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Author Topic: Brexitmageddon  (Read 21418 times)

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Brexitmageddon
« on: 24 Jun 2016, 23:05 »
To start, I've got no horse in this race.  But I find it interesting that my normal source of the pulse of global political sentiment (i.e. the AGS forums) has nothing to say on the matter.  Is this a sign of a collective shrug?  What about the inherent democratic deficit of the European Union?  What about the racist tinge of the Leave campaign?  What does it mean to be European?  What do the Scots have to say on the matter?

For me, I honestly didn't see the point in all the paranoia about well-qualified or highly industrious immigrants coming to the country to subsidise the local slackers, but then my country is just a hodge-podge of anyone who bothered to show up, so I have a hard time appreciating nativist sentiment.  On the other hand, as a person I do my best to have as little as possible to do with governments and regulations (don't tell the building inspector), so I appreciate the sentiment of wanting to cast off the burden of an extra level of bureaucracy.  But I want to hear honestly from the Brits and the Euros: what's the real motivation for this Brexit thing, and how's it all gonna shake down?


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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #1 on: 24 Jun 2016, 23:52 »
I think a lot of us are too burned out and depressed to talk about it. I woke up just wanting it to all be a bad dream.

Basically if you want to know why we are unhappy check out James O'Briens LBC recordings of the subject. They did facts not feelings but today explained that we've basically been fucked over by a bunch of people who voted with their feelings. They didn't want experts but now the pound is crashing and Farage is admitting they campaigned on lies and they won't be spending the money as they promised, suddenly people want experts to reassure them! 

The mood is unpleasant here. I'm not proud to be British. Camerons plan to appeal to the right wing nationalists kept his party in power with a majority government, but it has left us with the exposed xenophobic underbelly. People are being openly racist, and proud. It's a huge disappointment, not to mention stupid.

Most Brexiters are the people longing for the good old days when they were kids in the 60s. Boomers who will retire soon and leave us with potentially another recession. It's so stupid because their good old days still had loads of immigrants. So many from the West Indies and Asia! I mean our Indian immigrants created tikka masala curry which is basically a national dish! But they act like our country didn't have foreigners in it back then.

We've mistakenly listened to the scaremongering Murdoch media and bought into the idea that the EU and immigrants are the reason we have so much poverty and joblessness. Why we have no decent housing options and the NHS is failing. It's bullshit. We have no decent housing because our government isn't building affordable housing or capping rent! We have less jobs because harsh austerity is not conducive to economic stimulation. Our education costs and skyrocketing but degrees are becoming worth less and less. Our NHS is being sold off by the UK government. None of this is the EU and migrants! Most of our immigrants come from outside the EU anyway and we have control of those restrictions already! For instance we refused 3000 child refugees from Syria.

So basically we are in the unique position now of having people who believed pencils at the polling stations were an actual vote rigging strategy deciding the future of our nation. People who said they are tired of listening to experts. So those of us who remain have to weirdly hope all the worlds leaders and experts were wrong. Except for Putin, Farage, Johnson and Gove... When Gove is the best of the bunch you know you're in the shit.

Also well done to Wales who voted to leave but still want all the EU flood relief money they get!

Basically to summarise, we chose poorly but now have to make the best of a bad situation and try to salvage what we can of this country in a climate of xenophobia and proud nationalistic ignorance.

But you know we'll just put the kettle on, keep calm and carry on.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #2 on: 25 Jun 2016, 02:00 »
Well, a couple weeks ago we also had a referendum in the Netherlands. See, the European Union had to decide on whether to have economic negotiations with Ukraine, and in every country the politicians decided that negotiations are good, so let's do that. Except for us: for some reason this was forced to a public referendum instead. And, our local Animal Rights party started some heavy campaigning since apparently Ukraine has poor conditions for its cows and chickens. So since almost nobody in the country understood what the refendum was about in the first place, and there were lots of posters against it, so people voted no. Which leaves us in the idiotic position that all of Europe including our own politicians want to negotiate with Ukraine, except we're somehow supposed to veto ourselves now because that's what the popular vote said.

So how does that relate to brexit? Well, it's obvious that if you're going to leave an important decision to popular vote, then you're going to have a bunch of ignorant people decide based on their gut feeling, which is generally the exact opposite of what the country needs.

Well, I'm curious what Scotland is going to do next. Given that their membership of the UK was essentially contigent on the UK being in the EU, it wouldn't surprise me if they declared independence some time next year and join the EU as such. I hear that Scandinavia in particular sees kinship with them and is well in favor, and UK is no longer in a position to block it.

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #3 on: 25 Jun 2016, 02:53 »
I really feel for the Scots. I was one of the ones saying 'Please don't go' the other year, and now they've been completely shafted. I love my Scottish friends and cousins but I absolutely wouldn't blame them for having another pop at independence.

As for the situation now. No one even knows what happens next. That's the scary thing. The referendum shouldn't have been even announced until there was an exact road map of what would happen in either case. I'm not talking about policies and promises (aka lies and fear) but exact information about what deals would be in place, who with, when, how being or not being in the EU would affect all aspects of UK life and politics. The UK has just taken a massive stab in the dark. It *miiight* end up working out for the better in the long term. But no one knows that enough to justify such a massive gamble.

But. This is where we're at, and we have to take a deep breath and try to move forward and not alienate ourselves even more.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #4 on: 25 Jun 2016, 03:48 »
Wrapped in my warming EU blanket, I got awakened by sirens and radio broadcasts: political Europe got overthrown this morning...
« Last Edit: 23 Aug 2016, 01:14 by Amy »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #5 on: 25 Jun 2016, 09:45 »
Pretty much anyone with knowledge and understanding of the subject agrees that the UK has benefited from EU membership, and will almost certainly be hurt by leaving. (The rhetoric about how much the country pays to the union misses the point completely. It's like arguing that anyone who pays taxes would be better off on their own, even if that would mean giving up access to schools, hospitals, roads, running water, etc.) So this was a stupid decision. No one pretends that the EU is perfect, and dissatisfaction with it is understandable. But the EU's dysfunctions are a reflection of European squabbling, and you can't escape from those problems: You can leave the EU, but you can't leave Europe.

Of course, there are countries that manage outside of the EU, and the UK is in pretty good shape overall (not like Greece, for example), so the consequences most likely won't be apocalyptic. But in lots of small ways that add up, Brits will be worse off. For example, 10% of UK tax revenue comes from the financial services industry, and London has become a hub for this in large part because it's possible to trade all over Europe from there. Much of that business may now (gradually) be lost to other European centers, with knock-on effects for other parts of the economy. So that means loss of growth, recession, deficits, swingeing budget cuts, austerity...

I'm most worried for all the people I know who come from various countries in Europe and live in Britain. This referendum has been a giant "screw you!" to them. And many of my friends (Brits and others living in Britain) are researchers: these days, EU grants is one of the main sources of research funding (though the European Research Council), and if the UK cuts itself off from that it will make international research collaborations far more difficult, and British universities much less attractive for top-quality talent.

And sure, a lot of the potential problems can be mitigated: you don't have to kick out foreigners, you can still ask to join the ERC (for a fee), it might even be possible to remain part of the common market so you don't drive away business. But avoiding the most serious consequences of Brexit means, in each case, adopting the very EU policies and regulation the Leavers were protesting against, and now having no direct influence on them. Great win for "sovereignty", eh?

And that's not even taking into account the possible domino effect this decision may have set in motion, that could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom. Congratulations on that!

The only way I can think of that this makes sense is if you think the EU is doomed anyway, and that it's better to get out now in a halfway orderly fashion than to be caught up in its collapse. Though if that comes true, it will be the very definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #6 on: 25 Jun 2016, 11:30 »
My opinion on the matter is that either decision wouldn't have made much of a difference.
There are plenty of countries that aren't part of the EU, that are doing just fine. And there seemed to be equal amounts advantages and disadvantages to staying and leaving. Although it's hard to say which of those advantages and disadvantages were true, and which were propaganda.

No doubt Britain will be in for some hard times. But give it a decade, and things will be exactly as they are now. So in short, I shrugged. In the long term, I doubt it matters. At least now (or at least in two years) I can independently sell games online to other European countries without filling in tax forms. So I've got that going for me I guess. :-\

What especially irks me though. Is that I've heard a LOT of (apparently false) reasons as to why leaving is a good thing. And I've heard lots of people saying that leaving is a bad thing. But I've yet to hear any of the good things you get from staying. I know they're there, but no one seems to be telling anyone. Which is really annoying.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #7 on: 25 Jun 2016, 12:31 »
What especially irks me though. Is that I've heard a LOT of (apparently false) reasons as to why leaving is a good thing. And I've heard lots of people saying that leaving is a bad thing. But I've yet to hear any of the good things you get from staying. I know they're there, but no one seems to be telling anyone. Which is really annoying.

The EU :
  • Funds regeneration of areas of the UK that don't get any from Westminster (that's every area outside of London, AFAIK. London hates spending money on anywhere that isn't London. 
  • Opens us up to the EU market, which is vital for our economy. Just... Thinking about leaving tanked the value of our currency, and companies will abandon the UK without its involvement in the EU market.
  • free movement of people in and out of the uk. We have a lot of emigrants living in other countries, the eu has some immigrants that work here. This is mutually beneficial.
  • There are no customs charges on goods sold within the EU. Note that this includes food, because we don't grow a whole lot here in the UK. Prepare for more expensive everything, combined with the weaker pound will deepen poverty and make life real hard.
  • oh, and without the EU helping us with immigration control, the UK has to do it themselves - eating up funds they could use elsewhere. Like the nhs.
  • There is literally no advantage to leaving, especially not any of the ones stated by the leave campaign.
  • Workers rights, LGBT rights, and maternity leave laws are tied up in the EU. What with the rapid disintegration of the country into open bigotry, I'm not seeing how these will be improved by us leaving. They might never come back.
  • EU safety regulations stop dangerous products from being made or sold here. Laugh all you want at pillow case regulations, those things were made with formaldehyde at some point. Either we leave and import goods from places that don't have safety regulations (but they're cheaper) or we import eu goods anyway and pay more for em.
  • University researchers rely heavily on eu grant money and access to overseas resources for their research. Without access to the EU, we are stuck with just our country's resources, and lol we aren't gonna fund schools nah.
  • Isolating ourselves from the international community will only heighten xenophobia. There's already been political violence. What next could happen?


I'm exhausted by this farce. Nobody actually wanted to leave, it is destroying our country overnight, and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do to stop it.

So yeah, being in the EU wasn't perfect, but it was undoubtedly beneficial to us.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #8 on: 25 Jun 2016, 12:58 »
There are plenty of countries that aren't part of the EU, that are doing just fine.

Clearly it's possible to get by without the EU, but that doesn't mean it won't be a serious disadvantage. And there aren't that many countries in Europe that aren't members and that are "doing just fine". Really only Switzerland (Norway is effectively a non-voting member, plus, you know, has oil), and even they have had to compromise on a lot of the things the Leave campaign rejects.

And there seemed to be equal amounts advantages and disadvantages to staying and leaving.

That's certainly not what the experts think, so this sounds a bit like hearing what you want to hear.

What especially irks me though. Is that I've heard a LOT of (apparently false) reasons as to why leaving is a good thing. And I've heard lots of people saying that leaving is a bad thing. But I've yet to hear any of the good things you get from staying. I know they're there, but no one seems to be telling anyone. Which is really annoying.

Well, since the UK is currently a member, you're already seeing most of those benefits. That's what made it a tough argument for Remain: they couldn't promise much more than the status quo (Cameron's renegotiation would have got you even more privileged treatment, but nothing to get people excited), only argue all the ways the alternative would be a change for the worse (and having it called scare tactics), like Scavenger just listed.

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #9 on: 25 Jun 2016, 14:12 »
To start, I've got no horse in this race.  But I find it interesting that my normal source of the pulse of global political sentiment (i.e. the AGS forums) has nothing to say on the matter.  Is this a sign of a collective shrug?  What about the inherent democratic deficit of the European Union?  What about the racist tinge of the Leave campaign?  What does it mean to be European?  What do the Scots have to say on the matter?

I think that's a really tough set of questions to be honest. I think the low response pretty much comes from what Myinah said e.g. people who lost are upset and don't really feel up to talking yet and the leavers aren't exactly going to start a 'hooray we left' thread as they'll just get called stupid and racist by everyone else.

What it really boils down to is that this is just typical politics - 50% win and 50% lose - you literally can't please everyone.

I'm not going to comment on whether i think it's good or bad as I simply just don't know and I think deep down most people don't know know either - I hear a lot of 'facts' but data can always be interpreted in many different ways. I will say that I think it's probably not the decision I thought it was going to be, but that's how a democracy works at the end of the day. I think the meaning of 'democracy' and probably more importantly words like 'bigot' got lost during this period and I thought the campaigns of both sides got well and truly dragged into the gutter.

In reference to Scotland and London etc - just bare in mind that 40% of those people wanted to leave, that's millions of people - so if Scotland do leave the UK and join the EU, surprise surprise, you'll have a bunch of unhappy people there as well - again, typical politics, can't please everyone!
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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #10 on: 25 Jun 2016, 14:33 »
Quote
Nobody actually wanted to leave

Only 17 million people.

(edit)

Haha, well the entire internet is one big worldwide Steam store page at the moment, it's gnarly!! It's a good thing, it's an excellent thing! Of course it is, this is why I voted to leave :) Fixing the EU from the inside is a very noble and strong argument, but we can't even fix our own country from the inside. I voted leave cos the EU made an irreversible decision in 2015 that negatively affected my business. It was a moment where I experienced a British law being surpassed by a European one, and it made me worse off. So fuck em. I consider most other reasons to be mainstream media influenced, borders, migration, gdp, and believe people should vote with respect to their actual lives and issues that personally affect them and "what the world wants" second. Anyway, haha, more rational thoughts on this soon -- as mentioned, it's all a bit tiring at the moment ;)

Though I will add: I was always keeping remain in mind because as I say there are many strong reasons for it. But another turning point for me was an on the street interview with a woman giving her opinion on the EU. In the background was this homeless guy asking for change and of course londoners just strolling by ignoring. And it was that contrast between someone giving such a shit about the EU to a tv reporter and homeless people in the background not being given a shit about that made me realize we have so many of our own issues that need sorting first, whatever it takes. If that means sending a strong message to the EU, government, rest of world - so be it. If it means some hard times for now, so be it. We can at least accept and take responsiblity that we have some major problems of our own, hard issues on our own soil to tackle first, and then get back to the EU project perhaps. If "out is out" then fair enough, if they won't allow us to tackle our own issues without their (non) assistance, too bad for us I guess. But they are two things that seemingly cannot work in conjunction at this point.
« Last Edit: 25 Jun 2016, 16:18 by Mods »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #11 on: 25 Jun 2016, 14:40 »
What it really boils down to is that this is just typical politics - 50% win and 50% lose - you literally can't please everyone.
The goal of a government is not to please everyone, but to do what is good for the country. Here's where those facts come in handy, and this is why successful businesses and universities (and countries!) are run by experts and not by popular vote.

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #12 on: 25 Jun 2016, 16:10 »
What it really boils down to is that this is just typical politics - 50% win and 50% lose - you literally can't please everyone.
The goal of a government is not to please everyone, but to do what is good for the country. Here's where those facts come in handy, and this is why successful businesses and universities (and countries!) are run by experts and not by popular vote.

To an extent I agree but essentially your simply saying that democracy does not work.

The government unfortunately does try to please everyone as that's the only way they can stay in power. Imagine if the government only tried to do what was good for the country, what a lovely place to live that would be!
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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #13 on: 25 Jun 2016, 16:15 »
I genuinely feel ashamed of the outcome. It was a democratic vote, but what does this result say about my nation especially given the tone of the campaign and the reasons many voters publicly gave for their vote? It certainly does not represent me - but I accept this is a divided society. I was horrified by comments I saw in the days before the vote in my social media feeds. I was worried this might happen but still shocked when it did. Now, after the result, the leave camp is already backtracking on its pledges. Cornwall voted to leave then immediately sent a letter to the government requesting their annual EU funding allowance be preserved... not likely! The biggest loss is that, rather than 'making Great Britain great again', it looks more likely brexit will essentially make Great Britain extinct (brextinct?). Scotland will leave - the SNP have the scent now and the population is livid from their treatment after the previous referendum. They'll likely be followed by NI. Wales, despite the result, won't want to be the last one left under the thumb. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and mine is that this was a sad sad day for Great Britain (and Europe, although I hope the EU survives and makes a mockery of us but I fear other nations will follow our precedent). I really hope I'm proved wrong - as people say, it's possible to survive outside the EU - but it comes at great cost. The immediate financial impact wiped off the equivalent cost of decades of EU membership, was it worth it? And as I outlined above, Great Britain has even more to lose by leaving, it may essentially cease to exist - which will have further economic impacts. Depressing :(

(Didn't set out to write something long... but it still hurts.)

Edit 1 - reading some of the previous posts I agree that a decision such as this should never have been put in the hands of the electorate - but if there was no choice - then the wording and terms of the referendum should have been much more robust. This was just reckless... but then the majority has spoken

Edit 2 - Also reading the posts above - I could write at length about my views regarding the real political motives behind this vote and who really wins/loses - but the comment about Rupert Murdoch and his publication 'the Sun' supporting the leave campaign is a shrewd one (I saw a great observation about Liverpool voting remain when demographically similar locations voted heavily for leave... the Sun hasn't been sold in Liverpool for 27 years). A great example of someone with scrupulous morals and vested personal interests who, with EU policy protection out of the picture, can now probably influence British politics to a greater extent. Remind me who elected him?
« Last Edit: 25 Jun 2016, 16:50 by Haggis »

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #14 on: 25 Jun 2016, 18:09 »
Edit 1 - reading some of the previous posts I agree that a decision such as this should never have been put in the hands of the electorate - but if there was no choice - then the wording and terms of the referendum should have been much more robust. This was just reckless... but then the majority has spoken

I tend to agree with this, it's a sort of, we don't quite trust democracy-ish type of view. Maybe for such a major change it should just have to be a higher majority to win, like 60% needed to actually leave.
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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #15 on: 25 Jun 2016, 21:29 »
The United Kingdom was always the green green land of roleplay, mudlarking and all sorts of adventure. Loving those, I won't let you go!
« Last Edit: 23 Aug 2016, 00:57 by Amy »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #16 on: 25 Jun 2016, 22:30 »
To an extent I agree but essentially your simply saying that democracy does not work.
Not at all. One of the points of democracy is that you elect expert politicians to govern the country since it is a given that your neighbor Bob can't do it. Running a country is not a series of straightforward yes/no questions.

Quote
The government unfortunately does try to please everyone as that's the only way they can stay in power. Imagine if the government only tried to do what was good for the country, what a lovely place to live that would be!
While no government is perfect, the politicians of some countries do lean more towards doing what's good for the country, and others do lean more towards staying in power. The former kind does tend to make the country more prosperous and having higher standards of living.

Quote
but the comment about Rupert Murdoch and his publication 'the Sun' supporting the leave campaign is a shrewd one
It is a fair point that any major party outside of the EU, particularly from the US or China, has a vested interest in breaking up the EU, and thus in supporting the brexit.

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #17 on: 25 Jun 2016, 22:42 »
To an extent I agree but essentially your simply saying that democracy does not work.
Not at all. One of the points of democracy is that you elect expert politicians to govern the country since it is a given that your neighbor Bob can't do it. Running a country is not a series of straightforward yes/no questions.

I do agree with you I'm just playing a bit of Devil's advocate to be honest, but that said, one of the other points of a democracy is where the expert politicians DO give your neighbour Bob a chance to run the country - by giving them a yes/no question. So we can't go kicking up a fuss when democracy does exactly what it can do. Whether it should have done that, I agree with you - very debatable to say the least!
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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #18 on: 25 Jun 2016, 22:55 »
Quote
And it was that contrast between someone giving such a shit about the EU to a tv reporter and homeless people in the background not being given a shit about that made me realize we have so many of our own issues that need sorting first,

I can understand you got pissed by an EU law that screwed your business, but you taking a cultural issue and make it a reason for leaving EU? You do realize that poverty exists and existed before the EU right? Right? This will never change, unless you change an entire culture! Oh well... here are 2 entire generations that haven't even experienced not being in the EU that will now have to wake up to a new reality. Sure hope it won't be for the worse.
But I do fear that this is the "beginning of the end". Because people tend to more easily focus on the small "negative" things and forget all the good things they got from it... maybe because they always had it, that it never even cross their minds that they will loose all that when they voted out.

Maybe one day in the long long future we will be "citizens of the world", which I like to consider my self in, instead of "citizen of country x". Maybe it's just me, that don't get nationalism. :-[
« Last Edit: 25 Jun 2016, 22:56 by Cassiebsg »
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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #19 on: 26 Jun 2016, 01:54 »
I've just been reading an article on "Regrexit" and a comment made by many "Leavers" who regret their vote just shows the basic stupidity of human beings in my opinion:

Basically:

"I didn't think that Leave had any chance of happening, so I felt there was no harm in voting for it."

Yes, people are actually Tweeting this shite, about themselves, and seem to have no idea how moronic it makes them look.

Really, people?! I mean...WTF?!?!

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #20 on: 26 Jun 2016, 02:05 »
Quote
Maybe it's just me, that don't get nationalism. :-[

Much love for you, Cassie!

I was really devastated by the news I got yesterday in the morning. I never thought the extremely right-leaning forces in europe gained that much power already, to convince over 33% (52% of 72% of all possible voters... (wtf)) of one of the most democratic nations on earth to vote for leaving a federation, that gives you so many benefits and in relation to the economical, cultural and educational overvalue takes only a imho reasonable amount of money for it.

We really have to ask ourself very seriously now "How did this happen?" and more importantly "How can we prevent it, that the dangerous righ-wing populists gain more power from this victory in other countries?"
Me and my generation really don't want to live in a europe that is just backward-looking, narcissistic and fearful, that forgets to look into the future with courage, sanity and tolerance.

What's even more terrible for me: I see a lot of parallels between what the UK's citizens have become by a majority and what Germany's people are becoming at the moment. I am very aware of the political developments in my home country. The "refugee crisis" flushed very ugly opinions out in a serious amount and has now, one year before the next national election, made a party strong, that from the beginning of it's existence has been against the EU, against immigration, seemingly against any kind of cultural diversity. An ultra conservative way of thinking is becoming more and more popular and nobody here really knows, how powerful it has become already (or has ever been?)

Maybe some parts are really rotten inside of the EU. Actually I am sure some are, because power always goes hand in hand with corruption and therfore unsocial egoism at some point. But instead of abandoning, the remaining member states should work on that problems without destructive methods and radicality. It's clearly time for changes, but we shouldn't try to fix that with hot heads.
And if this referendum has really been the beginning of the end of the european union, I am wholheartedly wishing and hoping that something better is coming out of it. :-\

« Last Edit: 26 Jun 2016, 02:07 by Kumpel »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #21 on: 26 Jun 2016, 20:53 »
From the other side of the Atlantic it appears the choice was between economic advantage or freedom ... and freedom won.  Perhaps The Rascals said it best

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #22 on: 26 Jun 2016, 21:13 »
It's really hard to be free when you're in poverty and your country is crumbling around you.

So maybe it's freedom for rich people who want to be free from eu workers rights laws, or racists who want to be free to violently oust people they see as foreigners.

This isn't freedom, it's desperation that'll lead to worse things. Don't try to sugar coat it with platitudes. Freedom requires you not to be crushed by your country collapsing.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #23 on: 26 Jun 2016, 21:14 »
Hah, this is what happens when you play crappy football! UK is out! :P

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #24 on: 26 Jun 2016, 22:38 »
Since I don't live there I can only tell you my opinion based on the US news reports.  From the reporting here the reasons given to stay were related to economics while the reasons to leave were related with dissatisfaction with the EU government in Brussels and a desire to run their own affairs.  That's what was reported here.

Whether or not Briton will be better off is for the British and time to decide.  However, it can't be denied that they took steps to manage their own affairs as they see fit and to accept whatever consequences may come. That is freedom (i.e. managing your own affairs) and not a platitude. 

I frankly don't get the racism thing.  It seems to me to be a clear ad hominem lacking a factual or intellectual basis.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #25 on: 27 Jun 2016, 00:24 »
Not all brexiters voted for this reason - the bureaucratic influence of Brussels was a key factor too. The summary would be, think Trump and his constant attack on the Mexicans.

Essentially you have to live here to understand the racism issue. Parties like UKIP (and the BNP) which reignited the debate to leave the EU have been widely known for holding and communicating racist views and comments - just watch John Oliver's Brexit piece from last Thursday. Over the decades the tabloid press (headed by moral figureheads such as Rupert Murdoch) have run near constant poisonous articles about EU migrants (stealing our jobs, criminals back home, attacking our women etc) - never communicating the benefits. Immigration therefore was a core argument during the Brexit debates, preying on peoples fears, and sadly it will have been the main reason a potentially large number of people voted leave. For example, the leave campaign made a huge point of flagging the (remote) possibility of Turkey joining the EU - their leaflets would show Turkey, but also include and prominently label Syria and Iraq despite them having nothing to do with the EU. We've already seen a number of incidents of racism across the country since the result, "Go back to where you came from etc".

Economics only came into it when the Remain camp tried to highlight the dangers of leaving the EU - that there would be a recession, pound would plummet etc. Pretty much what we've seen. The leave campaign also grossly exaggerated the financial amount leaving the EU would save the UK - the remain camp tried to highlight this lie but it was only admitted to be a 'mistake' on the morning of the result. We've also seen leave campaigners claim they 'made no promises, only listed possibilities' and admit that high levels of migration to and from the EU will continue. 

It's been a horrible debate with a horrible outcome.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #26 on: 27 Jun 2016, 01:29 »
However, it can't be denied that they took steps to manage their own affairs as they see fit and to accept whatever consequences may come.

But that is wrong on both counts.

First, leaving the EU doesn't allow them to manage their own affairs: they need to cooperate with the EU but no longer have direct influence of them. That makes them less able to manage their own affairs.

Second, they don't want to accept consequences: that is, they want to stop paying EU, but immediately petitioned the EU to keep paying the UK (e.g. grants for culture, education, and so forth).

This is not freedom, it is playing ostrich.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #27 on: 27 Jun 2016, 01:37 »
Have you seen Boris Johnson's article that will be published in tomorrow's Telegraph? Furious back pedalling in terms of the scale of Brexit and what appears to be a suggestion that we will still be in the EU or the EEA. Clear as mud, a country completely rudderless at the moment.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #28 on: 27 Jun 2016, 01:52 »
I frankly don't get the racism thing.  It seems to me to be a clear ad hominem lacking a factual or intellectual basis.

Ahem.



I dunno, maybe me actually being here gives me a more accurate picture of what's going on. Can you trust us when we say what's actually happening?

I've MET British racists. Yes, racism is a huge part of it. Yes, the leave campaign sent out leaflets appealing to racists.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #29 on: 27 Jun 2016, 02:18 »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #30 on: 27 Jun 2016, 04:51 »
Wow Haggis...Just read through those incidents and they are pretty shocking. Of course the media mostly reports on extreme examples and when people behave decently it goes under the radar a lot of the time. But yeah: Still some pretty shocking stuff, especially considering it's not just the skinheads doing/saying this stuff.

Having been on the receiving end of racism here in Japan many a time, and also in Australia for speaking Japanese with my wife in a pub (we were told by a patron, a young woman of about 20 years of age, to either "speak Australian" or get out of the country), I know how enraged and yet how powerless it makes one feel. I guess what I want to say is that it sucks.
« Last Edit: 27 Jun 2016, 05:06 by Mandle »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #31 on: 27 Jun 2016, 11:04 »
I frankly don't get the racism thing.  It seems to me to be a clear ad hominem lacking a factual or intellectual basis.

Care to elaborate on this? Because it sounds like you mean to say that racism isn't a thing within the leave-campaign.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #32 on: 27 Jun 2016, 11:30 »
Since I don't live there I can only tell you my opinion based on the US news reports.  From the reporting here the reasons given to stay were related to economics while the reasons to leave were related with dissatisfaction with the EU government in Brussels and a desire to run their own affairs.  That's what was reported here.

Since others are responding to your other points, let me just pick you up on two things:

-No, that was not the only thing that was reported in US news reports. For example, particularly after the murder of Jo Cox there was quite a lot of coverage of the xenophobic tone of the Leave campaign. Another thing that was widely reported were the economic arguments made by the Leavers (e.g. the £350/week allegedly sent to the EU), and the fact that these claims didn't hold up.
-We are communicating, right now, through a global electronic network that allows us access to news and information from all over the world. Living in the US does not mean you are limited to what your local news media reports. For a local British perspective, you could easily seek out e.g. The Guardian (pro-Remain), The Telegraph (pro-Leave) or the BBC (fairly neutral).

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #33 on: 27 Jun 2016, 12:33 »
BBC 'neutrality' is another topic of discussion at present... but we can leave that for another day.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #34 on: 27 Jun 2016, 15:14 »

Wow, that is very racist. >:(
And it's one of the few things I've seen which has actually offended me (I don't seem to get offended by anything).
And that's probably because my grandfather on my mother's side, was Polish. He fought in WW2 for Britain as well.

I'll never get Britain's hatred against the Polish. I always thought we were supposed to have an unexplainable hatred against the French. ???

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #35 on: 27 Jun 2016, 15:37 »
I'm afraid I've been hearing stuff like that for years and years - hatred against the Polish, Romanians, Lithuanians, the Turkish, Muslims in general...

But what can you expect from a country where one of the biggest newspapers ran a story celebrating Nazis, and never got less extremely right wing than that? The Daily Mail continually runs snarl pieces about "immigrants".

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #36 on: 27 Jun 2016, 18:13 »
If you're looking for an interesting take on Brexit, which might cover some background unfamiliar to non-Brits, I found this piece quite thought-provoking:

Quote
In this context, the slogan ‘take back control' was a piece of political genius. It worked on every level between the macroeconomic and the psychoanalytic. Think of what it means on an individual level to rediscover control. To be a person without control (for instance to suffer incontinence or a facial tick) is to be the butt of cruel jokes, to be potentially embarrassed in public. It potentially reduces one's independence. What was so clever about the language of the Leave campaign was that it spoke directly to this feeling of inadequacy and embarrassment, then promised to eradicate it. The promise had nothing to do with economics or policy, but everything to do with the psychological allure of autonomy and self-respect. Farrage's political strategy was to take seriously communities who'd otherwise been taken for granted for much of the past 50 years.

http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #37 on: 28 Jun 2016, 17:32 »
My amused observations:

- I think my house must have received more than twice as many anti EU leaflets than pro, all of them different designs.

- Certain people I spoke to who voted out to stop immigration acted as if it would completely stop, and that any foreigners would simply disappear! (laugh)

- These same people thought that as of the result, we are literally not part of the EU! Like it doesn't have to be voted through parliament, that we won't end up following EU regs anyway (a possibility)!
« Last Edit: 28 Jun 2016, 18:00 by Retro Wolf »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #38 on: 28 Jun 2016, 18:28 »
I've just heard the referendum is only advisory and that the government could still elect to do something else than implement it in the most literal fashion... any thoughts on that?

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #39 on: 28 Jun 2016, 21:32 »
It's true it's advisory and not legally binding - but the 'people in charge', which seems to be no one at the moment, keep saying the result is final and must be respected. It all stinks at the moment like something is going on. Either they won't do it and are delaying to find a legitimate reason not to, or Boris is an idiot and really thinks he'll get a great deal from the EU to stay but with his demands, or we really are trying to come up with a plan to successfully obliterate ourselves as a nation. Time will tell.

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #40 on: 28 Jun 2016, 22:06 »
It's been absolutely awful. I live in London with my French wife (I'm from New Zealand) and our future is now somewhat up in the air! Millions of people voted Leave against their own best interests... so many lies from the Leave campaign that fanned and spread already brewing tensions. And then they won and it turned out they had absolutely no plan. Really awful stuff, and so unnecessary.

It's also been a huge distraction... have barely loaded up AGS in a week!!! :S
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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #41 on: 29 Jun 2016, 00:06 »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #42 on: 29 Jun 2016, 01:50 »
*sigh*

Poor Boris. All he wanted to do was oust Cameron from his seat at the head of the Tory table, not actually cause a Brexit. The sad-sack, "WTF?!" expression he's been wearing since it all got away from him is a sight to behold. He's not really a racist; he just dabbled in the rhetoric usually spouted by Farage and his party of sentient hemorrhoids as a means to an end. He doesn't really want to fuck things up for Scotland, Northern Ireland (welcome back, border!), and British immigrants all over Europe, he just really, really wants to be Prime Minister.

Still...fifty-one percent is a lot of people to be swayed by an power-grabbing idiot and a racist hemorrhoid. Who knew?

But what's done is done. Any and all political stalling that may be happening at the moment is pointless on so many levels, and anybody who thinks the EU aren't determined to send Britain on it's way after such a massive "Fuck You!" is going to be very disappointed.

On the plus side, at least their kettles are safe.
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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #43 on: 29 Jun 2016, 02:48 »
On the plus side, at least their kettles are safe.
I was listening to the radio as the results started coming in. They read out a letter or tweet from a man whose reason for voting to leave the EU was because of the ban in high-powered vacuum cleaners. I mean, first-world problems or what.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #44 on: 29 Jun 2016, 20:09 »
That guy should have bought the G-Tech Air Ram. It's pretty badass!

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #45 on: 01 Aug 2016, 23:26 »
It's been over a month... I'm still alive!!
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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #46 on: 02 Aug 2016, 02:43 »
It's been over a month... I'm still alive!!
Brexit hasn't even happened yet.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #47 on: 02 Aug 2016, 04:38 »
but there was this newsreport that announced it's the plan to strategically place very explosive explosives around the borders of SB(*) and blow them up to fill the one and only long and ever moat and make england a new isolated island of prosperous islandolation. The masterplan is said to be undermining everything to make the whole country a floating island that will drift and float around the world and will have some great adventures. In the end it will become a pirate! Arrrr! 8-)

(*) SB is just small britain. Little britain. britain't.
haha, good luck, it sure is a fun ride. sadly tea doesn't burn when liquid.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #48 on: 02 Aug 2016, 08:31 »
Yay just like Lost!.

It probably won't happen to be fair. Like what has already been said it's not a legally binding vote more a suggestion. I'm more concerned of the fact that we are being led by an unelected official (the exact thing brexiters voted to leave for).

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #49 on: 02 Aug 2016, 11:25 »
So according to our news sites here, industrial production in the UK declined even faster than expected; Bank of England predicts economic decline; and consumer confidence has the biggest drop since 26 years. Lloyd's Bank has canceled 3000 jobs, WizzAir canceled its growth plans in the UK, and both agricultural and technological industries have expressed severe concerns.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #50 on: 02 Aug 2016, 11:33 »
What I want is another referendum. I want to see if everyone has suddenly changed their minds, now that they know they were lied to. (laugh)

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #51 on: 07 Aug 2016, 09:47 »
What I want is another referendum. I want to see if everyone has suddenly changed their minds, now that they know they were lied to. (laugh)

It would be interesting to find out the result, but probably not worth the money to run it. The real damage is already done, whether Britain ends up exiting or not: the trust of the EU is now lost, probably forever. The EU will most likely never think of Britain as a real partner in anything ever again.

I made this example when talking with some British friends: It's like you heard some lies that your wife was having an affair and believed them, came home drunk, and said you wanted a divorce. Then the next day, sober, you realized it was all lies and tell her that you don't want a divorce after all. It's probably not going to be that easy...

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #52 on: 07 Aug 2016, 15:07 »
the trust of the EU is now lost, probably forever. The EU will most likely never think of Britain as a real partner in anything ever again.

Ah, but time heals all wounds.  It took exactly twelve years for Germany to go from apocalyptic war-monger to being a founding member of the EEC.  I'll bet Britain can manage cordial relations with its ex somewhat more quickly.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #53 on: 07 Aug 2016, 17:48 »
the trust of the EU is now lost, probably forever. The EU will most likely never think of Britain as a real partner in anything ever again.

Ah, but time heals all wounds.  It took exactly twelve years for Germany to go from apocalyptic war-monger to being a founding member of the EEC.  I'll bet Britain can manage cordial relations with its ex somewhat more quickly.

Very good point...It's always good to not look at things in absolutes...

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #54 on: 07 Aug 2016, 18:14 »
Spoiler: ShowHide
But what to do when you come home drunk (as usual) while your wife is having an affair...  Also she insists to use Visionaire for adventure-making (wtf)
« Last Edit: 23 Aug 2016, 00:41 by Amy »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #55 on: 08 Aug 2016, 09:23 »
But what to do when you come home drunk (as usual) while your wife is having an affair...
Ah that's ok. Sometimes you've got to let your wife be her own person and do her own thing.

Also she insists to use Visionaire for adventure-making  (wtf)
8-0 That's unforgivable! She should be executed for such a heinous crime!
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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #56 on: 01 Oct 2016, 14:50 »
Bit late to the party but I have a couple of things to say about Brexit. This post is a bit introspective, because I voted to leave and would do so again, but I'm not ashamed to admit that I can't pin down exactly why that is my decision. I voted with my gut. I'd appreciate if someone could begin some kind of dialectic on this, I'm not explicitly trying to defend myself.

Also well done to Wales who voted to leave but still want all the EU flood relief money they get!

The Wales vote still surprises me. In spite of the amount of EU funding the Valleys have received - entire town centres being transformed with EU money - and all of these areas voted to leave. I can only think it must be ignorance of where the money has come from.

I'm most worried for all the people I know who come from various countries in Europe and live in Britain. This referendum has been a giant "screw you!" to them.

Sadly this is very true. It's strange actually, I arrived in Luxembourg on the evening of the 23rd June, one major seat of the Union, and woke up to my Austrian girlfriend crying about the result on the morning of the 24th. It was a strange feeling.

People may call me selfish or stupid for voting to leave when I had something so personal at stake. I only told her how I voted a few days after the referendum. She lives in the UK with me and obviously we are not certain of her status once we eventually leave. But despite this, for some reason I still voted to leave. It was certainly not through lack of care, or a personal slight against Europeans. Although I completely understand how it seems like a personal attack, and for some leave voters it was, but it certainly wasn't for me.

Over the next few days in Luxembourg I went sightseeing to the ECJ, and went into an EU information centre to talk to the people there, which I will come back to.

The only way I can think of that this makes sense is if you think the EU is doomed anyway, and that it's better to get out now in a halfway orderly fashion than to be caught up in its collapse. Though if that comes true, it will be the very definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I feel that a 'preemptive' strike concerning the EU is at least in part behind my thinking. A long-term economic and monetary union is certainly possible; but I doubt an ever closer political union will ever be able to work in the long term. The problem with this thinking is that it is simply my gut feeling that it won't work, and that the end will be messy - the scale of the EU project has never been attempted before and so we have no yardstick of success or longevity for such a complex union. I could be completely wrong, but in the current state of affairs, I would be surprised if the EU lasts another 50 years, by which time I'll be 71.

As an aside, it has annoyed me that the elderly have been targeted for exercising their democratic rights and 'stealing' the future of the EU from the young voters. Young people tend to be stupid and naive. They don't know what they want and have not yet been disillusioned to how the world really works. Simply by virtue of time old people have more life experience and therefore can exercise greater foresight. Granted, a fair few are stuck-in-the muds!

But my granddad is over 80 and voted to remain with admirable caution for people's futures beyond his own life. I have heard first-hand people saying that old people should not be allowed to vote on such matters, and it upsets me that people would want to deny him his vote. Plainly it is the arrogance of youth.

I voted leave cos the EU made an irreversible decision in 2015 that negatively affected my business. It was a moment where I experienced a British law being surpassed by a European one, and it made me worse off. So fuck em. I consider most other reasons to be mainstream media influenced, borders, migration, gdp, and believe people should vote with respect to their actual lives and issues that personally affect them and "what the world wants" second.

I was always keeping remain in mind because as I say there are many strong reasons for it. But another turning point for me was an on the street interview with a woman giving her opinion on the EU. In the background was this homeless guy asking for change and of course londoners just strolling by ignoring. And it was that contrast between someone giving such a shit about the EU to a tv reporter and homeless people in the background not being given a shit about that made me realize we have so many of our own issues that need sorting first, whatever it takes.

I think these two things get to the heart of my views on the EU and Brexit. When I went to the EU information centre in Luxembourg, I had no idea of the strength of dedication and optimism towards the EU project on the mainland. I had a long conversation with the woman who worked there and she was genuinely sad about the result, she had been crying all morning. And I just couldn't picture myself ever getting emotional about the EU, or believing it was in any way an important feature of my life, in the sense that it was something tangible and visible to look up to as a unifying undertaking. It is a bold claim but I think it is fair to say, that even of the people who voted remain, in general they do not care half as much about the EU as the average Luxembourgian or Austrian. I'm certain that Brexit was always going to happen, because there is a fundamental ideological principle of togetherness that underpins the entire EU, which has not permeated the culture or psyche of the average UK citizen.

I am genuinely hopeful for a new chapter of my country outside of a union that I do not identify with. I think that a vote to leave by the 51.9% of people reveals a sense of optimism: the short term will definitely not be easy, it will be hard, but the optimism is for the future, and that is what we need right now.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #57 on: 01 Oct 2016, 15:11 »
Generally speaking, government gets worse the larger it gets, because the more power these public servants have, the less accountable they are, and the more that power can be abused for their own benefit.

To subject all the diverse peoples of a continent, or a planet, to a single monolithic and faceless, unelected government shows nothing but disrespect and disregard for that diversity. In the end this type of nonsense only benefits those in control of it.

And to find a scapegoat to blame for their sacrilegious beliefs is an all too common tool of divisive BS used by people who seek to conquer hearts and minds.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #58 on: 01 Oct 2016, 17:30 »
To subject all the diverse peoples of a continent, or a planet, to a single monolithic and faceless, unelected government shows nothing but disrespect and disregard for that diversity. In the end this type of nonsense only benefits those in control of it.
And since (almost) everyone wants world peace, everyone has unknowingly been wanting that single monolithic and faceless unelected government.
After all, if the whole world was ran by just one man (or group of men), there wouldn't be any wars between countries. Maybe civil wars, but only if the world wasn't repressive enough. (laugh)

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #59 on: 01 Oct 2016, 17:42 »
Well, I think the people who assume that world government is a laudable goal unknowingly want that, but it's certainly possible to make the world a whole lot more peaceful and less exploitative than it is now without resorting to something as simplistic as world government. But yeah, the people who expect that peace to be absolute do generally want a big daddy/brother telling them what to do.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #60 on: 02 Oct 2016, 10:46 »
One world government can't work, too huge a world in relation to humans, and too many humans.

You can see how well the one euro gov works :P

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #61 on: 02 Oct 2016, 12:21 »
One world government can't work, too huge a world in relation to humans, and too many humans.

The counter-argument could also be made that with a world population this huge, and with the power to make the world unlivable for the human race, we can't progress much further, or maybe even survive much longer, with the current system of seperate viewpoints constantly clashing...

I cannot imagine a way to implement a world government though...But if it is ever successfully done: It would be the pinacle of human achievement so far...

And therefore I feel it is not a goal that should be given up on despite seeming so improbable...

And it would be a great win condition for Civ XX... (If it's not already a win condition... I haven't played much beyond Civ 2)

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #62 on: 03 Oct 2016, 10:34 »
I cannot imagine a way to implement a world government though...But if it is ever successfully done: It would be the pinacle of human achievement so far...

Ooo, I'm not too sure about that! The biggest human undertaking, perhaps, but complexity does not equal progress. We would need to know what it looks like before we call it an achievement.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #63 on: 03 Oct 2016, 16:40 »
I cannot imagine a way to implement a world government though...But if it is ever successfully done: It would be the pinacle of human achievement so far...

Ooo, I'm not too sure about that! The biggest human undertaking, perhaps, but complexity does not equal progress. We would need to know what it looks like before we call it an achievement.

Yeah...I meant if it actually worked then it would be the pinacle...

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #64 on: 03 Oct 2016, 23:36 »
The problem with this thinking is that it is simply my gut feeling [...]

The biggest problem modern western society has is this right there: people voting with their gut.
People relying on their gut. People apparently thinking with their gut.

I'm not trying to attack you, but your gut is by far the last thing you should listen to when it comes to informed decision-making.

People need to STOP listening to their guts, and the Trumps and Farages and ErdoÄŸans will lose their power.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #65 on: 04 Oct 2016, 10:56 »
I'm not trying to attack you, but your gut is by far the last thing you should listen to when it comes to informed decision-making.
Except when you're hungry. That's probably the best time to listen to your gut. (laugh)

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #66 on: 04 Oct 2016, 23:01 »
There's a huge difference between a reactionary decision and an intuitive one.

A crude example might be the difference between "I'll vote for satan before I vote for trump" or "I voted for an independent candidate even though all three promised things that would benefit me."

Bit of a difficult idea to explain, especially when I know that there are people without a lick of intuition. It's a decision which you don't fully understand, one qualified by the subconscious mind rather than the conscious.

Leaving the EU was the correct move, even if it's expected that they will sabotage your economy for it. Voting to leave because you got swept up in the fervour is a reactionary choice, voting to leave because somehow you know it's the right choice, in spite of the prevailing fervour, is an intuitive one.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #67 on: 06 Oct 2016, 01:22 »
There's a huge difference between a reactionary decision and an intuitive one.

A crude example might be the difference between "I'll vote for satan before I vote for trump" or "I voted for an independent candidate even though all three promised things that would benefit me."

Bit of a difficult idea to explain, especially when I know that there are people without a lick of intuition. It's a decision which you don't fully understand, one qualified by the subconscious mind rather than the conscious.

The only difference between those things is that you either realise your subconscious bias and influences, or you don't. Voting with your gut is still unbelievably unwise.

Leaving the EU was the correct move, even if it's expected that they will sabotage your economy for it.

And here's where I take so much umbrage with that. Leaving the EU is possibly the worst thing that we could possibly do. Just look at what the government is doing now. Our economy is tanked and tanks every time they affirm they're gonna leave, they're floating the idea of deporting EU citizens to replace with british ones and forcing companies to disclose how many foreign workers they are employing, and what is their economic plan? Artisan jams and cakes? It's monstrous. "Leaving the EU for more sovereignty" was just a dogwhistle for "Shit, let's be incredibly fascist and xenophobic" and that's all it ever was. They had no plans, they had no real idea, they just wanted to reconfirm how xenophobic they want the UK to be. And anyone, ANYONE who says otherwise is completely blind. Hate crime rocketed after Brexit, and even before Brexit the leave propaganda mimicked early Nazi propaganda about immigrants and outsiders. It forces talent out of the country, because wow, the UK's education system sure did get worse under the coinservatives and that's not gonna bring in many new people, and if we lose free travel with the EU we can't even escape the country while it turns into Nazis Take Westminster. Brexit is a living hell, and leaving was a huge mistake, not a correct decision, and any mollification of "voting with your guts to leave" by saying that somehow thinking less about the situation you're voting on is more noble than knowing why you're doing something is not going to help. It was a mistake. It should have never happened.

And no, nobody is sabotaging the UK's economy except the people running the UK. If someone told you putting your hand on a hot stove would burn you, would you then say that the person who warned you was burning you, and not your own stupid decision? Of course the economy would tank if we tried to leave the EU, or even said that we would - our economy is full of businesses that use the UK as a homebase because of our ties with the EU. Stop with the conspiracy stuff, Jack. It's getting old. And quite frankly, it's insulting.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #68 on: 06 Oct 2016, 12:28 »
Could I trouble you to find out which part of the ISDS you're most looking forward to?

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #69 on: 06 Oct 2016, 12:31 »
The problem with this thinking is that it is simply my gut feeling [...]

The biggest problem modern western society has is this right there: people voting with their gut.
People relying on their gut. People apparently thinking with their gut.

I'm not trying to attack you, but your gut is by far the last thing you should listen to when it comes to informed decision-making.

People need to STOP listening to their guts, and the Trumps and Farages and ErdoÄŸans will lose their power.

That's true, I do agree, but I didn't make my decision on polling day and certainly didn't get swept up in the populist Leave campaign. Ever since I learnt what the EU was I have always felt the same. Without sounding arrogant it is not through ignorance either, I've studied EU frameworks and EU law in detail. As a matter of principle I don't believe it is right that an unelected body has the power to legislate in a country at a supreme, binding level, even if such laws are 'good' law. Sure, we elect MEPs to Brussels, but (a) they do not have legislative initiative and (b) naturally the majority of the Parliament is made up of seats that you have no capacity to elect.

So, by 'gut feeling', I perhaps mean that I could see the merits of both sides, but basically on a matter of principle I voted to Leave.

... we can't even escape the country while it turns into Nazis Take Westminster. Brexit is a living hell

Do you really believe the ground will split and fire will spring forth when we leave the EU? That the EU is the only thing keeping us from the end-times? I think you are catastrophising Brexit just a tiny bit.

Nobody is going to starve because we leave the EU. In the short-term things will not be good, which would happen to any country that leaves. But it's pessimistic to believe that the UK cannot survive and shape its own future outside the EU, and slightly bizarre to believe we will suddenly descend into a fascist state.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #70 on: 06 Oct 2016, 13:02 »
Nobody is going to starve because we leave the EU. In the short-term things will not be good, which would happen to any country that leaves. But it's pessimistic to believe that the UK cannot survive and shape its own future outside the EU, and slightly bizarre to believe we will suddenly descend into a fascist state.

OK, but what about Children of immigrant families being catagorised (historically used for expulsion of those families), them floating legislation to shame companies and make them list how many foreign workers they have? It really does look like England is trying it's darndest to make life a living hell for people who aren't white british nationals. It's not just the economy. The break from the EU opened the floodgates to a lot of xenophobic bullshit, vindicated it, celebrated it. You know that hate crimes against non-white british citizens went up fivefold after the referendum result. Nothing will suddenly happen. But it will descend into monstrous actions if it isn't stopped cold. You can't be blind to what it will unleash and why the referendum was proposed in the first place. Sure, leaving the EU on it's own might work, but not in this political climate, and not with this government, and not with their lack of a plan, and not with xenophobia as the campaign's major focus. UKIP has been angling for it for years, and they're about as far right as you can get away with.

In the end, it was never really about EU leadership, or the EU itself. You can see it by the legislation that is being proposed right now - they aren't setting up business deals and improving the economy, they're not trying to talk seriously about how the UK will work after Brexit. They're salivating over expelling non-British people from the UK. Leaving the EU was always about xenophobia.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #71 on: 06 Oct 2016, 14:04 »
Leaving the EU was always about xenophobia.
Just to throw this in here though, not everyone who wanted to leave the EU did it for xenophobic reasons.
Does that count for anything?

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #72 on: 06 Oct 2016, 14:29 »
Just to throw this in here though, not everyone who wanted to leave the EU did it for xenophobic reasons.
Does that count for anything?

Not really. The people in charge wanted to do it for xenophobic reasons, the campaign was xenophobic, it validated xenophobia. It doesn't matter what other reasons there were, if the people in charge of the result wanted a xenophobic end. There was no way to vote "Leave but not in a bigoted way", even though your reasons are more complicated than the binary choice given to you. Could you really trust people who were courting UKIP with any kind of exit from the EU that wasn't abhorrent and xenophobic?

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #73 on: 06 Oct 2016, 14:41 »
I've studied EU frameworks and EU law in detail. As a matter of principle I don't believe it is right that an unelected body has the power to legislate in a country at a supreme, binding level, even if such laws are 'good' law. Sure, we elect MEPs to Brussels, but (a) they do not have legislative initiative and (b) naturally the majority of the Parliament is made up of seats that you have no capacity to elect.

The EU structure is complex, but I don't see how it's more undemocratic than most national governments. The European Parliament is directly elected, the European Council consists of the leaders of each country (democratically chosen as long as the individual states remain democratic), and the other institutions consist of ministers, commissioners and judges appointed by each country or by the EU parliament. You don't have much more say than that over the details of the British government (ministerial portfolios etc.): you merely vote for a local MP (and if you're a party member and very keen, in party elections), and the rest is decided by parliament, the prime minister and her government.

And to call it undemocratic because other countries and their citizens also get a say is absurd.

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #74 on: 06 Oct 2016, 15:38 »
And to call it undemocratic because other countries and their citizens also get a say is absurd.

But that's the point, of course the European Parliament is holistically democratic, but not from the point of view of an individual country. A country's MEPs will always be in a minority, even if they were unanimously elected, and perhaps even if they form voting blocs. The difference between EU and national elections is that everything on offer in a general election is within the context of that country's range of principles and philosophies. National governments are far more democratic than the European Parliament because every citizen (in theory of course) is able to engage in and influence discourse in their country. This is impossible to do in the other countries that send MEPs.

It is undemocratic that other countries and their citizens in principle alone get a say over the laws in the UK, because I am not a citizen of those other countries, and they are not citizens of the UK!

Most votes in the Parliament are consensual, but when they are not, the UK is usually the loser: http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/uk-meps-lose-most-in-the-european-parliament/

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #75 on: 06 Oct 2016, 16:34 »
But that's the point, of course the European Parliament is holistically democratic, but not from the point of view of an individual country. A country's MEPs will always be in a minority, even if they were unanimously elected, and perhaps even if they form voting blocs. The difference between EU and national elections is that everything on offer in a general election is within the context of that country's range of principles and philosophies. National governments are far more democratic than the European Parliament because every citizen (in theory of course) is able to engage in and influence discourse in their country. This is impossible to do in the other countries that send MEPs.
That's true on any level of democracy. Regardless of what party you vote for, the majority of elected officials will be from some other party. Regardless of which district or province or city you're from, the majority of elected officials will be from somewhere else. And so forth; this is inherent in how democracy works.

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #76 on: 06 Oct 2016, 17:46 »
Regardless of what party you vote for, the majority of elected officials will be from some other party. Regardless of which district or province or city you're from, the majority of elected officials will be from somewhere else.

No, that's not true at all, at least not in a first-past-the-post system. You may vote for the Conservatives at a general election and the Conservative party may very well form a majority. The Conservatives will then legislate and vote on legislation as a majority. In fact, logically it is true to say that it is more than equally likely that an individual vote in a general election with two options is a vote for a majority government.

In the European Parliament, this scenario is always impossible, your vote will always represent a minority vote because the remaining seats are constituted of different choices.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #77 on: 06 Oct 2016, 17:52 »
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The EU will never work as long as we are consistently nationalists! Nationalists have no interest in other peoples well being, they're only worried about their own.

Reminds me of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... (also nice to finally know who said it!)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #78 on: 06 Oct 2016, 18:32 »
First they came for our cheap immigrant labour force.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #79 on: 06 Oct 2016, 20:12 »
No, that's not true at all, at least not in a first-past-the-post system. You may vote for the Conservatives at a general election and the Conservative party may very well form a majority. The Conservatives will then legislate and vote on legislation as a majority. In fact, logically it is true to say that it is more than equally likely that an individual vote in a general election with two options is a vote for a majority government.

In the European Parliament, this scenario is always impossible, your vote will always represent a minority vote because the remaining seats are constituted of different choices.

Most democratic countries have multi-party systems where no one party tends to 50% of the vote. The elections determine the proportional representation of parties in parliament, and then they have to form coalitions to secure a majority. By your logic, that's not democratic, because the party you vote for will always be a minority.

But the trade-off in two-party systems is that you're giving up the ability to make detailed policy choices with your vote, since with only two options you could very easily find yourself disagreeing with both parties on major points. (And both parties may take the same position on certain issues that you disagree with.

The whole concept of democracy is that each person only has a little bit of power, so that in order to govern you need to pool it; you have to come to agreement with other people, compromising on some points, building coalitions, etc. until you have enough support for your program. Each individual is always only a small part of the decision-making, and can always be outvoted, but that doesn't make it undemocratic.

Nor does it make it more undemocratic if the people who are outvoting you happen to be from another country, as long as they are members of the political unit you're voting for. You and people who think like you might be outvoted on some UK law even though a majority support it in your neighborhood, simply because people in London or in Scotland disagree. Similarly, you might be outvoted on an EU law because people in Germany or France disagree. Why is one thing democratic and the other not?

Your argument only makes sense if you start from the assumption that there is no way for citizens of different countries to agree on anything, and in that case... well, you're never going to come to any other conclusion than that the EU is a fundamentally flawed idea, will you?

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #80 on: 07 Oct 2016, 09:19 »
Most democratic countries have multi-party systems where no one party tends to 50% of the vote. The elections determine the proportional representation of parties in parliament, and then they have to form coalitions to secure a majority. By your logic, that's not democratic, because the party you vote for will always be a minority.

Yes, even in proportional representation there is a subtle difference between national and EU parliaments. In national parliaments, the opposition is decided by your fellow countrymen, whereas the opposition in the EU parliament is always decided by others who may very well never have set foot in your country. So:

Nor does it make it more undemocratic if the people who are outvoting you happen to be from another country, as long as they are members of the political unit you're voting for. You and people who think like you might be outvoted on some UK law even though a majority support it in your neighborhood, simply because people in London or in Scotland disagree. Similarly, you might be outvoted on an EU law because people in Germany or France disagree. Why is one thing democratic and the other not?

There is a greater, palpable chance for each citizen in a national government to participate in the government in their country. It is even possible to stand for election yourself if you wanted to. And although values differ between Labour to Conservative most major parties will always be on the ballot box in each constituency, and all parties represent the bounds of feeling in the country. So although I may not agree on a particular issue I will not feel it "unfair" if say, the SNP successfully opposes a Bill. The SNP were elected in my country by fellow citizens.

This is different with the EU because as it is another tier of democracy, the opposition is necessarily elected by a different electorate with different choices on their ballot box, which you have no way to influence, and most of the time do not even know who forms the opposition.

Now obviously I know that this is part-and-parcel of how the EU works, it could not work any other way. But as an academic judgment you must concede that from the point of view of an individual member state, the European Parliament is inherently at least more undemocratic than a national parliament; and not equally democratic, as you say.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #81 on: 07 Oct 2016, 10:00 »
This is different with the EU because as it is another tier of democracy
No, it is exactly the same, just involving more people. You're seeing "academic" differences that in practice just don't exist.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #82 on: 07 Oct 2016, 10:06 »
Again, you're arguing as if nationality is some fundamental division of humanity: everyone in a single country "belong together" while people from different countries are entirely alien to each other. That's basically to say that you have more in common politically with some BNP fascist than with a mainstream social democrat or conservative from some other country.

In reality, parties with similar ideologies from different countries find they have a lot in common, and form coherent blocs and coalitions in the European Parliament.

There is a greater, palpable chance for each citizen in a national government to participate in the government in their country. It is even possible to stand for election yourself if you wanted to.

If you want to, you can run for EU elections as well.

The bigger the political unit, the less influence each individual has, obviously. So does that mean the UK is undemocratic compared to local council elections?

And although values differ between Labour to Conservative most major parties will always be on the ballot box in each constituency, and all parties represent the bounds of feeling in the country. So although I may not agree on a particular issue I will not feel it "unfair" if say, the SNP successfully opposes a Bill. The SNP were elected in my country by fellow citizens.

And if an EU bill you support is defeated, it is defeated by delegates elected by your fellow EU citizens, representing the bounds of opinion within the EU.
(Whether or not the SNP is on the ballot in Wales, I don't suppose they have any chance of winning any constituencies there, and clearly they as a party do not represent your local interests, so the distinction is barely meaningful.)

Quote
But as an academic judgment you must concede that from the point of view of an individual member state, the European Parliament is inherently at least more undemocratic than a national parliament; and not equally democratic, as you say.

No. The whole thing is a circular argument starting from the assumption that the "nation" is the natural political unit.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #83 on: 07 Oct 2016, 10:31 »
You don't realise how bad things are until you are trying to claw your way back to a system as deeply flawed as democracy.

Now let's pretend for example that Greeks are in no way different from the English. And that diluting your vote, oh, about 28 times is an academic distinction.

If this were a democracy, intellectual dishonesty would be our leader now.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #84 on: 07 Oct 2016, 10:41 »
While the people in Britain in no way were hit with a crisis the size of the one we in Greece are (and unable to change it while still on the dreadful euro), it is very obvious that without the overall and ongoing EU crisis the british would not have voted to leave. During the Blair years the conservative party was advocating for less ties to the EU, but not outright leaving it. The disaster which followed enabled a shift in public opinion, even if it was mostly intuitive and not entirely logical in Britain.

That said, i am sure they will do fine. Democracy always wins:


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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #85 on: 07 Oct 2016, 10:53 »
Jack, a vote isn't diluted - it either affects a larger area but is shared with more people, or it covers less and needs to be shared less.

I think Snarky explained this quite well.

Edit:
On a related note, the British pound took a real dive this morning.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #86 on: 07 Oct 2016, 10:56 »
No. The whole thing is a circular argument starting from the assumption that the "nation" is the natural political unit.
Precisely.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #87 on: 07 Oct 2016, 11:06 »
it is very obvious that without the overall and ongoing EU crisis the british would not have voted to leave.
People here have been wanting to leave the EU since as far back as I can remember. Which means at least the early 2000's.
As a matter of fact, I think it's only the younger people who didn't want to (or didn't care if we) leave.

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #88 on: 07 Oct 2016, 12:05 »
After thinking about it I admit I'm wrong in a political context, but if we begin looking at the EU through the prism of its legislative abilities, I am not so sure.

The bigger the political unit, the less influence each individual has, obviously. So does that mean the UK is undemocratic compared to local council elections?

I feel this is a false analogy for the EU: local councils set policy and bye-laws at a local level; national governments legislate at the national level; and the EU also legislates at a (supra) national level. For all intents and purposes, EU law is one and the same with national law in the sense that both are incorporated with at least equal status in a member state's legal system (and even then, EU law is always supreme in cases of conflict with national law).

So if we accept that laws have the potential to bind a nation even if 100% of the electorate elected MEPs who unanimously opposed it, then yes it is more undemocratic than a national parliament. In a national parliament, 100% of the electorate electing MPs who unanimously opposed a Bill would not result in a law being enacted in the country. Because national law and EU law have the same binding status, this is where the subtle distinction can be drawn between the two parliaments. In this sense, it is fair to talk about the nation as the natural political unit, because we are looking through the frame of national law.

I admit I'm not talking anywhere near practically, hence I only mentioned voting blocs and coalitions briefly. But on an academic and theoretical level I take objection to the idea that the European Parliament is equally democratic to a national parliament, when the former legislates at a level that is ostensibly national law, yet the decision is influenced by 27 other countries. The point being that in theory at least your view always has the potential to be in a minority in the European Parliament, but in the national parliament it is not capped at a statistical minority. Both systems have the same practical effect (legislation at a national level), so in theory the legislative function of the European Parliament is more undemocratic than a national parliament's.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #89 on: 07 Oct 2016, 12:15 »
it is very obvious that without the overall and ongoing EU crisis the british would not have voted to leave.
People here have been wanting to leave the EU since as far back as I can remember. Which means at least the early 2000's.
As a matter of fact, I think it's only the younger people who didn't want to (or didn't care if we) leave.

Maybe, although back in the same period i was studying in England (graduated from a university there, uni of Essex) and there was no debate to fully leave the EU. Maybe it started briefly afterwards, but surely post 2007 it became a lot worse, in parallel to the farcical state of the "union" (european, not kingdomian := )

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #90 on: 07 Oct 2016, 12:27 »
Jack, a vote isn't diluted - it either affects a larger area but is shared with more people, or it covers less and needs to be shared less.

A larger jurisdiction does not in any way justify a more diluted vote (shared with more people), which is beside the fact it totally disregards the cultural differences of the various peoples of europe.

The fact that this very same megalogovernment is secretly planning to hand over complete legislative control to multinational corporations is so unorthodox that it cannot even be considered.

Shall we dream instead about all those lives we can touch with our token votes?

EDIT: I want to clarify Andail that I recognise that you don't necessarily support one view or the other. I'm just saying that it's a really bad trade-off.
« Last Edit: 07 Oct 2016, 12:47 by Jack »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #91 on: 07 Oct 2016, 12:57 »
I'm shocked and bewildered to discover that Brexiteers aren't now pushing for the dissolution of the unelected House of Lords, an independent Scotland and Wales and a united Ireland.

After all, it's national democracy that really matters to them, not jingoism, bigotry and a general sense that everything was better in the 50s.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #92 on: 07 Oct 2016, 14:32 »
I'm shocked and bewildered to discover that Brexiteers aren't now pushing for the dissolution of the unelected House of Lords, an independent Scotland and Wales and a united Ireland.

After all, it's national democracy that really matters to them, not jingoism, bigotry and a general sense that everything was better in the 50s.

I've been trying to find a way to write that all day, and I'm glad you said it before me, Ali.

It's like, Scotland voted quite strongly to remain in the EU. I think it's kind of hypocritical that we be forced out of it because some English people really wanted to destroy connections with the EU because they thought it wasn't democratic enough. After all, we didn't want it, but THEY voted for it. The only response I've seen from Brexiters though is "you're just sore losers, nyeh nyeh we won #MakeBritainGreatAgain" which is like ?????? We have major concerns over the competency of our government and the reasons for their decisions??

It is about jingoism though, there is no doubt about it.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #93 on: 07 Oct 2016, 15:37 »
I'm shocked and bewildered to discover that Brexiteers aren't now pushing for the dissolution of the unelected House of Lords, an independent Scotland and Wales and a united Ireland.

After all, it's national democracy that really matters to them, not jingoism, bigotry and a general sense that everything was better in the 50s.

I've stayed out of this thread till now because it seems to be a bit of an echo chamber, but I can't let this slide.

What you present, the idea that separate nations are better than international unions, is really justifiable. I supported the recent Scottish independence referendum AND Brexit for this reason. Power becomes centralised very easily, but doesn't readily flow the other way. A future where lots of tiny separate nations compete is a future I'd like to live in. A future with one central power (the end game for international politico-economic unions) is a dystopia to me.

There's a balance to be struck between international power and what can be practically governed. The EU is too big and too diverse, with really undemocratic ways of passing laws. It was a boon initially for the poorer nations, but it's a mess now. Germany is holding the whole thing together -- the only country left in Europe that actually produces things people want.

I know I'm not European, but I feel the break-up of the EU is a global issue.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #94 on: 07 Oct 2016, 18:59 »
It's like, Scotland voted quite strongly to remain in the EU. I think it's kind of hypocritical that we be forced out of it because some English people really wanted to destroy connections with the EU because they thought it wasn't democratic enough. After all, we didn't want it, but THEY voted for it.

It's almost like... the two nations kind of want different things... and being politically lumped together doesn't work... or... maybe I think I'm craving corn chips.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #95 on: 07 Oct 2016, 19:25 »
A future where lots of tiny separate nations compete is a future I'd like to live in.

A pretty good description of Europe's past, isn't it? Don't know if I should put this in spoiler tags, but... it didn't end well. ;)

Yes, the EU has many flaws and it's not fully democratic. For example, the European parliament, the only real democratic institution of the EU, only has limited legislative power. But we Europeans can still be glad and thankful that we live in Europe's most peaceful era in centuries. The EU is a very good idea, and history tells us why nationalism is not the way to go. Instead of leaving the EU or breaking up, we should try to improve it and make it more democratic than it is now. It was never easy, and reforming this beast would be a huge task, but we would be absolutely crazy if we just gave up everything that has been achieved after WW2.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #96 on: 07 Oct 2016, 19:34 »
It's almost like... the two nations kind of want different things... and being politically lumped together doesn't work... or... maybe I think I'm craving corn chips.

By that logic, the north of England should definitely be a different country to the south of England. And London should be a separate city state. And... where does it end?

None of the British voices advocating for Brexit support Scottish Independence. I can accept an objection on principle to unions between nations - but that's not what fuelled the Brexit vote. It also wasn't, as some of my Greek friends hoped, an attack on the EU for its inhumanity in dealing with the refugee crisis. We wanted out of the EU so we could treat refugees and migrants even worse.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #97 on: 07 Oct 2016, 19:54 »
A pretty good description of Europe's past, isn't it? Don't know if I should put this in spoiler tags, but... it didn't end well. ;)

You mean the fact you eventually ended up under an imp like van rompuy? ;)

Not sure which period in history you're referring to, but technology has changed this planet by orders of magnitude since then. I don't mean it's changed people, but what's possible in terms of government and collaboration currently is unprecedented in known history. In terms of what we could do now, it's kind of unthinkable to still be tethered to the sinking apathy-based political system which currently infects most cultures.

EDIT:

By that logic, the north of England should definitely be a different country to the south of England. And London should be a separate city state. And... where does it end?

It ends wherever you think it should end. What if you could find the exact legislation you agreed with by moving to the appropriate state? Be it a city state, smaller or larger. Moronia will still be a huge country, for anyone who wants numbers.
« Last Edit: 07 Oct 2016, 20:01 by Jack »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #98 on: 07 Oct 2016, 20:28 »
Quote
I know I'm not European, but I feel the break-up of the EU is a global issue.
Hmmm, now that you mention it Gurok does kind of sound like a Klingon name. (laugh)

IMHO, if a process results in oppression and loss of personal liberty then, yes, it's not democratic. The EU parliament seems to me to be little more that than a communist socialist politburo.

The only way a large top-down government such as the EU can work if there is one top boss running everything.  And even then a king or a starship would have to stop by once in a while to get "their cut".

I also think it's naive and bigoted to believe that people from all cultures can peacefully and harmoniously co-exist in close proximity within the same neighborhood (mass raping for example).  There is an underlying presumption, in this belief, that one's own culture is the gold standard of morality and that all human beings aspire to that standard.  It may be subtle but it's bigotry all the same.  Hypocritically those who hold such beliefs dear are often the first and loudest to cry "RACIST!!!" when opposing opinions are presented.


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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #99 on: 07 Oct 2016, 21:13 »
The EU parliament seems to me to be little more that than a communist socialist politburo.
You're probably confusing it with the European commission. The European parliament is just that: a parliament, directly elected, but one that hasn't all the rights a parliament usually has in a democracy. It doesn't even have legislative initiative (the right to propose a new law). If the parliament played a more important role, the European election would actually mean something. But as it is now, most people don't see the point in voting, because in the end it doesn't affect the decisions that are made. That's the major flaw in how the EU is constructed, if you ask me. However, these structures have grown historically, and what is now the EU originally started as an economic community, not a political one. This makes it difficult to reform.

But if you're talking about oppression and a loss of personal liberty: The EU guarantees free movement of people, services etc. across its member states. As a EU citizen I can travel, study, work and do business freely in any other EU country, and by leaving the EU these liberties are lost. People tend to take these things for granted, as if the EU was only there to annoy people with regulations. If Great Britain still wants access to the common market, they will have to follow EU rules anyway. But at the same time they are about lose many of these rights. I fail to see in which way this results in more freedom. But sometimes you only realize what you had when you lose it. It's both funny and bitter how "What is the EU" trended on Google... the day after the referendum.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #100 on: 07 Oct 2016, 21:15 »
IMHO, if a process results in oppression and loss of personal liberty then, yes, it's not democratic. The EU parliament seems to me to be little more that than a communist socialist politburo.

The only way a large top-down government such as the EU can work if there is one top boss running everything.

Hmmm. Vague generalizations, stereotypes and purely theoretical suppositions that show no indication of being based on even the most glancing familiarity with EU politics... Oh, right:

Since I don't live there I can only tell you my opinion based on the US news reports.

You know, you don't HAVE to.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #101 on: 07 Oct 2016, 22:16 »
Quote
It doesn't even have legislative initiative (the right to propose a new law).
As I understand it unaccountable bureaucrats propose new law that automatically takes affect unless voted down by a certain % majority of parliament.  The parliament is just a facade as is the politburo.


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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #102 on: 07 Oct 2016, 23:32 »
If you use a term like this, you should probably look it up first. The European parliament is elected directly (unlike the politburo in a communist party), but it doesn't have much power (again: unlike a politburo, which usually had a lot of power in communist states). So you're just mixing things up that have nothing to do with each other. I understand it's popular to compare institutions one doesn't like with communists (or nazis). But that shows a lack of understanding what this actually is. We had communist states in Europe, one half of Germany was communist until 1989, and I can confirm that the EU is nothing like that. And it makes me angry if people use this term without having a clue what it actually means.
(And yes, it's no surprise that communists in Europe are mostly against the EU in its current form.)

Enough ranting. Of course all that doesn't mean your criticism of the EU is invalid - but it's simplified, because the parliament has a lot more rights than that, and with every new treaty its power has grown. Still a long way to go, because the whole process is overly complicated and not democratic enough. But no system is perfect, and everything can be improved. And as I said in my previous post, the EU actually guarantees its citizens many liberties that are not to be taken for granted. And don't forget that the member states all have their own constitutions, some more and some less democratic, and they are are much more independent in their laws and decisions than the states in the USA for example. That big goverment that takes away our rights, rules everything and kills our national independence - it doesn't exist. People who argue like that make the EU institutions much more powerful than they actually are. The EU is far from being a real government. We have an economic union, but we're still far away from having a political union.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #103 on: 08 Oct 2016, 00:31 »
The similarity I see is that a small group of unaccountable people run things as they see fit.  A faux legislative body, with very little power, is used to legitimize actions as "the will of the people".  I'm unaware of a communist leader who is/was actually beholden to an independent politburo whose members didn't have "a hand in the til".

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #104 on: 08 Oct 2016, 05:12 »
Okay, let's look at it the other way around. Are there any laws that the EU has passed that justify a full exit from the EU that are worth:

  • Tanking our currency to never before seen lows.
  • Cutting off all free trade between us and Europe. (combined with our weakened currency, prepare to see basic necessities skyrocket in price)
  • Cutting off free movement between us and Europe (even though we have a lot of british nationals living in other countries - more than all the other countries have in the UK)
  • Our government classifying and deporting families from the UK for being not British nationals, potentially sending them to die in other countries, and letting children suffer for it.
  • Our government wanting to deport foreign workers like doctors without having a suitable pipeline for creating new British doctors?
  • The fivefold rise in hate crime against people seen as non-British.
  • The lack of an exit strategy by the government, which is currently salivating over deportations rather than striking trade deals with people.
  • The leave campaign's absolute focus on fucking immigrants.

Are there any laws that have been passed that are that bad? Any particular law? Or is it just the principle of the thing?

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #105 on: 08 Oct 2016, 05:45 »
Anyone else get that sense of impending doom? What a mess. It's got to be that UK government knows something more than they are telling us. The only way I can think this whole referendum and brexit fiasco is being allowed to happen is because something bad is coming and this is all some kind of damage limitation measure for whatever that something is.

Why on earth else would this be going ahead? My mind is going round in circles about it.

Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #106 on: 08 Oct 2016, 10:06 »
Something that worries me about Brexit is that it's toted as "the will of the people", but from what I've seen on the news, not only was there an exceptionally low participation rate in the voting, many people have come forth and said that they weren't sure about the consequences of what they were voting on and have since changed their mind. I wonder how the results would be if another vote on Brexit was held today.

At the same time, I can see what some of the criticism of EU comes from, since it wasn't originally constructed to be a union for all of Europe. EU started off as the European Coal and Steel Community after WWII, and its main purpose was to prevent another war between France and Germany by making West Germany and France share their market for steel and coal. Europe also looked different then, with the cold war and iron curtain and people wanted to stand united against the eastern bloc.

Now however, many more and different countries are part of the EU, and most of them have very different socio-economic systems from one another, and what might be beneficial to some of them have been detrimental to others. One such example is environmental and health-regulations on food and agriculture. EU have imposed restrictions that prevent the use of some dangerous pesticides, which have been an improvement for many former soviet-states, but at the same time, the same regulations have led to many previous forbidden pesticides and substances being made legal in the Scandinavian countries, which before entering into EU had much stricter regulations on such things.

And I think all can agree on that switching to Euro haven't worked out too well for Greece.


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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #107 on: 08 Oct 2016, 12:01 »
It isn't a union by now. It likely was doomed by the massive expansion (at 2003 iirc?). It only allowed Germany to have a host of vassal or client states, and less than 5 years later the crisis started in earnest, recall how Germany (at least officially) triggered it by refusing other choices like a small inflation with the euro which would have erased public debt.
I am not seeing the EU lasting long, although there may be some other event shadowing it, eg some massive war. Either way, it obviously is not a union of prosperity, but of ruining other member countries for the benefit of a few oligarchs.

As i noted, this isn't why the british voted to leave. It was more of an undercurrent- but an important one- to their decision which probably was more intuitive anyway, given they were obviously not hit hard by the actual euro crisis, when compared to other countries.
« Last Edit: 08 Oct 2016, 12:04 by KyriakosCH »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #108 on: 09 Oct 2016, 01:11 »
Anyone else get that sense of impending doom? What a mess. It's got to be that UK government knows something more than they are telling us. The only way I can think this whole referendum and brexit fiasco is being allowed to happen is because something bad is coming and this is all some kind of damage limitation measure for whatever that something is.

Why on earth else would this be going ahead? My mind is going round in circles about it.

Yes! This was my thought. I naturally assumed that Britain was quietly excusing itself from the upcoming TTIP and ISDS, not saying anything concerning their true motives so as to ensure they can make good on their escape without anyone stampeding the exit. But, who knows.

To be honest, stay or go, I don't think it's going to help save the UK. Most of the world has set itself on a path with reliance on careless debt consumption, and that is not being addressed. If you want to talk about unelected policy makers...

EDIT: Critical distinction
« Last Edit: 09 Oct 2016, 01:58 by Jack »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #109 on: 09 Oct 2016, 11:08 »
Anyone else get that sense of impending doom? What a mess. It's got to be that UK government knows something more than they are telling us. The only way I can think this whole referendum and brexit fiasco is being allowed to happen is because something bad is coming and this is all some kind of damage limitation measure for whatever that something is.

Why on earth else would this be going ahead? My mind is going round in circles about it.

Yes! This was my thought. I naturally assumed that Britain was quietly excusing itself from the upcoming TTIP and ISDS, not saying anything concerning their true motives so as to ensure they can make good on their escape without anyone stampeding the exit.

(laugh) (laugh) (roll)