while playing the game.  The balcony looks a little odd ... does it go behind the wall?



I tweaked the shading a bit and the angle of the platform (I'm not even sure that's what you meant it to be but I didn't see any other space in the image that could be a walkable area!)

Anyway ... I want to play this game

[ThreeOhFour]

Darth,

Again, thanks for the edits! The shading looks good - I'll have to give that a shot and I love the little balloon animation...

With regards to how the tower works, the screen is facing the face edge of the building so the door will be like this:


As soon as I read "Animate the clouds" I had ridiculously wild fantasies of making the clouds characters with movement paths, built so they repeat and loop and move in parallax.... but I think I'll leave it for now. If I do things like that, this game will take me forever! It was meant to be a short one week break from the other big project, and it will probably take a bit longer than a week just to get it done how it is, so I don't won't to get any more ambitious than I have gotten.

For those interested, I've been working on my walkcycle animations (Logged on here for a quick break). I looked at mine, hated it, took one look at one of Lemmy and Binky's and, after several minutes of going "Stupid, stupid, stupid, you have no idea how a person looks when they walk!!!!" got to work on fix-o-fix.

It *will* be my best sideways walkcycle to date, I know it!

Thanks for the edits, again.

EDIT: Ok, now for that walkcycle I mentioned earlier...


2x

Any changes you can recommend (Please, for my sake, don't make them too big )

[Andail]

Bounce!

[ThreeOhFour]

Haha, ok.

I'm cautious of exagerrating it too much though and thereby making her look like she's hopping...

Thanks Andail.

PS: That was a quick response!

[vict0r]

Excellent style!
The only thing I would add is a slight upanddown motion on the characters head.

[Cluey]

Excellent style!
The only thing I would add is a slight upanddown motion on the characters head.

What he said, it's amazing how much character just bobbing the head one pixel either way can add.

I also love your backgrounds, the clouds look amazing with them and I hope you can incorporate them well. Basically it's because the perspective suggests there'd be some sort of horizon visible, but when you add the clouds it suggests something really high up.

[tube]

Beautiful pixeling. The animation's fine except for the lack of vertical movement. The chest looks a bit wonky though, like the breast was sinking straight back into her chest instead of just turning slightly towards the viewer. That much movement makes me excpect that I'd see part of her other breast come to view when the shoulder is furthest back and the other side goes forward.

[Snarky]

Excellent style!
The only thing I would add is a slight upanddown motion on the characters head.

What he said, it's amazing how much character just bobbing the head one pixel either way can add.

Actually, the entire body should bob up and down, from the hip up. It all has to do with the bend and angle of the legs.

[Nikolas]

The only thing I would add is an extra day in the week, or a few extra hours in the day, so that Ben can finish this game FASTER!

woah!

some great stuff and the coherency between BGs and characters is brilliant! Brilliant!

On the walkcycle, I can't comment I'll just mention that I like that she moves her body slightly left and right so the lightning slightly changes, which looks great!

[ThreeOhFour]

vict0r - Yes, up downs is the next thing to add. Thankyou for kind words .

Cluey - Again thankyou for kind words. We shall see how I go with clouds, hey?

tube - The wonky chest is something I will look at in a little while (once I've got some other stuff out of the way )

Snarky - I agree. I'll work on this.

Nikolas - Yes, yes, more hours . I am pleased to have so many nice comments... I was going to make this a one week game only but I started on Sunday, and today is Saturday - meaning a week is gone, and there are a number of things I have added and I wish to add, so... it could take a little longer. Thankyou for your nice comments - makes me smile and keeps me going!

I had a play around last night to see about some background animation as Darth suggested - I think I could do with another frame because of a jerky spot, but hopefully overall it looks nice...

[TheJBurger]

I think it looks fantabulous. Definitely add another frame unless there is some kind of momentum/gravity reason that I don't know about causing it to slow down.

[The Suitor]

The whole floating Island thing with the windmill reminds me of the Feel Good Inc.   Gorillaz video. I like it.

[ThreeOhFour]

I think it looks fantabulous. Definitely add another frame unless there is some kind of momentum/gravity reason that I don't know about causing it to slow down.

Holy poor animation excusing plot device Batman!

I had not considered the Gorrilaz video clip, but I did like that island floating along quite a bit... if that's what it reminds you of, I'm pretty happy with that .

[nihilyst]

Depending on where the sun stands, the shadows are strangely placed. Other than that, I really like the overall simple style and the colours.

[ThreeOhFour]

nihilyst - Yes, the shadows and highlights show a complete disregard of the position of the sun. I'm choosing to ignore it because I'd like to move on from backgrounds or else the game will never get finished . Thankyou for your nice comment.

I have added some up & down to the walkcycle, as well as produced, for your criticising pleasure, a new one.




2x

Thoughts?

[Darth Mandarb]

LOVE that windmill ... seriously that's EXACTLY what I was talking about!  It just gives the image soooooo much life!!  And I love the style you have on the trees ... so simple and yet elegant, great job!

I love the new walk-cycles too!  Very smooth and fluid animation!

The only concern I have with the walk-cycle is, judging from the front view ... she's wearing a cape.

In the side view I thought it was just a flap type thing in the back.  What I would suggest is that each frame where you can see the "white" space between the legs/arms and the cape you fill it up with the dark color of the inside of the cape!

Aside from that I cannot WAIT to play this game!

[Evil]

Background animation is great, but I'm not a fan of the dark lines on the island. Doesn't look very clean. Walking animations look good too. Reminds me of a pastel Gobliiins.

[ThreeOhFour]

You mean the dark purple ones on the windmill island?

[Evil]

No, the lines on the island in the forground. Tree looks awesome though.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Please don't take this the wrong way, Ben, but when I saw the front view of your character I was sure it was male!  I mean the pose, the build, the face all look more masculine than feminine to me, and it wasn't until I saw the side view that I realized my mistake.

1.  The body is rather long and disproportionate for a woman (torso should taper down and then come to wider hips).

2.  Breast level is really high, though it looks better in the side view.

3.  Face doesn't evoke any femininity to me at all.


Now I realize she's an alien so the game might be about her looking not like a human female, but just in case it's not I made an edit that emphasizes a more feminine shape and look.  You can use them as a guide or ignore them as you like, but it's something you might consider.





Again, this isn't picking on you, but I know if someone thought a character I drew was male when I meant it to be female I would want to know.

Very nice walking animations, by the way!

[ThreeOhFour]

Ah ProgZ, not taken the wrong way, I assure you.

She's not meant to look manly or boyish, but neither did I mean for her to be some ultra curvy babe - I really just wanted to sprite up a young woman.

If you mistook her for a male, though, it probably means I'll have to do an edit. Thanks for your edits - I see exactly what you mean about the hips and breast level - I'll definitely get onto this.

After I sort out this next walking animation!

Cheers again,

Ben

EDIT: gah, while I'm here.

I hate not being able to do diagonal walkcycles. So I have decided it is time to learn.

Apparently, however, I suck.



This is how far I've gotten, and I hate it. For some reason, I *can't* seem to be able to draw a foot moving diagonally without having it go all perspectived out on me. It's really, really annoying me - I look at the front cycle, and it's not over done, nor is the side one, but this cycle looks like I've got the camera on a nearly isometric view and it is bugging the pants outta me. If anyone has a tutorial link, reference images, anything, I'd be grateful x100. I'd really love to get the 'camera' on her centrally, not this top down rubbish.

Cheers

[radiowaves]

While the sprites are cool and quite well-drawn, I must say you should put just a bit more effort to the backgrounds. And by that, i don't mean detail or anything, just shadows should be overlooked.

In almost each picture you have put sun in the sky, so I take it as a main light source, then why not follow it? On some of the pictures things don't have shadows on the opposite sides of the light or are just lighted from the wrong side. Oh, and lose that pillow shade on the tree in first pic, light is clearly coming from right...

Other than that, it looks really neat and you have cool style. I will definately be waiting for this game. Keep up the good work!

[Snarky]

While I greatly respect ProgZmax's spriting skills, I think some times that the edits he suggests in the Critics Lounge now and then lose whatever is unique or distinctive with the original work and artistic style. This, to me, would be an example of that, and while some tweaks to the anatomy in your front view might be recommended (bringing the breasts down, mainly), I would very much regret if you redesigned the character along the lines of his concept.

A skinny character is going to look androgynous, and I think what you have looks very much like some kind of vagabond adventurer. You instantly see that, even if it might take another second to realize that she's female. If that's what you were going for, before you change it you have to ask yourself: what's more important to the story and to the identity of this character: her sex, or what she does? If the latter, be very careful in what you change. ProgZ's version communicates something very different, maybe an officer in some amazon war band or something.

I think there is one problem with your walk cycles: stretchy legs. In the side and diagonal cycles, the legs appear to get longer when in front of the character. Instead of bouncing the body by stretching the torso, as you do currently, the hips (including the belt line) should go up and down with the steps. If the hips are fixed in place, the heels can never reach further than a circle where the radius is the distance from the crotch to the ground (when standing straight). So in order to reach the ground (with the feet flat) when the foot is in front, the whole body has to bob down.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I'm not disagreeing with Snarky (thanks for the compliment!) in that I tend to draw in 'my style' (whatever that is) when I help people, but the point of my edit wasn't to have him use the edit directly but to use it as an example for approaching a more feminine form and look. 

  Since he explained he definitely wanted her to look feminine I don't think the androgynous argument holds, but ultimately it's up to Ben what direction he chooses to take his art, and I support him either way!

[ThreeOhFour]

Finally got around to having a go at this.

Keeping in mind your comments, and following shading closer to that in the edit of the trooper guy, I've tried to do an edit.



I feel her forehead shape was creating some of the masculinity problems. I also feel that in my original version, the side view makes her look like Shrek (ugly in a cute way). I now feel she may look like she has chin stubble or a beard. I've tried to keep her body fairly close to the original, with only a few changes to the breasts.

Please help me out with your thoughts - I am concious that this may not be an improvement, but rather a step in the wrong direction.

(Ps - yes, I know the side view has no arms. I find it easier for animation purposes.)

Cheers

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

This is a quick edit but maybe you'll see where I'm going here.

1.  Lightened face skin tones to make more detail visible and rounded face for a more feminine look.

2.  Arched eyes slightly and merged the eyebrow directly over the eyes.

3.  Widened upper thighs somewhat and gave her a rear in the side view.

4.  Adjusted angle pose from leaning forward too much to a more upright position.

5.  Gave her a crotch.  I've found this to be a very useful (and easy) way to distinguish males and females.  The v-shape in particular (not to be crude) along with darkening it (instead of highlighting it as though it protrudes) helps simulate that there's no package there, if you get me.  The wide upper thighs also help here.





Things that could use improvement:

1.  The angle pose is still too wooden.  Static poses are okay but they really don't 'say' much about a character.  Most people don't naturally stand at attention, so when we view characters in a game we tend to find rigid poses to be awkward.

2.  Breast level is still too high.  Remember that a woman's breasts naturally hang down a bit and then curve up into the armpits.  As they stand now, the breasts are beginning pretty much at armpit level.  Have a look at some nude women in art poses on the net.  Not only is it refreshing, it's also irreplaceable for mapping out female anatomy and getting it right.  Even the great cartoon artists understand proper anatomy so they can bend the rules!

Hopefully this helps!

[ThreeOhFour]

Wow! Fantastic edit, ProgZ. Thanks - I'd best have another shot at her .

Ps, the "hair" is meant to be a sort of leather cap that she's wearing, with chin straps hanging loose... does it look too much like hair?

[Pesty]

I really, really loved the character sprite before all these edits started and now I don't like it as much. I think it doesn't matter that she was androgynous, and if you want people to know she's a girl, use the context in the game, don't change the sprite. I think it was girly enough to work.

Also, I absolutely love everything you've posted in this thread, especially the palette, and will play this game immediately when it is finished.

[ThreeOhFour]

Thanks Pesty.

I like the original version, but I am going to try more edits - I would rather spend a couple of extra hours now trying to adjust it than getting a week down the road from when the game is released and thinking "I could have done this character so much better - it would have only taken me an extra few hours" and regretting it.

If I fail - I can always return to the original.

Pleased to hear that you'll play the game - it's been a little labour of love for me so far .

[mouthuvmine]

I can't stay out of this thread! Everytime I go to the forum home, there's a new post. While I have nothing to add as far as C&C, I felt the need to commend what's going on in here. It's amazing. A good volley of helpful insights matched with frequent updates and progress. I cannot WAIT for this game.

[ThreeOhFour]

I can't stay out either . Seriously, I really do appreciate everyone that has given me advice so far and know that I've learnt loads and loads this past week. I've got at least one more thing I feel is important to bring up when (if) I get this main character sprite how I want it (or give up and return to the original) so keep checking - you might be able to provide some insights on my next questions.

Now, after focusing on scripting the game for a couple of hours to get my mind off pixels, and feeling ready to get working on this edit, I compared this to ProgZ's edits and - feeling that the torso was really holding me back - decided to start from scratch.

Now, I did still use other elements of my previous sprites - I'd say this is about half edit, half completely new. I was confident (stubborn ) that the face on my last version was a good face, but that the shading was holding it back, so I've edited the shading there. I can't honestly see this sprite working with any other eyes - I find them too darn cute! The torso I redid completely, as with the arms - I felt there were too many things wrong for me to try and edit it and that a fresh start would benefit me here. The legs are based much on ProgZmax's last edit - especially around the groin - I feel that the shape of the legs themselves can still do with some editing. Overall, I am quite pleased with this, but if it can be improved, let me know. If, once again, I've not made an improvement over the original, let me know as well.



Your comments, suggestions and edits are, as always, very much appreciated.

EDIT:

Have a look at some nude women in art poses on the net.  Not only is it refreshing...

Forgot to mention. This made me laugh.

EDIT 2:

Just for the sake of having explored some more options, some more versions. Original on left. Only small changes, but at this res one pixel makes all the difference.



I know that it seems like it's taking me forever to get this, and I'm being stubborn about changing how the character looks too drastically... I just feel this look is closer to what is right for her. ProgZmax - I really appreciate the paintovers you've been doing, and they show a number of different styles, all of which I'm interested in - and certainly I've learnt things from them, especially the legs from the last edit. I don't want it to seem like I don't appreciate your edits, I feel I should mention, because I do, I just have an image in my head of how this character should look, and am trying to work towards that. My apologies if it seems I am being overly stubborn here...

Sorry for the lots of text, and thanks for the help once again, all.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

There's nothing wrong with knowing internally how you want a character to look, and I think your last edit looks fine.  The face looks feminine and helps sell the character.

[MrColossal]

hey Ben, I've been following this thread and I just wanted to throw a monkey wrench into the works!

I did not know that the character was supposed to be immediately female. I thought she was an undead creature.



That's the face I see when I look at a majority of these faces. A skull face with long incisors poking down.

Maybe make the line under her mouth the lighter...darker green? or just remove the under the lip shadow and use the midtone green in there.

[ThreeOhFour]

ProgZmax - thanks, I'm confident this character is getting close to perfect now - perfect for my current ability, anyway.

MrColossal - I feel that you haven't really thrown a spanner in the works, but instead pointed out something I would never have seen in the image itself. Very interesting that I never saw that when I drew it. Can I assume that if I go with something like the 4th sprite in the row I'd be pretty safe? I have to say, nice pic, by the way - I like the dots on the hat and the cape.

I'm concious that I shouldn't focus on too many things at once here, but if I don't bring this up now I feel it may get left behind and not be implemented into the game as well as it could/should be.

I've been going through and listing the animations I want to put in the game - whether puzzle related or otherwise - and I'd like some advice on putting more "character" into character animations.

First an example I'm not happy with - fishing boy fiddles with his line and yawns.



The fisher boy's idle animation - with frames that will also be used in a cutscene. I'm aware that the arm needs speeding up, and that the right arm's sleeve needs adjusting.

Now for one I'm happier with (doesn't mean I won't tweak it) - This is the game's narrator opening his book ready to read and taking a deep breath ready to begin reading to us. Didn't put in talk frames because I want to adjust them.



The reason I like this one is because of the deep breath. I feel it adds personality to the character. With the fisher boy, I feel that there is a bit of personality missing.

Does anyone have any tips on adding a bit of personality to a character's animation? I've got quite a few I want to do, some I can think of how to give them personality, and some I cannot (and some I'm dreading trying to draw based on the difficulty of the frames that will show what I want them to).

Cheers

[MashPotato]

Very nice sprites, and I like the bright colours you're using
I did a slight edit (I hope you're not sick of paintovers yet )
  2x
I changed very few pixels on the face, but the general idea was to make the eyebrows less heavy and the lips a little more full.  Since she's smiling in some of your alternate version, she's smiling here too
I did a little editing on the chest too, as the shines made it look a bit as though her breasts were going a bit upward at the sides.

The new animations are spiffy .  If you're trying to give the fishing boy a bit more personality, since he looks bored perhaps let his head loll a bit to one side (I know my head suddenly feels heavier when I'm bored ), and perhaps the arm holding the rod could be less rigid.

Keep up the good work!


EDIT: and just as an added note, don't be afraid to break the black outlines sometimes, if it fits
EDIT #2: woah, smiley overload!

[ThreeOhFour]

Thanks, MashPotato - the edits are cool, and no, I'm not sick of them yet - particularly the breasts, thanks for that. The face is something I'm going to leave for a little while, and perhaps come back to with a fresh head.

Thanks for the tips on the fishing boy - I'll see what I can do.

Nice to see someone smiling .

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

One thing I do know very well is how to execute animations, and the one thing I tell people over and over is that less is more, meaning that you should always try and keep your frame count low when possible and show the most amount of animation in each frame.  I made an edit that cuts the frame count for this animation almost in half and shows a wider amount of animation overall.

1.  Shortened his upper leg a few pixels, though it could do with more (or longer lower legs).
2.  Added some turning when he reaches for the fishing pole.






You do not need a lot of frames to please the eye, remember that.  Try to do more with each frame than just subtle movements, because the quicker you master how to make good animations with a few frames the easier it will be to make more detailed ones.  Exaggeration is key with animations, and a good example is how I did his exhale, which is 6 frames.  You might also have him kick his feet occasionally, just to get some lower body movement.

[ThreeOhFour]

ProgZ - absolutely excellent! I cannot believe how awesome that exhale is. I love the little bit of hair flying out... this is fantastic!

Thankyou, thankyou!

EDIT: While on the topic of animation, I'd like to bring up the following little point for advice/comment.

When making the plane land, I didn't want it to look like a cardboard cutout dropping down - I wanted it to look like a plane. What I attempted to do was to adjust the perspective of the plane as it sank to the ground, meaning I have 5 different sprites for the plane. Animated, it looks as though there is a slight change in perspective, like so:



I'm not sure if there is a common technique for this sort of thing - I did it as I was feeling somewhat experimental and enjoying trying some new things.

I thought this should do the trick, but when putting the animation in place, I feel the effect was lost completely:



The only way I can even see that I tried this effect is by looking at the tail fin on the left, which appears to get longer as the plane going down. The shadow is just for demonstration sake.

Does this look fine, or have I once again been too subtle with my animation? I probably will not redo this scene, as it was quite labor intensive and time consuming, but I'd love to know for future endeavours of a similar nature.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I think it looks great!  The only problem is how you handled the shadow sliding into place like that.  It wouldn't do that unless the ship was moving horizontally over the surface and would instead (for large objects) start large at a set position and decrease in size but get darker the closer the ship came.  The animation itself looks like a ship in flight, which you might be able to use for a static space scene (if you remove the landing gear). 

[ThreeOhFour]

That's an interesting idea, with the spaceship looking like it is flying in space. I might have to steal it and put it in that game - thanks  . I can see it looking a little comedic, like a cartoon car down a bumpy road, but I want that sort of thing, so that's great!

I wasn't sure about the shadow - I was trying to take the position of the sun into account - I did plan to try the shadow directly underneath, getting smaller as the plane dropped.

I am relieved that the animation is useful to me - I thought I might have wasted my time for a while there.

[paolo]

When making the plane land, I didn't want it to look like a cardboard cutout dropping down [snip]

I thought this should do the trick, but when putting the animation in place, I feel the effect was lost completely [snip]

Ben, I think this is fine. The fact that you can't see it means that it works. If the person playing this looked at the spaceship landing and thought, "There's something funny about that animation... it looks wrong," then that would be cause for concern, but the fact it doesn't attract attention means it has been done right. I don't know if I've explained that very well - do you get what I mean?

EDIT: I disagree with ProgZMax about the size and movement of the shadow. The shadow would start off small and increase in size only if the light source were overhead and not very far away, but it is neither of these - it is behind the ship and very far away. Shadows cast by a light source at infinity - which we can consider the sun to be - do not change size as the object moves because the rays striking the object are parallel. So I think the way Ben has done it is correct, although I think the shadow should be closer to the viewer, judging by the angle to the sun.

EDIT (again): Actually, if the light source were close, the shadow would start of large and diffuse, and then get smaller and sharper as the ship moved in to land. Cartoons often draw the shadow small and getting larger because this is how the umbra changes - they don't bother to draw the penumbra.

[Khris]

Damn nice!

About the ship landing:
You could use the frames to make the perspective change slowly during the drop. Start with the frame where the cockpit is all the way up, then gradually change it. And you could decrease the (drop) speed a bit.

Great work, looking forward to the game!

[ThreeOhFour]

Paul - Yes, I agree, it'd probably stand out more if I hadn't done it. I think it might have been a case of me being excited to test out the technique and it not looking overly 3d. The shadow is something I plan to play around with a bit.

KhrisMUC - I'm going to decrease the drop speed, yeah, it looks really quite jerky at the moment, and I want to accentuate the slowdown before landing a bit better. I have actually used these frames in the drop to change perspective - unless I misunderstood your post - which means you didn't notice it either . Oh well - it was fun to try, and the whole flying in space thing gives me another use for the animation as well. Thanks for your nice comment .

[stajp]

I'm a complete newbie, but can I suggest to slow down descend a lot (almost hovering) just before landing? In vertical landing craft must use thrusters considerably in the final approach to slow down to prevent possible stresses on landing gear.

BUT:
As I can see you don't have thrusters, so you can easily skip my suggestion. 

[Snarky]

I think you're right, Ben. The effect is pretty much lost in the downwards movement. Given that you have the animation, maybe you could use it for the touchdown, so it seems as if it lands first on the back legs, and then drops down the nose? (You might want to put the front leg and back legs on different planes for this to look perfect.) That might work well with the hover moment stajp suggested.

The other thing I think would help the landing is some bounce as the shock-absorbing legs re-extend. Just a one- or two-pixel downward movement, adding another "swing" to the oscillation.

It looks great, by the way!

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Yeah, ignore what I said about the shadow, I wasn't even looking at the sun!  The thing that threw me off was that the shadow wasn't adapting to the surface as it came in (the edge of the cliff, the bridge).

[Darth Mandarb]

If a man could marry a game (even before it's come out!) I would marry this.

Now I'm done praising

I love the animation you did (without the background) but you're right ... when added into the background and put in motion it gets lost a bit.

I thought of trying something so I did ... it was whipped up and not shaded and/or tweaked so forgive the sloppiness, I just wanted to show the idea:



thought maybe if the perspective shift was horizontal instead of vertical it might show a bit better in the full animation.  Don't know ... I think if you did something like this, spending a bit more time on the little details, this could really look good! (note: after I finished I realized a bit of motion to the engines would probably be needed to really sell the movement!)

Hope it helps!

[ThreeOhFour]

If a man could marry a game (even before it's come out!) I would marry this.

Awww... thanks Darth. Now you've got me worried the gameplay will disappoint and you'll regret your words .

I like that idea very much. I think I will have a shot at doing it, just for the sake of being adventurous, but I'm going to leave it at the moment whilst I put together more important elements of the game. I have already passed my hoped deadline of 1 week (Although the game has improved much over the original plan - much thanks to you guys & girls ) and I still have a ton of character animations I want to put in and some scripting issues (Check your email, Paul ). I just finished the last touches on the last background last night (woah, lots of lasts ) and with 9 playable rooms (not counting those used for the map screen, cutscenes and main menu) I feel this might actually have a chance of being classified as a medium length game, rather than a short one - justifying the more than one week development time. Maybe .

Sorry for long post that may/may not be relevant.

EDIT: Hooraay - something new to crit to keep this post on topic .

I don't mind if this animation sucks terribly and I have to redo it because, unlike the windmill (Which I have fixed since you last saw it) it didn't take me over two hours to do .



Finally got around to trying Darth's suggestion with the balloon - tried to make it blow in a breeze. I'd probably only make the animation happen twice a minute in game, I think.

BTW, I promise there are things in the game I haven't asked for help with on this thread .

[paolo]

Ben,

The cute little touches like the windmill and the balloon are fantastic!

One point about the balloon - I don't think it would behave like that when the rope is taut. I think one of two things has to happen here:

* if the balloon is just drifting, the rope would tug the balloon back again straight away (so the taut rope should last for only one or two frames), or
* if the wind is strong (which it might well be, because the windmill is turning) then the wind would keep pushing on the balloon, but because the rope is at its full extent, the balloon would tip over to the left. When the wind dropped, the balloon would go back to being upright and be pulled back in.

I'll check my email when I get home tonight.

[Questionable]

Maybe it's just me but your images aren't loading for me Ben.

EDIT: They're working now... strange

[Babar]

It is just you.

[Hudders]

Best C&C thread ever.

I'm glad Questionable dredged it up from a couple of months ago because otherwise I'd never have seen it.

[Z_Bill]

Some really excellent stuff in this thread. I enjoyed looking through it all.