GTD: What's wrong with adventure games?

Started by Bionic Bill, Sat 09/08/2003 16:54:50

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Bionic Bill

Game Theory Discussion

Well, Mittens is over, so I'm taking it upon myself to get this discussion thing going. Some of you may vaguely recall a post about this a few weeks ago, and today it begins.

This weeks spine-tingling question: What is wrong with adventure games?

I think this a good healthy question to ask, especially among adventure game designers. So, go ahead, let it out. What grates on your conscience daily, gets underneath your fingernails, and scratches on the proverbial blackboard of your mind?

Ground rules:
Post one thing that you think is flawed about the adventure game genre as a whole, or at least how the adventure game is usually designed. Don't worry if it's a basic component of adventure games, be as critical as you like.
If someone has posted something you disagree with or think MUST have clarification in order to make sense, then make one cogent post addressing that poster. To this the original poster can of course respond, but try not to draw out a conversation, because it could result in multiple confusing conversations occurring at the same time in the thread.

Example:

Puzzles

Puzzles, as they are implemented in most adventure games, can, I think, detract from the experience of a game.

I think the most painful flaw in design is, whether or not it is the designer's intention, the narrative of the game seems to be used as the means by which the player reaches the puzzles. In other words, the puzzles don't lend relevance to the narrative, but the narrative lends relevance to the puzzles. The adventure game can sometimes be tetris, but with context. This is fine sometimes, tetris with context can be fun. But when a game is attempting to have fleshed-out characters and a developed storyline(something the adventure game genre in particular allows for), the puzzles can take away from that.

1. The inclusion of "boot-strapping" scenes, or mundane activity can, I think, increase immersion. The character you are playing actually has to walk over there and talk to that guy, and then walk way over there. There are puzzles which amount to boot-strapping, especially near the beginning of games. You have to find Jake McUrks keys in Pleurghburg, or fix the elevator in The Uncertainty Machine. I recall distinctly, and it might just be me here, saying, "Why am I doing this?" Why don't we get up and find Jake's shoes and socks, and why don't we help Susan fix her electric toothbrush? The point I'm nearly making is that puzzle-making is a selective process, and not everything can be a puzzle, despite the bit of boot-strapping that must make it into adventure games. What we choose to be a puzzle is important, and we should have a good reason for choosing what we do. When a puzzle is completed that neither reveals character nor furthers the plot, the narrative remains disconnected from the puzzle aspects of the game.

2. The other way puzzles take away from games can be warped logic where it doesn't fit. This is expounded quite well in this old man murray article. The Longest Journey comes to my mind, where you need a key to get in a fuse box, so you put bread down on a metal grate so a bird flies off, and pull up this chain which releases a rubber ducky, and eventually you put three or four unrelated items together to gain something that somehow makes a contraption that will retrieve the key that is inexplicably laying on a subway track. It is all very disconcerting and takes you out of the narrative into The Incredible Machine(the video game from years back). Even working this out without a walkthrough, I was left thinking "WHAT!?" but my adventure gamer instincts helped me to try everything, despite it making sense. I went to a walkthrough after that puzzle.

Okay, the example is my contribution to discussion. Someone would reply saying,

Bionic Bill: You are full of poopy, and nobody likes you.

If you want to add to someone's point, that's allowed too.
And I'll probably change general rules if things go terribly this time. PM me with better ways to run discussion. I'm not a mod, so I can't do anything about people breaking the rules, except calling their mother.

Next week: Prescription! What do we need to do to improve the adventure game?

DGMacphee

I agree with the puzzles aspect -- a lot of the time puzzles don't contribute greatly to the advancement of the narrative and thus feel tacked-on.

However, my biggest problem is the generic plots used in adventures.

Most of the time it's a bog-standard Monkey Island clone/stop the evil scientist/game set in the future/detective game.

What about stories with difference?

Forexample, I dug Full Throttle because the story and characters (especially the Uber-Protagonist) were different to standard game rip-off and numerous Sierra sequels.

Tim Schafer once described in a magazine the difference between Bernard (DOTT) and Ben (FT) -- Bernard would have to unlock a door using a sandwich by taking apart the beard putting it under the door while using the toothpicks holding the sandwich together to push the key out onto the bread slice (like the old newspaper trick).

Ben, on the other had, would eat the sandwich and then kick the door down.

Thus, an orignal narrative give an original set of puzzles too.
ABRACADABRA YOUR SPELLS ARE OKAY

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"Ah, look! I've just shat a rainbow." - Yakspit

Ginny

BB: about the puzzle in TLJ, it actually made sense to me, because you use the ducky, the clamp, and the chain thing to create a hook, and "fish out" the key. The key was dropped there. It all depends on what you see as logical, sometimes in games it's fun to have a bit of illogical puzzles. A game would be boring if everything was totally logical, for example a key would always be sused on a door, and to cut a piece of paper for example. IMO, it's more interesting when the objects you use are not used how you would excpect to use them, but instead in an origianl way. This can also include things that would sometimes seem illogical. That's why providing hints is important, to make the player see the logic in things, or give him an idea. Grim Fandango is a great example of this.

DGM: I agree, that's one of the biggest thing that bother me too. I like original ideas, like GF for example (how do I always bring it up? ;)).
TLJ was original too, because it took the cliche story of saving the world(s) etc, and turned it into something origianl and interesting, with a huge nackstory. This is also important, to have a lot of details about the story (the exception would be in a humourous game, but even in a game like MI it's important to know details and backstory, even if the player doesn't get to know them). If the designers have a lot of details worked out, they feel much more natural when

When it comes to AGS games, what is most noticeable is the lack of animations, interesting non generic story and good characters, and sound effects IMO. There are of course games that have all these, but generally I think many games lack this.

Aniamtions are hard to do and many games don't have many animations except for walking talking and a few more. A great excpetion to this is Apprentice, with the best animations I've seen in an AGS game, on the level of old LucasArts games like MI. What I've seen of FoY, it will be on that level too.
I think having things moving in the background is important too, otherwise the game may seem static at times.

The story can be generic and cliche if it's altered and implememnted in a good way. Like I mentioned TLJ. Apprentice also has a story which could be considered cliche, but the humor which is used makes the story unusual, special, and engrossing even in being based on humor.
If making a humourous game, the humour should be in good taste, and in context.
Sound effects I mentioned, as an addition to animation, sound effects are great for immersion and making the game not static. Once again I bring Apprentice as an example, because it did these thing so well.

But enough about AGS games, let's talk commercial. :P

Puzzles can be a problem yes, because sometimes they are brought as a standalone, when they should be intergrated entirely into the plot. They are the means, not the end.

Both in AGS and commercial games, characters aren't always done very well. It doesn't matter if it's humourous, serious, or somewhere in between, it's important to have characters with an intereting personality, preferably with some special twist to it. Character devlopment is also nice, though not neccessary IMO.

Umm, in cemmercial games, I'd like to see better voice acting, which is ussually not great. TLJ and GF have splendid voice acting for example. Though some would disagree, I'd also like to see voice acting in AGS games more, though I know it can be hard, since it's important that it's good. If it is good though, it adds so much IMO. Plus, I find myself reading the text and missing the talking animation, with voices I can look at the animation instead. Also, talking animations should be made more interesting than just moving the mouth, it should have something more to it, like head movements and hands possible. Or like Stan in MI, who moved his whole body while speaking. It added a whole lot of personality to him.

(Is this some sort of official discussion always started after Mittens, each time a new topic?)

That's about all for now... :)
Try Not to Breathe - coming sooner or later!

We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later, we push up flowers. - Membrillo, Grim Fandango coroner

Riot

I'd like to continue on the puzzles. Now, we often contemplate around the ideas of more innovative games. DG brought it up and I can't do nothing but agree. How can we play for instance an emotional conflict? These things are often included as something besides the goal for the protagonist, as a way to affect HOW he/she reaches his/her goal. A goal which is based around the idea of 'accomplish something specific' (through puzzle solving). I've fooled around with the idea when reading books which have great stories, if one could make an adventure game out of it, but I always stump on one specific thing: how to play it, how to do the gameplay.

The way an adventure game is played limits the way we can tell them. Just as Bill starts out, puzzle design is a crucial part of an adventure, and how can we make them have any relevance. I am planning a rather unusual game in which I have no idea how to make a descent puzzle. It's rather a story without "must do this and must do that", based on certain things the protagonist will experience.

Now, there's puzzles and there's "must do's". Must do's are actions that you must carry out for the story to continue. Puzzles are challenges for the mind (how can I accomplish this/aquire that/whatever). How woul,d you feel about a game that only consists of "must do's", or perhaps sometimes not even that, but timed events carried out by NPC:s which of you have no control over. The actual GAMEPLAY is reduced, so it's perhaps not more than an interactive story of you can affect the way the plot will evolve. Is the puzzles the adventure GAMEPLAY, or is it also experiencing the story?

Barcik

#4
I very much dislike the handling of the character's inventory. Often, a the player character picks up some seemingly random item, only to find a use for it later. It's as if the character knows of the challenge ahead. It just doesn't make any sense. There are many examples, although none spring to mind at the moment.

DG, I believe we are discussing the shortcomings of the genre as a whole, not of specific games. Yes, some use cliche stories. But this is not the problem of the genre, but the problem of individual adventure games.

I'll probably think of some more later.
Currently Working On: Monkey Island 1.5

Goldmund

The interface.
I mean, it's so stupid!
I click "use" on a furnace and I have no idea whether the protagonist will open it, push it, sit on it, piss on it, try to eat it...
Of course, there are GUIs with more detailed actions, but still it's nothing compared to the Richness of Interactive Fiction. In IF you really have to think, not just click everywhere with every item from your inventory.
The solution could lie in the text input, like it was done in Police Quest II, but then we would need a better parser, something along the lines of TADS combined with AGS.

Another thing is combining inventory items, which I find ridiculous mostly because I usually have no idea what the protagonist is trying to build.
NO, dear Longest-Journey-designers, the player didn't use clamp on the duck as a result of 5-hour brain-storming and planning, it just happened during the act of every-clicking-on-everything-with-everything-of-my-inventory, Ma!
Again, text parser to the rescue.

I'm starting to think fondly about graphic adventures with text parser mostly because TADS and HUGO proved that a flexible parser with which you don't need to "guess verb" is possible. And as it IS easier to become involved when some nifty graphics are on the screen, the combination seems perfect... hm?

DGMacphee

#6
QuoteDG, I believe we are discussing the shortcomings of the genre as a whole, not of specific games. Yes, some use cliche stories. But this is not the problem of the genre, but the problem of individual adventure games.

Um, I am talking about the genre as a whole, ijit!

Most adventure games used tired cliches.

It IS a problem with the genre because developers (commercial AND indie) rely upon it too much.

So stick that up your bumcrack and fart it!  ;D

ABRACADABRA YOUR SPELLS ARE OKAY

DGMacphee Designs - http://www.sylpher.com/DGMacphee/
AGS Awards - http://www.sylpher.com/AGSAwards/

Instagame - http://www.sylpher.com/ig/
"Ah, look! I've just shat a rainbow." - Yakspit

Las Naranjas

That's very true. Even the best written games would still be crumby paperbacks if they were turned into Novels. This is actually brought out in reality with GK.
Narratively, there is incredibly little creativity in games as a whole and generally, were you to transfer the plot and writing of any game to another medium, it would be downright atrocious.
"I'm a moron" - LGM
http://sylpher.com/novomestro
Your resident Novocastrian.

edmundito

There's also the whole linearlity aspect. Most adventure games are quite linear, where in order to solve a puzzle (well, maybe we can blame puzzles again) you have to get a specific object and then do this and that. sure, you can do the main puzzles in any order, like say the three trials in monkey island, but in the end you're going to end up doing pretty much the same sequence of things in order to complete the puzzle when you replay the game. If you're playing other genres, say...  warcraft, you have to complete a certain quiest, but the way you build the units and strategize is totally different each time you play it. you can try several things, specially if you've improved.

Maybe adventure games lack a degree of skill too... like for example, take the console adventure game (that's what they classify it as) Splinter Cell. You have to have some skill to climb walls, walk slowly, and stuff, but mainly you have to move around in the dark and sneak around, and you still have a lot of freedom to what you can do. Yeah, I guess this would be kind of hard to do in 2d, but 3d is the mainstream now, so there are new directions.

And back to linearity, definitely adventure games are too linear. the game ends the same way you play every time, although there are some exceptions. For example you have Maniac Mansion where if you did different things you got totally different endings, which I won't go in detail so I won't spoil anyone. My roomate was just playing Riven (the slide show advneture game, you know?) and he was showing me all the different endings you could run into...

Definitely things adventure games should not have is clicking in the wrong place and then daying. there is not fun in that; that's just torture. Dying is ok in the case you're in some sword fight or gun battle, but other than that I hate the "you walked off the cliff; you die."  This is like having a car racing game and when you hint one of the bumps you go out and blow up and lose the whole championship. that would suck.

Ultimately, I think I'm getting to the point that adventure games should be more free than ever, and not so rigid and linear. Oh, and also double clicking and running is pretty cool, you need some of that as well! :)
The Tween Module now supports AGS 3.6.0!

edmundito

Quote from: Goldmund on Sun 10/08/2003 00:59:00
The interface.
I mean, it's so stupid!
I click "use" on a furnace and I have no idea whether the protagonist will open it, push it, sit on it, piss on it, try to eat it...
Of course, there are GUIs with more detailed actions, but still it's nothing compared to the Richness of Interactive Fiction. In IF you really have to think, not just click everywhere with every item from your inventory.
The solution could lie in the text input, like it was done in Police Quest II, but then we would need a better parser, something along the lines of TADS combined with AGS.

Another thing is combining inventory items, which I find ridiculous mostly because I usually have no idea what the protagonist is trying to build.
NO, dear Longest-Journey-designers, the player didn't use clamp on the duck as a result of 5-hour brain-storming and planning, it just happened during the act of every-clicking-on-everything-with-everything-of-my-inventory, Ma!
Again, text parser to the rescue.

I'm starting to think fondly about graphic adventures with text parser mostly because TADS and HUGO proved that a flexible parser with which you don't need to "guess verb" is possible. And as it IS easier to become involved when some nifty graphics are on the screen, the combination seems perfect... hm?

I thought about it, and I think I have this fun little idea.. there's three cursor modes, walk, action, and inventory. when you do action a text box appears and you can type the action you want like look, open, close, pick up, look at,  use, push, pull... and so on.
The Tween Module now supports AGS 3.6.0!

MachineElf

I don't think back-to-parser will help get adventure games anywhere. Of course I say this from the perspective of not having been very fond of the old Infocom games, probably because my english 10 years ago wasn't what it is today...
However, I think an interface have to be more transparent to be appealing (you shouldn't feel you're using an interface, rather you should feel you're manipulating the game world). It has to be more integrated with the game world. Also I think in terms of intuitivity. Is a parser intuitive? I guess it is for someone used to parsers, for me it's not. However, it's probably possible to make a good half-parser interface, but then you get the problem of having to switch between keyboard and mouse all the time.
I don't know what the perfect interface would be... I'm thinking something in the line of Broken Sword combined with the verb coin. For a game I'm currently trying to write a story for I think I'll use an interface where left mouse click is walk and look and right mouse click performs a standard action for the particular object (take, use etc). However, holding the right mouse would bring up a small menu of other verbs, all relevant to that particular object.

About items and puzzle... I think puzzles and item combination should be "liberal", so that any decently logical solution to the problem is possible, maybe with slightly different results. I think many RPGs does this pretty good, with different solutions to many problems (or you just don't care about the problem). This would probably require beta testers with good feedback as the designer just can't think of all the possible ways of solving that particular puzzle.
It's kinda like in that Indy film where there's a guy waving his swords in front of Indy and instead of fighting him he just draws his revolver and shoot him. The director (mr Lucas I presume) didn't think of this, rather mr Ford just did it as a joke after being tired of reshooting the fight scene.
Another, more adventure game related, example: There's a locked door, but you can see the key is in the keyhole. Hmm... Better find a newspaper and something pointy to do that old trick. In this case it should work with a screwdriver or a pocket knife or another key. On the other hand you've got that crowbar, so why bother?
I guess this is harder to implement on 'use inventory on inventory' puzzles though.

I haven't played Black & White, but from what I've heard the interface in it is pretty inventive.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.

edmundito

#11
well, the parser thing was just a thought... yeah, back in the 90s I had no clue how to play LSL other than typing open door because I barely knew anything about the english language.

About the interface being invisble... well it really depends on what you want to accomplish. The closest cousins to adventure games such as RPGs or even RTS (well, they have similar point+click interfaces) or even god sims (except for black and white) have a very visible interface; after all, you're just playing a game. You'll always have a visible interface, because sometime you're going to have to access the inventory or save your game, or change the sound volume, so there's no reason why to hide it as long as it's not intrusive.

So, from what I'm reading so far puzzles need to be less dumb and pointless, and a lot less rigid and more flexible. With this flexiblity, tho, there's the chance of going back to the old adventure games. for example, on King's quest 1 you have to find the three lost items, but that's really all you know. then you have to walk around and find out where they are, and you're totally clueless of what to do, therefore losing your attention span. Yeah, I haven't finished King's Quest I mainly because I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. With zak mckracken and maniac mansion it was the similar style because you could basicly go anywhere and do stuff. Of course, this has changed over the years but to a super-rigid linear style that still has the same old I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing style here and there. So maybe players need more direction on what to do,... but that's all I've got. I have no idea how to accomplish this without making the game too stupid.

Maybe we should start working on some set of general rules we can use for future adventure games; we could call it something like "the adventure game code" (idea stolen from the comic book code :P)
The Tween Module now supports AGS 3.6.0!

Ginny

#12
Vartgrass: I've had and played B&W for more than year now, aswell as the expansion pack, and the interface is indeed inventive, though I dunno how it would suit adventure games. You use the mouse to change your view and location, but not in the way you would expect. It takes some getting used to. You are 'the hand of god' and you drag your way around, or double click to get somewhere directly, and use the wheel or Ctrl+up arrow/down arrow to zoom in and out. Personally I really like holding down the wheel and moving the mouse, which allows me to trun, pan, and zoom altogether, finding the best view. This wouldn't work very well in a 3rd person perspective adventure though. It might work well in a 1st person, with some altering of course.
There is more to the interface of course, the physics of the B&W world are amazingly accurate and when you throw a rock for example, how quickly, how hard, and in what direction you throw it directly affect wherer it will hit. How hard it hits affects the object that it hits. There were some things that you could call puzzles in B&W, like finding a person or a stone you needed, but these aren't at all like adventure game puzzles.
If BW were and AG, it would be incredibly non-linear, since you can basically choose to do anything in each situation, and what you choose afects your alignment and thus the game (though the end of the game isn't affected. Just the means you use to get there ;)). What I liked most about the game was teaching the creature and growing it to be a useful "pet" which helps with your quests.

If such strong non-linearity and change, plus different possible endings, were to be implemented in a game, this would produch great results IMO, and great replayability.

Yes, linearity is sometimes a problem, which is why I think there should not only be several puzzles to solve at the same time, but also different solutions to puzzles, and these solutions should not just give alternatives, they should change things later in the course of the game.
Sometimes though, it's fun to play a quite linear, simple game, but the truly great games are the ones which focus on story and use the puzzles to advance it.
Let's not be too harsh on the puzzles though, I find them to sometimes be the best part of the game, what really makes i interactive and more interesting.

About  wether they are the Gameplay or part of the story, I think they should be the story, but very often become solely the gameplay, which is when they feel unnatural and disconnected.

DGM: Lol about Ben and Bernard! :)

Quote from: netmonkey on Sun 10/08/2003 18:47:25So, from what I'm reading so far puzzles need to be less dumb and pointless, and a lot less rigid and more flexible. With this flexiblity, tho, there's the chance of going back to the old adventure games. for example, on King's quest 1 you have to find the three lost items, but that's really all you know. then you have to walk around and find out where they are, and you're totally clueless of what to do, therefore losing your attention span. Yeah, I haven't finished King's Quest I mainly because I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. With zak mckracken and maniac mansion it was the similar style because you could basicly go anywhere and do stuff. Of course, this has changed over the years but to a super-rigid linear style that still has the same old I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing style here and there. So maybe players need more direction on what to do,... but that's all I've got. I have no idea how to accomplish this without making the game too stupid.

Maybe we should start working on some set of general rules we can use for future adventure games; we could call it something like "the adventure game code" (idea stolen from the comic book code :P)

Good idea about the game code, seriously. It could be a great sort of guide/tutorial on making games. It should be very deatiled and extensive though, so it would take a lot of work,

About flexibilty: Yes, it's important to have flexibilty but also to make sure the player knows what to do. This can be accomplished I think, by letting the player find out the problem, and providing him with several ways of solving it.

About the visible interface: In BW there is no visible interface as I already mentioned, but as I said it isn't exactly good for AG's.

Your forgetting one great pure AG with no visible interface though: Grim Fandango :)
You move with the keyboard and your inventory is your jacket. You pick things up and you hold them in your hand when you use them. The only interface in that game is the menu, and the dialogs. I think the dialogs are one of the hardest interfaces to get rid of, because the only way would be to allow the player to type in what he wants to say, and this is generally impossible cause we never know what he will type, and how to respond.
The menu is also not yet "get-rid-of-able" but it might not be such a problem because it's outside the game. Saving the game will always be required for example.

Who knows... Maybe someday, we'll have a way to connect our mids to the computer, and it would read our minds and we control the game by thinking, and the dialogs would be spoken by us, with responses for anything, and with special virtual reality glasses we would feel like we were inside the game. And saving and loading will be implemented by thinking about it, and poof, it's saved, or will be automatic.
It would require making sure accidental thoughts don't get read though, like maybe identifying when the thought is directed at the game.
Now that's what I call immersive. :P ;) The only thing missing is adding the ability to taste, smell, and touch things inside the game. My, now that sounds scary. Fun, but scary... ;)
Try Not to Breathe - coming sooner or later!

We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later, we push up flowers. - Membrillo, Grim Fandango coroner

MachineElf

Well, I'm pretty sure the future of adventure games (if there is such...) lies in 3d environments and probably also cross-genres. I think there's a lot of console titles (most of which probably exists for PC as well) that goes in the right direction: Splinter Cell, Project Zero (which we discussed during Mittens and I didn't remember the name of - probably the scariest game I've ever played! Haven't yet tried System Shock though...) and we'll see where Broken Sword III ends up. These games have a solid story, which I would say is the essence of most adventure games, and a fair amount of puzzle solving. The difference though is that the puzzles usually are pretty basic or based on a specific action. I'd call these action-adventures. They are not FPS's, although they bear some resemblances of such, and not traditional adventures. Interfaces are almost invisible, although what I meant with transparent doesn't always have to mean invisible - there are always levels, and they're often non-linear to a point, meaning there are several ways to complete a level and it might have some impact later in the game.

I think the future of adventure games lies somewhere here. So you may all just kill me now for saying this...
But that's maybe another discussion.

The problem with a classic adventure game is that the game world is not realistic enough for an interface as transparent as explained above. But what can be done to get as realistic as possible? However, I think that's very different from person to person and there are also a lot of other things that makes you believe you're really in the game world - the entire mood the game creates. The illusion. The experience. If _everything_ in your game: story, graphics, interface, music etc, aims to maintain that illusion the player is more likely to get involved in your game. And that's what we all aim for, right? At least I hope so.
What I mean is: If your game is comical, make everything that way, is it comical but with dark undertones, state that in any way you can. Consistency, basically.

Again coming to the puzzle bit then... Puzzle, I think, must also be story driven (or sub-story driven). Why would you combine those two stupid items if you don't see the point in it? If the player ever does that, there's a design flaw. Ron Gilbert said something smart in an interview - goes something like this: "If you find a locked door and you have to get through, you have puzzle - you have to find the key. But if you find a key before you find a door, you know there will someplace be a locked door you'll have to go through." There's a difference there. The first puzzle is story driven (hopefully), the player wants to go through the door. The second puzzle is not. The player has no idea why he/she has to go through a door, just that somewhere there is a door that is locked. Mr Gilbert said that one thing they tried to do was to avoid such things. You should always find the door first.

I hope I made some sense and wasn't awfully off topic...
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.

eVOLVE

I like the B&W interface :) I was at Lionhead and was directly asked about the interface, and that was something that I had some input in :) Check the manual for my name in the creds if you wanna give me an ego boost too...

Back to the top though, the problem will cross genre games is that you're limiting your audience if you cross them too much... Take a game that mixed lots of adventure elements with a FPS game or something... if you were a fan of both genres it might be the perfect game for you... if you didn't like adventures, even if the FPS portion was incredible, you may not get it, and equally vice versa for adventure fans...
James 'eVOLVE' Hamer-Morton

Ginny

#15
I don't have the credits for BW cause the manual was translated to hebrew and the left out the credits, and I don't have the game installed right now, but there's a guy in the CI (Creature Isle, expansion pack) named James Norton ;).
There's also a European Marketing guy named... Murray Pannell ;D.

On topic though: "Now, there's puzzles and there's "must do's". Must do's are actions that you must carry out for the story to continue. Puzzles are challenges for the mind (how can I accomplish this/aquire that/whatever). How woul,d you feel about a game that only consists of "must do's", or perhaps sometimes not even that, but timed events carried out by NPC:s which of you have no control over. The actual GAMEPLAY is reduced, so it's perhaps not more than an interactive story of you can affect the way the plot will evolve. Is the puzzles the adventure GAMEPLAY, or is it also experiencing the story?"

Riot, I partially agree, but when you think about it, in order to perform the must do's, you have to perform the puzzles. In a well designed game, they are all essential to the story.

For example, a small MI spoiler:
Spoiler

In one part of the game you have to free someone from a jail cell. I forget why, havent played MI for a while, but that's your must do. In order to do it though, since the cell is locked, you have to do something. In this case it's carry grog in a timing puzzle, and use the grog on the lock before it melts the cup. This is a puzzle, but it is not in any way avoidable, it too, is an essential "must do" for completing the game.
[close]
A game is like a sweater. One stich seems unimportant on it's own, but take it out and the whole sweater falls apart.
(That was a horrible cliche, excuse me while I throw up, but it is true IMO ;)).

IMO we shouldn't be so hard on the puzzles, they put the 'game' in 'adventure game', after all. The excpetions are mini games, extra puzzles, and easter eggs, which are not part of the neccessary "must do's", but in my opinion they do not detract from the story, instead, they can add to the game enviorment and thus add to immersion.

I don't think cross genres is a good idea both because of what eVOLVE said, and also because I just like the good old adventures. That doesn't mean I'm against 3d though, on the contrary, my favorite game is GF, and it's partially 3d. Realtime 3d in a game like S&M or BS3 doesn't mean it becomes an action-adventure, both of these are pure AG's.
Try Not to Breathe - coming sooner or later!

We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later, we push up flowers. - Membrillo, Grim Fandango coroner

Barcik

A shortcoming of the adventurre games genre:

Getting stuck. I hate it when I sit 2 days, trying everything and clicking all that is in sight. You just have no darn clue what to do next.

Obviously, there should be challenge, no doubt there. The solutions to puzzles mustn't be elementery. However, getting stuck takes away from your gaming experiencesas there is, unlike in other games with a wider array of options (such as GTA3, for example, where you can do anything), pretty much nothing to do if you do not progress the story. So, being stuck for long harms the gameplay and the link the player has established with the game.
Currently Working On: Monkey Island 1.5

Riot

GinnyW: I was referring to "must do's" without a puzzle behind it, as asking a character the right question or just exiting your apartment. The MI example is an excellent example however on a succesful imlementation of a puzzle into the story. It simply makes sense. But IMHO, if there's a "must do" with a puzzle, it's a puzzle :)

Parsers: I think parser is the salvation. I've fiddled around with the idea since the first version of WTII, which was horrid due to the rest of the GUI stole the game design. But I love the parser, a good one that is...

However, there's one issue. The idea of clicking on something and then type in a verb is nice, cause it eliminates the "guess the object" phase many old adventures suffer. However, it'll require specific hotspots, usually for everything the player may click on. Furthermore, I experienced it to be annoying to combine mouse and keyboard usage (click-type, click-type).
Strict keyboard usage ala AGI games gives a more free dimension to interacting with the world. But it all lies down to HOW the parser is written. It is crucial that it's well written with lots of synonyms and similar to avoid verb-guessing sessions.

GarageGothic

#18
First of all, it's great to see the game theory discussion thread started. I've been looking forward to this since before Mittens.

Secondly, some feedback to Bionic Bill, which, I hope, will influence next weeks topic: We need to get WAY more specific. This weeks thread might be a good way to find topics for future discussions, but as a debate it's not very rewarding. I've nearly given up on replying to it, since so many sub-topics have been brought up. Everything from bad voice acting to whether we should bring back the text parser (imho, the latter would be a good example of a well defined and limited subject for a discussion). What's wrong with adventure games and what should be done about it might as well be the title of a years worth of game theory discussions.

However, let me add my two cents to the "puzzles - do we need them?" discussion:

Two of my favorite games, mostly for sentimental reasons,  are the first two Police Quests. But for now, let's focus on PQ1. Is there a single puzzle in the game? Well, that depends on your definition of "puzzle". For most of the game you just do what you are told, and do your job following proper police procedure (not too difficult when you actually have the manual ;)). I can only recall two situations in the game that demanded any kind of thought process - finding enough proof to get a no bail warrant and reporting back to your boss from the hotel. But did any of this make the game too easy or detract from the immersion? Hell no, I really felt like I was a cop peforming my duties, doing things by the book. I always knew what to do next, and usually how to do it, BECAUSE IT MADE PERFECT, LOGICAL SENSE WITHIN THE SITUATION!

The major problem with adventure game plots and settings seems to be the lack of natural gameplay potential - interation that flows from within the plot, the characters and the setting. PQ is a game about a cop - what do cops do? Wouldn't it be cool to play a cop? Sure it would! Space Quest is a game about a janitor on a space ship - what do janitors do? Nah, that's too boring, let's throw him into some wild adventures. See where I'm going?

Another example, from the designer of Police Quest nonetheless, is Codename: Iceman. The player character is a spy - sounds cool, right? - what do spies do? Well, for one they don't travel across the Atlantic in a nuclear submarine, torpedoing enemy ships along the way, risking international conflict, just to infiltrate a country where - get this - a fellow spy, who you met in the Caribbean just before you mission - has been all along! What's that you're saying? The guy is a submarine captain too? Oh, I see. What do submarine captains do? They certainly DON'T do metal shop work at the lathe, trying to repair diving equipment. Nor do they play dice with one of their crew people for a piece of advanced technology essential for the mission a world peace. These are absurd tasks, that have little to do with the actual scope of the man's mission.

Instead of coming up with weird puzzles and trying to fit them into your narrative, try to come up with with game concepts that are full of cool tasks which lends themselves to interaction. Even a cleaning lady game where you have to find the right product to get the blood stains off the bathroom floor is more fun than rubber duckies ;)

Ginny

#19
GG:
Your point is very well presented, but since I havn't played PQ, I'm interested in exactly how the duties were performed.
If, for example, you had to find an armed criminal in hiding, disram him and arrest him, what was the proccess? Were the little bits like finding him for example include things like dialog puzzles or to trap him for example, would you pick up a net and put it on the ground?
If yes, then it still could be called normal puzzles, but very much in context, which all puzzles should be.

However, can this be done without using a certain proffession, or if the proffession is boring for a game for example (like the janitor)?
Like, if you're just a guy who gets a strange message, and you're restless because of it, the natural thing would be to find out what it means, and thus, for example, someone who can tell you what it means, but is in prison, asks you to get him out. And this would be the puzzle. Would this still be considered natural?

Another issue, which I find is important, but sometimes overlooked, is the inventory items one one pick up in a game, and more specifically, where you can pick them up. You wouldn't find a pie just lying on the floor in your bedroom for example, but you would find it in the kitchen oven, or on the table.

Another thing, when you design a puzzle, what do you do in the proccess? I for example, would start with an obstacle in the context of the story, and find a solution for it, like, for example, using a certain item. However, this item has to be something that can be found in the area, so I would first think just what the item's use is, and then I would think of an item that could fulfill this use, and can be placed in the area logically.
Another way would be to first think up only obstcles, and then in each location, think of many object that could be found there, and then looks through the list and try to put together a solution to the problem.
Which way is better?

BB: Well, exiting your appartment is just walking of course, but asking the right question is a puzzle, a dialog puzzle to be precise.
A gam where you would only walk, is pretty much non-interactive IMO, unless you meant something else.

Combining mouse and keyboard usage is annoying, that's for sure.


Barcik:
QuoteGetting stuck. I hate it when I sit 2 days, trying everything and clicking all that is in sight. You just have no darn clue what to do next.

Obviously, there should be challenge, no doubt there. The solutions to puzzles mustn't be elementery. However, getting stuck takes away from your gaming experiencesas there is, unlike in other games with a wider array of options (such as GTA3, for example, where you can do anything), pretty much nothing to do if you do not progress the story. So, being stuck for long harms the gameplay and the link the player has established with the game.

I agree, being stuck is a problem. If you don't get stuck at all, it might seem like the game is too easy, and the game would be much shorter if every puzzle would be solved immeadeatly, without some thought, IMO.
However, this can be mended by making sure that when the player is stuck, he has more things to do. I don't mean other puzzles, because these too could, after being finished, leave you stuck with the one puzzle you can't solve.
(Btw, I was wondering what you think of having objects from a puzzle be required for another puzzle? I.e. there are 2 puzzles that you could seemingly solve at any order, but it turns out that to solve puzzle A, you need an item picked up while doing puzzle B, or right after doing puzzle B. This detracts from non linearity, but then again, it makes all the puzzles seem connected, integrated, and makes them fit in IMO.)
So, in order to avoid being stuck in the usual way, I think the solution is interactive elemts of the enviorment you are in. If you're in a hotel or some resort for rest, there could be a pool table, which you could use to play pool with the other tenants, etc, and this could be done at any time, like when you're stuck for example. The same with dialogs, there should be more dialog options to just pass time with the people in the area, and things like that. Also, allowing you to explore the area and interact with it just as an extra, not advancing the story, can also help. Some games say, "I don't have time for that. I have a treasure to find!" or something in the style. But do we have time to wander aimlessely, trying to solve the problem that has been presented to us?

I think another thing that can make sure the player doesn't get stuck is having logical puzzles, and providing Hints. Hints in the dialogs, in descriptions for things, etc. A good example: Grim Fandango. For example (spoiler):
Spoiler
When you need to get one of Domino's clents (which you are hinted about in a comment Manny makes), you will meet a character who says "those punks in de mail room" stuck their 'empty beer bottles' into the tube switcher which transfers the messages about clients. You need a client. Someone else's client. So yo jam the tube switcher machine. Etc..
[close]
Another good example is Apprentice, which provided hints in dialogs, but not only that, it also provided some inside an interactive elements of the enviorment, which has nothing to do with any puzzle. It's a crytal ball which you can interact with, which gives funny responses to things you ask, and you can also use any item with it, and it will give a small hint about it vaguely, and these too are humorous.
:)

Hmm, looks like I'm gonna replay GF again. ;D
Here's another thing GF did well: Voice acting. Some of the best voice acting I've ever heard, and is the reason I think good voice acting is important, because it adds so much to the character and to immersion, and IMO to the enjoyment from the game too.


P.s. You're right about having too many topics here, perhaps we can focus it later on one specific subject. Looks like puzzles are getting the most attention, but it might still be a topic too wide.

Is this an annual thing, starting a debate about something after Mittens? Like a sort of activity? :)
Try Not to Breathe - coming sooner or later!

We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later, we push up flowers. - Membrillo, Grim Fandango coroner

Bionic Bill

GarageGothic:
Future topics for discussion will certainly be more specific. This first thread was my way of polling for different topics to hit. After next week's, I'll probably pass the question posing to someone else who will pass it to someone else, that way these discussions don't rely on a particular board member for existence.

Another thing that rubs me the wrong way in adventure games is that if the main character isn't an empty shell of a character, then the "personality" of the main character must be investigative. I am not an investigative person, most people aren't. If someone handed me a note that said, "Meet me in the park at 9pm," I sure as heck wouldn't go to the park and meet the person. If I thought there might be some kind of conspiracy somewhere, I really honestly wouldn't care. The average protaganist, if s/he has any motivation, usually has to be a detective-like character: an investigative reporter, archaeologist, police officer, or just insatiably curious for no good reason. I always wondered what would happen in an adventure game if the protaganist refused to be investigative.

GarageGothic

#21
Bionic Bill: I'm glad to hear that. Maybe we should compile a list of possible topics though, just like they do for the Background Blitz competition?

GinnyW: An example from Police Quest 1:

Spoiler
After following a car containing a possibly armed suspect for a while with the sirens turned on, he finally pulls over. You radio for backup (otherwise you'll be shot while trying to arrest him). While waiting, you look at his licence plates and contact dispatch for an ID. You backup arrives. You load your gun (or check that it's loaded), exit the car and draw the gun. You command the suspect (by text parser) to "get out". As he starts walking towards you, you tell him "lie down". You walk up to him, cuff him and search him, finding, among other possessions, a firearm. You read him his rights. You ask him to "stand", and put him in the back seat of the car. Before leaving the scene, you open the trunk of his car using his keys, finding some drugs. You also check the interior of the car and discover a number of fake IDs along with a little black book in his glove compartment. Your backup says he'll take care of the evidence while you drive the suspect to jail.
[close]

As you see, there's not a single puzzle in the whole scene. You just follow proper police procedure.

Can it be done outside the realm of job simulation? Certainly. I think The Dig is an excellent example (ok, so the ARE astronauts, but they're not doing typical astronaut things). It's all about being in a situation and doing whatever would be natural under those conditions. You're stuck on a planet. What are the natural things to do? Explore, try to interact with the strange alien machines you find. Try to help your comrades when they get in trouble. See?
The exact opposite of this are those games where you're just bumbling your way through, only knowing that you did something right because an animation plays or because new locations are opened up. Larry 2 is probably the worst example of such a game (I know, lots of people love it, I don't).

Ginny

Yes, I see what you mean. I too of course don't like it when the player just does whatever, and knows he did something right just because of the graphical elemts in the game.
All should be in context.

What I am saying though, that within that context, within the actions you preform, there can be puzzles of traditional styles, such, for example, you are stuck on a planet as you said, and you invetigate some sort of machine, so you try to make it function, or understand what it does. This is in general a pretty typical adventure puzzle, fully in context.
Bad puzzles are a problem in games. Good puzzles aren't, on the contrary, they are part of the context and the story.

P.s. Yes, maybe we should combine a list.

BB: Now that's a good topic for discussion, albeit a little difficult though. But that's what makes it good! :)
Personally, I agree, in real life I am definetly not an investigative, daring person. I wouldn't go through some portal just cause some weird guy tells me I'm a shifter and there's another world, though I think I might believe him just because I'd want to, hehe. (this is TLJ).

In GF however, Manny isn't all that daring either. Spoilers:
Spoiler
Why does he say he'll blow the lid off the DOD? Mostly because it's his ionly way out. Why does he agree to get Sal the eggs? Once again, it's his only choice.
He does become more heroic later on, but he has fallen in love with Meche, so he has a good reason I suppose, plus helping al those people Hector stole tickets from.
[close]

However, if we portrayed in a game someone who isn't at all adventurous or daring or investigative, then to make the game actually interesting IMO, we would have to make sure he got into certain situattions where he wouls be compelled to do something.
I actually had an idea for a game like this a long time ago, though for some reason I wanted it in 3D, and wanted it to be really detailed to portray the atmosphere. So anyway, the idea was (and is, who knows, I might make it someday. hehe) that you play a totally 'boring' unadventureous guy, who receives a strange ltter, and throws it away. More strange things start to happen and he is having nightmares, but he does nothing, investigates nothing. I hadn't thought much of what happens later on, but he is caught in dangerous situations, and slowly his personality changes, he becomes more curious, etc..

If I see something interesting, I will check it out, since I am quite curious. but I'm not daring. And yet, that is why I enjoy playing daring protagonists. Games for me are sometimes a way to escape into a different, more interesting place, with no risk involved, and it opens up a side in me which is more daring and adventurous. If in games, you enjoy bein daring and doing things you wouldn't do in real life, then there is definetly a more adventurous side to you. ;) At least, i think so.
Try Not to Breathe - coming sooner or later!

We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later, we push up flowers. - Membrillo, Grim Fandango coroner

MachineElf

The protagonist in Slacker Quest wasn't adventurous at all and probably hated the whole thing. Bert was just a mad old man. Hm, I seem to have this thing for non-adventurous characters ;)

Well, whatever the player does, is it puzzles or just general exploring or doing his job, it mustn't go against the nature of the game and the character and everything around should show this.
I just played through Simon 2 and I wasn't really enjoyed. Story was ok, had a few twists, but the puzzles are awful. Had to search up a walkthrough and a lot of things still don't make sense. "Why?" is the general question throughout the game. A lot of backward puzzles, a lot of totally illogical things. The only thing that drove me to actually go through it was to see how the story developed and I probably wouldn't have cared unless I was an adventuregame fan.

Well, now the same things have been said over and over again... ;)
Btw, what game are you refering to as GF?
(aaagh... all these abbrevations!)
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Barcik

Currently Working On: Monkey Island 1.5

Ginny

Yep, GF it is.
I thought it'd be easy to guess even if you didn't play it because sometimes I refer to it in it's full name.
Yes, I'm obsessed with it, I know ;).

Anyway, should we make a list of topics and then choose one to discuss in the next thread?
Try Not to Breathe - coming sooner or later!

We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later, we push up flowers. - Membrillo, Grim Fandango coroner

GarageGothic

I suggest that we create a seperate, possibly sticky, thread similiar to the Background Blitz suggestion list: http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=4466

Anybody who wants to can post a topic suggestion, and, if they feel like it, volunteer to host that discussion. Or you can volunteer to host a discussion suggested by others.
Topics that nobody care enough about to host will just be dropped. As for how to choose next week's topic, I think democracy is the easy but boring way - I'm afraid that it'll just lead to uncontroversial subjects. I'd much rather see whoever hosts that weeks discussion choose the topic - a topic they really care about - and then write a short, preferably provocative, essay on it to get the debate started.

So instead of choosing next week's topic, we should choose (or rather, let people sign up to be) next week's host.

Bionic Bill

Well, whether we get a sticky thread or not, for now passing the discussion leader position will be done by the previous week's discussion, uhh...leader. Maybe leader is too strong a word. "Starter" then. Whatever.

All that to say, I choose you GarageGothic, to pose something interesting for us to ponder, maybe something from this discussion that you want debated, maybe something entirely from your brain. Have fun and such. Just do it sometime in the next couple days, I say.

GarageGothic

"With great power comes great responsibility" ;)

I'll see what I can come up with. It'll probably take me a few days, I'm kinda busy at the time. Monday at the earliest, maybe Tuesday.

GarageGothic

I'm sorry that I'm taking so long with this. But 1) I want to do it properly, as an example of how I think these discussion topics should be presented, and 2) I'm just really busy with my thesis, and this turned out to be more time consuming than I thought it would be.

I had hoped to start the discussion today, but it'll have to wait till tomorrow. Sorry about that. I can however reveal the topic, so you can start thinking about it. This time it's content related rather than technical:

Minority characters in adventure games

Bionic Bill


DGMacphee

Maybe I should try.

This next topic is SUBTEXT AND SYMBOLISM IN ADVENTURE GAMES

What are your favourite examples from the commercial games?

How about examples of your own?

My favourite is the gun exchange between Manny and Meche in Grim Fandango:

"(Hands over the gun) Here. What's a relationship without trust, right?"

"True, a relationship without trust is like a gun without a bullet!"

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edmundito

#32
Quote from: DGMacphee on Fri 22/08/2003 00:58:48
Maybe I should try.

This next topic is SUBTEXT AND SYMBOLISM IN ADVENTURE GAMES

What are your favourite examples from the commercial games?

How about examples of your own?

My favourite is the gun exchange between Manny and Meche in Grim Fandango:

"(Hands over the gun) Here. What's a relationship without trust, right?"

"True, a relationship without trust is like a gun without a bullet!"



but adventure games already have this. I think we should concentrate more on gameplay other than anything else because this is really why people are not playing them...  I'm still not too sure why; maybe they're not game enough .
The Tween Module now supports AGS 3.6.0!

Las Naranjas

Wasn't he asking for examples from the games that already had it though?
"I'm a moron" - LGM
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Bionic Bill

DG, I think the discussion topics should probably be a bit more narrow and a little more practical. We can recall symbolism, but really games are the worst example of this narrative device. We'd really need to look at literature, and that's probably something we can't cover here.

I can imagine GarageGothic's future-discussion actually making people change the way they approach design. I can also imagine an overly scholarly socio-economic analysis of game designers and the subconscious racial schema that result, which could be ignored by mostly everyone. Eh, maybe it wouldn't be. I can't imagine symbolism examples changing anything, but I could be wrong. Let your conscience be your guide, don't pee on the electric fence, etc.

GarageGothic

#35
I'm not sure what's happening here. SHOULD I post my discussion topic or not (still needs some tweaking but should be ready within an hour or so)? And no, it's not a socio-economic analysis, although it IS in part descriptive (looking at older games), the main part consists of thoughts on representation, stereotyping and political correctness in regards to racial and sexual minorities, in part inspired by something rodekill said in a recent post: ”I actually made Earwig as an experiment. First I wanted to see if anyone would point out the fact that he wasn't a white kid (No one did, and most people I asked later said they didn't even notice).”

Edit: And I should add - I approach it taking interactivity into consideration. If I didn't, it might as well be about books or movies.

And by the way, DGMacphee is the MASTER of symbolism - his thoughts on the subject are really interesting and could certainly influence the future of AGS games.

Bionic Bill

Yes, post your topic I say. Not in this thread though, or else it will become unweildy. I think DG should take the next discussion.

GarageGothic

Ok, cool. I expect it to be posted within the next hour or two.

DGMacphee

#38
* DGMacphee shrugs

I just saw the "You're are so fired" from BBS to GG and thought "Umm, maybe I should start some such thing".

But we can continue the Minority Character thing if everyone is happy with that.


Netmonkey: Not very many adventure games have this as it's a little difficult to implement.

For example, I'd like to see a demonstation of subtext and symbolism in a game like Phantasmagoria (which plays more like a soap opera than a piece of interative dramatic fiction).

BBS: I was also thinking about how we could better use the interactive environment in AGS to better the usage of symbolism and subtext -- That's probably more what you're after, I think.


Anyway, enough of my yappin' -- let's move on to GarageGothic's topic in the next post.
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gravyflood

To be honest, I think games made in AGS are better than commercial ones.  The reason is that they can't wow the players with jazzy sound and impressive graphics most of the time, so they have to enrich the gameplay to compensate.  I also think that puzzles and story should be symbiotic in a game - that is, the story should bring about puzzles, and the puzzles should feed the story.

eVOLVE

Okay, I don't wanna offend anyone here, but gravyflood, I can't help but disagree that AGS games are 'better' than commercial ones because they have to enrich the gameplay to compensate for graphics and sound.

When you really think about what you're saying, you're saying that gameplay outranks graphics and sound in terms of importance, which I very much agree with... however you seem to imply that the gameplay is better BECAUSE the graphics and sound take a back seat. Sure, a game that had better gameplay than a commercial game with worse graphics and sound would be better, but you have to understand that having a large team to make a game like most commercial developers means that they can have gameplay too... it's not mutually exclusive.

For a game to have worse graphics and sound than another and still to beat it means that it MUST have better gameplay, and commercial dev teams are still trying to accomplish this too.

Sure, enriching gameplay to compensate is one thing, but there is nothing to say that many of these commercial adventures COULD be drastically improved upon, and certainly not by smaller teams of part time developers.

The important fact here is that just because we can't wow players with sound and graphics doesn't make us any more likely to succeed in enriching gameplay.

As I said, I don't mean to offend anyone, and I'm quite positive that some AGS games are and will be better than commercial ones, but just having worse artistic values doesn't make the gameplay better.
James 'eVOLVE' Hamer-Morton

DGMacphee

No offence at all.

However, I'd rather play a graphically-impared game like Pleughburg than a dog's breakfast commerical game, like Myst.

Myst had pitiful gameplay and felt very limited once you got past the gloss.

It seems most commercial developers concerntrated upon graphics during the late 90s -- How do you account for the "interactive movie" boom (which was caused by Myst).

Seriously, you had several games with shitty gameplay but great gfx/FMV, including Critical Path, The Journeyman Project, and my pick for 'Dunder of the Decade', Phantasmagoria.

Graphics do take back seat.

But most developers didn't realise this during the 90s -- They thought, "Hey if a glossy game like Myst can make a million bucks, so can our glossy Myst-clone!"

So when a gameplay-enriched FPS shoot 'em up called Doom came along, most developers turned away from adventures and concerntrated on real-time 3D.

Eric's signature is right: Adventures didn't die; they commited suicide, and were assisted by greedy developers.
ABRACADABRA YOUR SPELLS ARE OKAY

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Trapezoid

I don't really consider most Myst-clones adventures. They're mostly Interactive Fiction dealies.
Anyway, almost every LucasArts game has better graphics AND gameplay than the most AGS games.

DGMacphee

Interactive movie are included in the genre of adventure games.

They're a sub-genre.
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RocketGirl

Well, I have to agree that getting stuck can really detract from enjoyment of a game. Does anyone recall trying to find that cursed bridle in King's Quest 4?
Or, for that matter, a friend of mine and I spent DAYS trying to figure out how to progress in Space Quest 4, only to EVENTUALLY discover that the only way to proceed was to stand in a very specific spot in the arcade in the Galaxy Galleria where the was nothing to look at or do and no explicit or even implied reason whatsoever to go stand in that spot. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

But that's not what I want to bring up. I want to bring up something else: itty bitty hotspots/objects:

Like the golden ball in KQ4. It's tiny! Sure, the parser is text so grabbing the ball isn't a problem, but NOTICING it is!
Or in Runaway (a more recent adventure game) there have been a number of times where the thing you need to grab to be able to progress is 5x5 pixels...tops! AND blends in with the scenery pretty badly. I think there was a sewing kit in the drag queens' bus, for example, that took me two bleedin' days to find.

I see this as a BIG no-no. If you have to resort to hiding important items by making them extremely wee and not at all contrasting with the BG, that's a sign of a weak game. Sure, it's way more difficult to come up with CLEVER puzzles that force your players to think, but tough, sez I. That's what makes a fun and well-made game. If it was EASY, everyone would do it every day.
May the Force be with you

Wretched

Getting stuck.

Most of the gamers I know have probably played about 2% of a point 'n click at some point in their lives, got stuck, frustratedly spent 15 mins randomly clicking all over the screen and given up.  People want to be entertained 100% of the time, take every other genre of game. There is always something going on, or something to be done. Adventure games need to know when the player is stuck and start to help them out somehow. I think the popularity of Lost in the Nightmare, arguably one of the worst 'adventure' games here, 2 or 3 puzzles? and 2 or 3 hours of simply clicking hotspots, yawn. Not to take from the game as an interactive horror movie it's top marks, great story, 100% linear game play, mindless interaction. That's what people want. Mindless entertainment. Adventure games are for people who want to use their brains a bit and that is what is wrong with the games, and also what makes them so good. Sorry for disjointed post but hope it gets my thoughts across.

ManicMatt

What was that crazy game called, Curse of enchantia? Where you start the game hanging upside down in a cell, and ther game had NO dialog. (I think)

It was the most illogical minded adventure game I've ever played.

If the puzzles weren't obscure enough, me and my brother were stuck forever on this part inside a shipwreck or something and you had to click on a pixel to solve a puzzle. We never found the pixel, and the game remains uncompleted to this day. not as though I still have that game... it was on the amiga!)

Nikolas

You know, playing FPS, or something simmilar can be very appealing.

I find it much more direct. With special moves and guns and stuff you have a more direct approach to gameplay.

I've been playing ONI for quite a while now. And I like it.

Nothing to do with adventure but the pros: The architecture of the game is flowless. I can hit enemies with 20+ different moves and 8-10 different weapons. Example: Hit f onve and you throw a punch, hit it twice you hit two differnt punches, hit it thrice and the third punch knocks out the enemy.

Maybe Adventures tend to be a little boring. There is no action. There is not timing, in most of them. And all you apparently have to do is visit every room, take every object you find and use it everywhere you can find. This can be boring. Not to mention that it can be illogical to begin with! I mean you can carry limitless items, with limitless weight and do whatever the programmer has thought, but nothing else.

Of course gameplay is important. And the story is important. But the presentation adds to the whole package. Come one, Myst sucked as an adventure but graphic wise it was perfect (for that time...) There should be balance between all the ellements fo the game.

Good graphics
good music
good speech pack
good gameplay
good story

Well, if one of these are not up to todays standard then...

And actually I think that in AGS, you can have speech and music (since you can play MP3, and you can put whatever music you want). The gameplay in most games is well thought out and the stories are very appealing. But graphic wise, I would like to see something more contemporary. Don't get me wrong but I feel that if we have the opportunity to use higher resiolutions why should we stick to 320x200? Of course not all games are suited for higher resolution. And actually a lot of them looke better in this resolution than in a higher one (take for example the Amulet of Kings). Perfect! Just perfect!

But what I miss is a little evolution. A little broadening of the horizons. A little thinking as to what new could we do that could shake the world of the player. I find the ending of Prodigal to be a good example. You get a game with one or two songs in game (but in weird quality...) and music that is not exactly present, but sets the mood exactly right. The composer of the game did a great job indeed! But the ending, is a completly different story. A whole song, a very good song, a small 4-5 minute movie-like with a very good direction by the director, plus the shock of the story and all the sceneary! I find it original because of the single fact that everything is gathering for this final moments. Everything pushes you to go there. That is the peak! That is the ending! That is the whole point of the game! Form-wise you can have different directions. This takes you a little up at the beginning with moments that push you a little higher, but the whole game keeps you there at a certain level. And for a purpose! For the ending! The ending is a fast moving elevator!

I find Prodigal particularly for this but of course the whole game is great!

I just don't understand why there can't be an adventure in 2 DVD set with amazing 3d graphics and amazing music and gameplay and a story that will rock your world. I just fail to understand why... :-\

lo_res_man

#48
whats wrong with myst? yes two puzzels made me want to kill the developers, the piano, and the car ride. but all the other puzzles felt, to me, logical and meaning full. my fave is solving the transmitter puzzel in the last age. speaking of GF, what makes that game so amaizing is the charactor development. manny turns from being a cowerd who will agree with anyone to get by to being a hero. want to know a funny piece of trivia? the actor who did BRinks voice was  Robert PAtrick. This was heavly touted by lucas arts, because he had been in termanator 2. but what charactor you ask? the shape-shifter robot! and he NEVER said a WORD! So your voice actor is a guy whos most famos role has NO lines. weird world huh?
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

IM NOT TEH SPAM

#49
Myst was not just "gloss and no gameplay", dg.  In fact, it was a very open world--You could go to any age at any given time (assuming you knew how) and find bits of information about all of the characters, not needed to win but still quite interesting.  The interface wasn't too open, but you could explore and interact with the enviorment.  It only went into movie sequences when you figured out puzzles, which there were quite a few.  The ending stunk like dead plague rats, but I liked that game.

Two more things.

1.  I dislike the whole "all modern, non-adventure games suck" point of view.  I enjoyed adventure games, but was eased into it when I was younger and liked different types.  It went like: QFG5 (very rpg like, but was still kind of an adventure game) ---.QFG4(a very good game, not rpg like but still similar to 5) ---> QFG2(old style adventure game, very good game and barely similar to 5) --->5 Day A Stranger(a full fledged adventure game).  This was over a few years.  But I still enjoy the modern ones.  There are modern games which deserved to be burned for various reasons, such as Dead or Alive XBV (my friend just bought that game.  I tried to supress the want to kick his ass) or King's Quest 8 (kind of old, I know, but the ending sucked, the gameplay sucked, the puzzles were nonexistand and it took 3 hours to load). 

2.  "adventure games are not dead, they're just (insert random verb)"  In the commercial world, they ARE.  I'm sorry to tell you, but game companies aren't making them anymore.  When was the last time you heard a mainstream gamer of today talking about the new adventure game coming out?  If they're not dead yet, they're dying.  Not here, of course.  But in the commercial world?  I would go out on a limb and say yes.
APPARENTLY IM ON A "TROLLING SPREE"

RocketGirl

I think the issue I had with Myst was that it really wasn't story-driven. There weren't really any characters to interact with, and the plot seemed little more than a vehicle for another math-or-pattern-recognition puzzle as the game progressed.
While that may entertain some folks--and more power to 'em, I say--it doesn't do anything for me, really. Different strokes an' all that, neh?

And, yeah, I have to agree, the commercial adventure game is really a thing of the past, Runaway and The Longest Journey notwithstanding. Exceptions, both of 'em, and considering how far apart their release dates were only illustrates the point.
Not that I wouldn't mind a resurrection of the genre, but most gamers these days are much more interesting in 3D bells-and-whistles, action, and instant gratification than anything else. I say most, not all very specifically; I think the AGS community alone shows that there's exceptions...but we ain't the majority, here, folks. I wish it were otherwise.
May the Force be with you

lo_res_man

can anyone say "the adventure company"? I agree though with the anti "modern non adventure games al suck " argument. One of my fave games are quake and Perfect Dark Ã, (p. d. is for N64)i have played stratigy games and somwhat enjoy them, rpgs can be fun if you work on them, fighting games are great when you and a buddy want to punch something., racing games if you have need for speed. ALL genre's are importent, it just depends on your mood.
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

Snarky

Quote from: RocketGirl on Wed 07/12/2005 23:00:26
And, yeah, I have to agree, the commercial adventure game is really a thing of the past, Runaway and The Longest Journey notwithstanding. Exceptions, both of 'em, and considering how far apart their release dates were only illustrates the point.

It's not like Runaway and TLJ are the only commercial adventure games of recent years. This year alone saw Myst V, Still Life, Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Another Code, VOYAGE, 80 Days, Bone Chapter 1, ECHO, another couple of Nancy Drew games and a Law & Order game. Most of these games were well received, critically, and at least one was a runaway success.

So while we're not in the golden age of Sierra and LucasArts (and Revolution, and Westwood, and Access, etc, etc), the genre is hardly dead, either.

RocketGirl

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 07/12/2005 23:31:28
It's not like Runaway and TLJ are the only commercial adventure games of recent years. This year alone saw Myst V, Still Life, Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Another Code, VOYAGE, 80 Days, Bone Chapter 1, ECHO, another couple of Nancy Drew games and a Law & Order game. Most of these games were well received, critically, and at least one was a runaway success.

Somehow I've managed to miss all of those entirely. Well, except Myst V, which I really don't believe qualifies anyway unless the Myst series has changed dramatically since the first few.

I d'know, I suppose it's possible they're just not being carried by the local chain franchises or something, because when I browse EB or whatever, I just don't see traditional adventure games hardly at all. I only found Runaway because it was in the $5 bargain bin at Half-Price Books...

And, believe me, I see this as a shame! If I'd heard about them, I might have sought these games out! Were they marketed at all well? How'd I manage to miss 'em?

Quote
So while we're not in the golden age of Sierra and LucasArts (and Revolution, and Westwood, and Access, etc, etc), the genre is hardly dead, either.

Well, you coulda fooled me, honestly. Because I've been looking...and not finding.
May the Force be with you

ManicMatt

I cannot speak for America, but in England Fahrenheit (Or known as indigo prophecy in USA) was well marketed. It went in the top ten I think.

Still life was a poorly advertised game, being a french adventure game that gets largely ignored like syberia 1 and 2. (Enjoyed them all!)

A demo of Bone appeared a few months back on UK magazine PCZone.

80 days? As in around the world in 80 days? I played a demo of that. Bag of crap. Fetch and carry 3D game.

Also, there's a half decent 2.5D point and clicker called NiBiRu.

Snarky

By the way, I forgot about And Then There Were None, Lee Sheldon's (Riddle of Master Lu, Dark Side of the Moon) game from Agatha Christie's novel.

Your game store might just suck. When I've looked in Best Buy, Fry's, CompUSA, EB, and GameStop around here, there are always a few adventure games. Sometimes even a few shelves devoted to adventures. You also find a lot of adventures in the "reduced price" section of the store, since adventures tend to be cheap (and linger on for ages: who cares whether an adventure game was released last week or last year?).

As for how you missed them... Well, two of the games on that list are for the Nintendo DS, where you might not think to look. A couple haven't actually been released in the US yet (or have only been released in the last couple of weeks). One was an Internet-only release. Most of the rest were first-person perspective, which it sounds like maybe you don't like. But you should certainly have heard of Still Life and Indigo Prophecy.

Check out Adventure Gamers to keep up to date on what's going on in the world of commercial (and indie) adventure games.

As for Myst, I think it's indisputable that they are adventure games. A different style to what many people around here are fans of, but definitely adventures. You can draw a clear line between many of the early text adventures and the original Myst, and the sequels added more story and character focus that make them more similar to what we expect from adventures.

RocketGirl

I guess my game stores must just suck, then. I wouldn't be surprised honestly; much as I love Seattle, there are certian basic assumptions and preconceptions that are rather insidious in this town. Assumptions about what people want, preconceptions about what will or won't sell, etc. Not just in video games, but in everything. It's really weird, for a town that's supposed to be so hip.

Ah, well. I guess I'll just have to bookmark that Adventure Gamers site and order junk on-line from now on...
May the Force be with you

Hollister Man

I like this thread, but am not in the mood for major post yet.  BUT, I had a concept for keeping from getting stuck.

My thought was for the game to keep track of your progress, possibly by the point counter.  If you change rooms 15 times or click on 15 (just an easy number) unhandled hotspots, the game assumes you're stuck and offers a simple hint, perhaps enough to get you through, perhaps not.  (Remember the scrap of paper in Black Widow's web in KQ6?  Love...  It as the answer to the door in the underworld.  Imagine this was only given to you if you needed it.)

I've got a very specific idea in mind, but cannot really talk about it, its part of my current project.
That's like looking through a microscope at a bacterial culture and seeing a THOUSAND DANCING HAMSTERS!

Your whole planet is gonna blow up!  Your whole DAMN planet...

lo_res_man

Quote from: RocketGirl on Thu 08/12/2005 17:45:19
Ah, well. I guess I'll just have to bookmark that Adventure Gamers site and order junk on-line from now on...
try thrift stores, flea markets, garage sales, you neve know what you might find there. my mum got me asa joke gift a game she thought looked silly. it was. turned out to be eric the unready, a classic. I got  kq5 from the salvation army and the dig from a flea market. riven myst trators gate mi3 & 4 and grim fendango from radio shack. SO keep looking you never know what you might find.
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

AlbinoPanther

*LJUBI take our rubber chicken use it with a cannon and shoot at all FPS freeks

Seriusly ADVENTURES are and will be THE only games for us.

lo_res_man

Quote from: LJUBI on Tue 13/12/2005 07:22:52Seriusly ADVENTURES are and will be THE only games for us.

er... LJUBI, i hope your been silly or somthing, cuz that post left me cold. ( i always get cold when someone says somthing with such ...erm.. religious.. ummm.. FERVER)
plz, follow that golden forum rule, "think before you post"
thanx

ps: i am not trying to be a moderator, just trying to do my part to help
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

otter

Quote from: DGMacphee on Sat 09/08/2003 17:17:01Most of the time it's a bog-standard Monkey Island clone/stop the evil scientist/game set in the future/detective game.

I know you said this a long time ago, but I gotta chime in to back you up.  Here's a specific list of game settings that I think are played out:


    Games set on an island, especially if the name of the island figures in the name of the game.  I think this extends beyond simple MI fannishness: islands are natural settings for adventure games -- sparsely populated, interesting scenery, easy to traverse in a short amount of time.  Still.  No more islands.

    Games where you wake up in a strange place, not knowing who you are.  I think this is a variation on the
"white room" beginning.  (Incidentally, the link in question is a wonderful list of sci-fi cliches, geared at writers but also valuable for adventure gamers.)

Games set in sanitariums or mental institutions.  I can't put my finger on why this is so popular, but there sure seem to be a lot of them.  This might just be a channeling of a popular horror movie framework, I guess.


[/list]
last upload: E/Y EP

RocketGirl

Quote from: otter on Wed 04/01/2006 06:25:16
Games set on an island, especially if the name of the island figures in the name of the game.Ã, 

...

Games where you wake up in a strange place, not knowing who you are.Ã, 

...

Games set in sanitariums or mental institutions.Ã, 

I think I can explain some of this: It requires very little set-up/exposition.

I mean, let's face it, if your game is set in a complex world that has its own rules, cultures, and history, it can be a weapons-grade pain in the butt to explain it all to the player...and wouldn't most of us feel lost if we'd been thrown in the worlds of, say, Star Wars or Narnia if we hadn't already seen the movies or read the books?

But if you set you game on an island, in a looney bin, or start the character with no memories, then the player learns the rules of the world they're in right along with the protagonist.
And if the world your game is set in happens to be one of your own devising that needs this kind of explanation, then it can be very important that the player understand your world before being thrown completely in the thick of things. Hence such adventure game tropes as islands, sanitariums, and amnesia.
May the Force be with you

esper

I love you, RocketGirl. You ganked my answer, and thus you must be a godess.
This Space Left Blank Intentionally.

otter

Rocketgirl and esper: totally agree.  (Dunno if anyone followed the "white room" link, but apparently one psychological reason for that particular cop-out is because the writer is staring at a blank, white page, i.e. the protagonist's setting is blank because the writer hasn't written it yet.  Cute use of psychology...)

Anyway, having lots of backstory has its own problems, as you said, but exposition can definitely be done gracefully.  There are some great examples of this -- I'm thinking in particular of Trinity, whose opening lines follow:

Quote
Sharp words between the superpowers. Tanks in East Berlin. And now, reports the BBC, rumors of a satellite blackout. It's enough to spoil your continental breakfast.

But the world will have to wait. This is the last day of your $599 London Getaway Package, and you're determined to soak up as much of that authentic English ambience as you can. So you've left the tour bus behind, ditched the camera and escaped to Hyde Park for a contemplative stroll through the Kensington Gardens.

I robbed this from The Craft Of Adventure, which is a really interesting read for anyone into game creation (although its intended audience is mostly for writers of interactive fiction, as you might have guessed).  Anyway, this is text, of course, but it would work easily well as a cut-scene or a few screens of dialog, and right away it establishes who you are (a middle-class tourist), what your motivation is (sightseeing) and what's going on (the beginning of World War III).

Narnia and Star Wars are good examples of complex worlds, but it's also true that all of us at one point were ignorant of anything about these universes, and they still managed to draw us in.  To be an active, rather than passive, participant, I think you need to know a little bit more about how things work -- however, you can also make the puzzles and the game aspect work for you, by letting the player explore the world a little, conversing with people and interacting with objects, to let her/him see how it differs from our own before things really get moving.

Thoughts? :)
last upload: E/Y EP

esper

Well, it's like Star Trek: the 25th Anniversary point n' click adventure game by Interplay... You could know everything there is to know about the Star Trek universe (I do NOT put myself in this category, in case you were wondering), however, you couldn't use that knowledge to solve the alien puzzles in the game. Also, much of the fun in Out of This World (Another World, also by Interplay/Delphine) was not knowing what was going on. I still love hearing the guard at the beginning yell "HAGUSTA!" at me which, I'm sure, is alien for "Hey, asshole, stop rocking your cage!"

I think the best thing you can do for an adventure game is to put the player in completely unknown territory. Even in King's Quest, which used a standard fantasy realm (Daventry) littered with mythological and faerie-tale references, Roberta still managed to make it new and exciting. You might have seen Alice in Wonderland a hundred times, but winding up in the queen's garden and not knowing what the crap was going on was much of the fun.

Read the first book in C.S. Lewis' space trilogy sometime. I forget which one it is (of Perelandra, Out of the Silent Planet, and That Hideous Strength... I think it's the second)... The character in the book was put in completely unknown, savage conditions on a distant planet, faced with strange aliens that didn't speak his language and with which he could in no way communicate with, and surrounded by starnge alien artifacts that he had no clue how to operate. The entire fun of that book was seeing how he managed to figure the use of the items, how to communicate with the aliens, how to survive completely alone and forsaken on this completely new frontier...

Unfortunately, "There's nothing new under the sun." Everything spawns from something else nowadays, and there is no "newness" to it. Every good story, puzzle, character, etc. for adventure games has been done and redone. The problem with adventure games, thus, is that there is not enough "adventure." We are delving into places we have already been, multiple times.

But I've lost track of where this all was going. What were we having "Thoughts?" on again?
This Space Left Blank Intentionally.

otter

Yeah, I think we're on the same page here -- part of the advantage of the adventure game setting is that the player can work out a lot of the backstory on her/his own.  But I don't think that means that we've exhausted the genre -- if anything, this should work to our advantage as designers.  After all, you should be able to get away with setting a game just about anywhere, as long as you give the player a rich environment to fool around in and discover things at her/his own pace (by implementing good descriptions for objects, giving NPCs convincing dialogue and motivations, etc.).

I'm probably rambling.  Does this make sense?  (maybe I shouldn't ask... haha)
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RocketGirl

Well, one thing I've never really seen done with the adventure game genre is a huge story arc that takes several games to tell with a gigantic backstory that unfolds as the game does.

Imagine Babylon 5 for adventure games.

Because, sure, there have been adventure games with sequels, and sometimes characters come back, but you know they never intended that from the beginning. Most games are entirely self-contained adventures, no previous experience necessary to play.

I think maybe this would help re-energize the genre, make people really want to play the next installment.
May the Force be with you

ManicMatt

Ah, kind of like that .netHack RPG I've never played.

That would be nice, but I seem to recall a game doing that before, leaving me with a cliffhanger at the end, and they never made any sequels.

Then there are games that tack a cliffhanger on to the end, like in Primal, and Kya i think.

RocketGirl

Well, it needn't be a cliffhanger, necessarily. Just...loose ends that become important later. It's much harder to write that way, of course, but if something that seemed significant and over turns out to be a small piece of a much larger picture...
May the Force be with you

Kweepa

Still waiting for Purity of the Surf II

En garde!

I remember reading an aricle (sadly, can't remember who wrote it or where I read it) linking the decline of adventure games to the popularization of internet (and thus, of walkthroughs for games)

The idea the guy had (and I found myself agreeing even aginst my will) was that this thing we hate so much, getting stuck at puzzles, were exactly the main point of Adventure Games.

Sure, it was frustrating. What the hell do I need to make this machine work? Will I have to pixel-chase again every single room? This is a door, I have a sledgehammer... why can't I just hit open the stupid door? I'll try it again! Just in case I clicked it wrong the first eighty times!

And we quit. And promised ourselves we were throwing away the stupid game first thing tomorrow. But we didn't. We kept on loading again the game because, hey! Somebody has to save Zork from that mean Inquisitor! The destiny of mankind was on our shoulders.

And then, sooner or later, we found the stupid hidden stone, or used the jar on the truck for no aparent reason, and... it... worked! All that tension acumulated, all that hatred against the game designers, all released thanks to our perseverance or intelligence. And then we were rewarded with some more story.

I'm not, of course, saying that this was the only appeal of Adventure Games. But hell, it was a big one. Nowadays, I find myself looking for a walkthrough even when I haven't explored every single room. Who's got time for walking around empty rooms in a game, anyway?

Maybe games are better now, but with walkthroughs? Less addictive.

Snarky

Quoting myself:

The Internet dealt three blows against adventures. First, it provided multiplayer options to games in the FPS, RTS and RPG (and many other) genres. No one has yet figured out how to make a successful multiplayer adventure game. Second, it made hints and walkthroughs easily available. And when they're available, people use them. Few people have the discipline to suffer frustration for day or weeks when the solution is just a click or two away. However, this reduced the gameplay time and value of adventure games enormously. At the same time it made them less enjoyable. It's more fun when you solve the puzzles yourself. Finally, it made services like "The Sierra Hotline" that offered hints for a fee outdated, and thus removed one source of revenue (the value of which I have no idea of) for adventure developers and publishers.

The other major reason I would give is the rise of 3D games, which adventures were never able to take advantage of in a successful way.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens

QuoteNo one has yet figured out how to make a successful multiplayer adventure game.

Lies!  Club Caribe (Habitat)!  I remember when my friend lost his head and could never find it again.  Good times.

Afflict

Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 26/01/2006 09:35:51
Lies!  Club Caribe (Habitat)!  I remember when my friend lost his head and could never find it again.  Good times.
wikipedia calls it an RPG heh

an AGS rookie

Quote from: Wretched on Tue 06/12/2005 23:29:33
Getting stuck.

Most of the gamers I know have probably played about 2% of a point 'n click at some point in their lives, got stuck, frustratedly spent 15 mins randomly clicking all over the screen and given up.  People want to be entertained 100% of the time

I think all good games, both adventure and any other genre, must be at least a little frustrating at some points to be truly entertaining. If you never had to worry about being stuck for more than 15 minutes in any adventure-game it would be quite boring. It wouldn,t allow developers to think out funny and original puzzles which is what have made adventure-games popular (at least as popular as they were in the golden days of adventure-games.)  After all, what fun would for example an FPS be, if you never had to worry about dying, and could race through any level under 15 minutes? Sure, a light-hearted, easy adventure or a mindless platform-shooter can sometimes be fun and also good. (Broken Sword is a good example.) but in the long end it,s challenge players want in games (along with other important stuff such as a good story, memorable characters etc.) Getting that proud and rewarding feeling when you finally solve that seemingly impossible-to-solve-puzzle or finally defeat that nasty, three-headed mutant which guards the secret lab or whatever, is one of the most important reasons why we play games!   

droneforever

I'm pretty sure I'm in the vast minority with this opinion (given the way that both commercial and non-commercial games have been made lately) but what often bothers me is...

...way too much dialogue.

Don't get me wrong.  I like good dialogue (The Longest Journey is an example).  But I don't like what seems to be the standard approach: An endless dialogue-tree which must be clicked completely through, forcing you to listen/read for an extended period of time, in order to advance the game.

I'd rather games focus more on things happening than on conversation.  Many games, even ones I enjoy greatly, are basically just backdrops for you to wander around having conversations and occasionally using items.  They feel a little bit too "relaxed".  I'd like to see games in which sudden radical changes in the environment are possible and unexpected.

I don't know if it's been tried in a game yet, but I think a neat trick to avoid having a puzzle be "timed" (in that one must react at just the right time) yet still be tense (in that one feels one has very little time to resolve a situation) would be to, essentially, have the game "pause", with the result that every further action you take increments the clock (basically, a graphical version of how text-based adventures work).  No idea how difficult this would be with AGS or any other homebrew engine, but obviously commercial games could do it.

Anym

#77
For me, I have to agree, too much linearity seems to be the biggest problem of adventure games. Being stuck is a result of this. The game won't progress until you've solved a certain "bottleneck" puzzle, which usually has exactly one solution. Often, you won't be able to do anything at all until you do solve it.

Often bad puzzle design increases this problem. People often complain that a problem with parser in old interactive fiction was that you had to "guess the verb". While point-and-click interfaces did away with this problem, the problem to "read the mind" of the developer may still remain if there is only one single way to solve a puzzle and while it might have seemed obvious to the developer, if the player doesn't get it, he just doesn't get it. Now, I have to admit that the feeling of finally "getting it" (especially if the solution is completely logical, but not very obvious) is one of the most rewarding in computer games and almost exclusive to adventure games. On the other hand, of course, not getting it, and not being able to do anything until you do, is just as frustrating. So, I partly agree that getting stuck can be fun, once you're over it, but most of the time, my patience wears thin before that. My computer playing time is limited and I'd rather spend and fifty minutes shooting aliens than being stuck.

Having more than one solution to puzzles is therefore very desirable, but also very hard to do. Subtle context sensitive hints would also be a good remedy, but is also quite hard to do well. Of course, those two suggestions can only reduce the problem and not eliminate it entirely, but reducing it might be enough. Being stuck for fifteen minutes might be acceptable, being stuck for fifty probably isn't. As a designer can't think of everything himself, good beta testing is essential, to get an idea, where people are more likely to get stuck and what should work as a solution, but currently doesn't.

Another possibility, altough more for commercial projects, rather than for amateur ones, at least at the moment, would be the use of a powerful physics engine (basically requiring 3D graphics as well) as the foundation of the adventure game and most of its puzzles, so that the players are limited by their own imagination rather than the developer's. If it's something would be possible in the real world, it should be possible in the game as well, even if the developer didn't explicitly though of and implemented it.

Another thing that bugs me and ties into the linearity aspect is that you can almost always only do things that have relevance to the plot. This intensifies the problem of being stuck insofar that it puts you in a situation where you aren't just stuck on a single puzzle, but stuck in the entire game, because there is absolutely nothing to do besides that puzzle at that moment. Sidequests might be an interesting addition, if you can find a proper reward for the player and if you can make it clear that it's only a side quest.

Unlike RPGs, adventure gamers have little need for experience points or gold pieces, at least mosft of the time, and supplying a character with an item is also problematic, if you want it to be useful, yet non-essential for the rest of the game, like a tricorder that provides interesting, possibly even useful, but strictly non-essential information. Other rewards could be a better ending, like in Fallout where the end seuence would not only tell you that you saved the wastelands, but would also revisit various locations and tell you how they would develop, partly as a result of your actions (or inactions), or a sub-plot, maybe a romantic one, or anything that fleshes out the game world, assuming that the writing and/or the graphics are good enough, otherwise, "more" might be a punishment rather than a reward. ;)

It doesn't have to be sidequests, though. What about giving the player character do small things to do just to kill some time. Instead of running around wildly when stuck, your character could have lunch or going to the toilet, maybe even recapulating everything that has happened so far, in the hope of giving the player new ideas. Duke Nukem 3D let the player do lots of useless stuff. And people seem to enjoy watching The Sims do mundane things. Of course, if eating lunch, has no discernable effect, people might be tempted to see a puzzle where there is none and eat lunch repeatedly in order to figure out the puzzle hidden within the lunch, see below.

However, if there are sidequests, then they should be recognizable as sidequests, to avoid players being stuck and being frustrated in a completely optional part of the game. I don't know how to do this though. Especially as adventure players tend to try everything with everything, as they've been conditioned into that mindset. Did you ever notice how differently from other people adventure gamers play adventure games? Talking with everybody about everything even if there is no discernable reason to do so, taking everything that isn't nailed down, even stealing when necessary, knowing that there won't be any dire consequences for theft and that the fact, that you have to be smart enough to steal something, for example by distracting the owner, almost guarantees that the item will be needed later on, or trying to solve everything that looks like a puzzle, even if it isn't immediately clear how, if at all, this particular puzzle will tie in with your current goals.

The LucasArts philosophy of design helped this development. Nobody will kill you for touching their stuff and there are no dead ends, meaning that if something works, it will also be the correct thing to do. That's not to say that the LucasArts philosophy was a bad thing, quite the opposite. If you're stuck in a LucasArts game you at least know that the problem and the solution are somewhere right there in front of you, in other games, you might just as well be hopelessly stuck, because you forgot to pick up something earlier, but you have no way of knowing for sure, which makes a big difference, in how frustrating such a situation is.

This mindset could be hard to break and if you're actually making adventure games for adventure gamers rather than a general audience, you might not even want to. Still, you could try adding a large number of items that are plausible to exist (cups, spoons, books, stones,...), but have no real purpose, most of them being red herrings. Or you could try to let the player combine and dissemble items randomly. If you have a toothpick and a tomato, both might have their uses, but you could also combine them to a useless tomato-with-a-toothpick in it while making it possible to seperate the combination again to get the original items back. Or you could let them do things like eating which makes perfect sense for a person to do, but has no in-game effect. Or people could get angry if you steal too much, maybe even putting you in a get-out-of-prison puzzle. Of course, they can never get so angry that you're stuck, so you might think, why bother being nice, but then, people you treat with respect rather than stealing from them might be much more willing to help you.

And now for something completely different:

Quote from: lo_res_man on Wed 07/12/2005 20:26:44want to know a funny piece of trivia? the actor who did BRinks voice was  Robert PAtrick. This was heavly touted by lucas arts, because he had been in termanator 2. but what charactor you ask? the shape-shifter robot! and he NEVER said a WORD! So your voice actor is a guy whos most famos role has NO lines. weird world huh?

Robert Patrick actually voiced Boston Low and I think his T-1000 had more lines than Schwarzeneger's T-800 had in the first movie.
I look just like Bobbin Threadbare.

Polecat

#78
After skimming through the topic, I've noticed several points that came back repeatedly:

Story Originality [or lack thereof]
  The White Room
  I enjoyed the posts on the overabundance of the white room conundrum that strikes so many adventure games. Simply put, the white room is used to create an instant hook for the player to wonder who exactly are they playing and what happened? It leaves for all sorts of plot twists and a "safety" area for the writers to delve in to explain away why the player doesn't naturally know how to use certain items/machinery that be encountered during the adventure. And I have to admit that initially, I found this to be a rather enticing hook. Pulled off correctly, it was a great incentive and kept me going to figure out just who the hell "I" was.

But then again, when was the last time we've seen it pulled off correctly? As it became more used, the "truth" never seemed to justify the suspense and soon stories all seemed to be written by Michael Crichton: great buildup and disappointing end.

And thats where the originality seems to be gone. I, personally, have no objections to playing yet another amnesia struck individual but if thats the way things are going to go... There better be a greaaaaaaat explanation for it.

  The Cliche
  Another post that I had to agree wholeheartedly is the overuse of certain settings, characters, and goals to the point of being cliche. Islands, Asylums, Haunted Mansions/Hotels, Islands Again, Private Investigator, Police Detective, Bumbling Idiot, MYST, etc.. etc..

These cliches aren't just the source of the "oh boy another [cliche] story.." thoughts but seem almost like a bandwagon that everyone is in a hurry to climb onto. It is a crutch that storywriters and puzzle-designers lean upon too heavily. Its easy to make a detective story because y'know what comes with it: crime scene puzzles [and I have to admit that I draw pleasure from solving any crime scene]. Its easy to write about a haunted mansion because there are, of course, ghosts about [or for a Scooby-Doo twist, people pretending to be ghosts].

I think that Cliches should be used as templates and hopefully evolve into something else. If not, well.. just don't half-ass it: if you're going to follow a cliche to the end, better make it gold all the way through.

  The Cures
     The White Room
     I've come to the conclusion that the white room conundrum has a surprisingly easy solution: The Intro Cutscene/Movie and accompanying manual. My favorite examples are Beneath a Steel Sky, Full Throttle, Five Days a Stranger, LOOM, and The Dig. The short introductionary cutscene for Five Days a Stranger turned the haunted house-theme on its ear and had me hooked before I even started! It can give a backdrop and suggest a richness of the story that is awaiting to unfold.

LOOM is a particularly great example because the story wasn't that great [nor lengthy] but the manual, the audio play, the small narrative voice over and cutscene at the beginning; all that put a tapestry of story behind the story [so to speak] which left you wanting more. [Which may have been the most disappointing part of LOOM: not fully exploring such a world].

     The Cliche
     Unfortunately, the cliche cure isn't that simple, mainly because as fans and adventure gamers we wish to emulate the games that we enjoyed the most and that is a crucial hurdle to pass.

One of my favorite quotes is taken from William Gibson's blog:
QuoteInfluences are things to have, and then to get over. The latter being a lot harder than the former. (I, for example, couldn't even begin to write until I got over J.G. Ballard.)

Even if you cannot completely ignore your influences, it is possible to at least evolve and alter the idea:
Instead of a private/police investigator, how about an insurance investigator? Instead of a patient in an hospital, how about a doctor helping patients? [just imagine surgerical puzzles!]
A murder mystery in modern day? Why not changing it to a murder mystery in the 11th Century. [I'd love to see an adaptation of Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose.
A good protaganist stopping an evil religious order from destroying society can become an evil man infiltrating a good religious order in an attempt to subvert society. 
Stranded on a desert island could be come lost in the Underground of London [ala Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere].

Throw insignificant subplots in there to add flavor! [Syberia's phone conversations anyone?] Its absolutely incredible how a small play on words can change something entirely.

Presentation
I suppose this part is Story Originality: Cures Part 2, because nothing can enhance an already entrancing game [or save an overused plot device] than absolutely terrific presentation. This can be broken down into parts: Graphics, Audio, and Ambience.

  Graphical presentation
  This really broken down to backgrounds, characters and character animation. And these are rather self explanatory; how great a game will look depends on the art designers, good descriptions by the writers/director, and how far of an extra mile everyone is willing to go. Indiana Jones and the Fountain of Youth and the Legend of the Lost Lagoon are obvious showcases of going that extra mile to present trully gorgeous games. Character animation during dialogue or cutscenes would add so much more life to characters as well.

However! I find that graphics aren't nearly as important as as Audio, which in turn has a great deal in creating Ambience. [Example: Pleurghburg. Terrific audio]

  Audio
  Nice segue, eh? ;) Audio is one of the two things I consider the most important in a story [the other being story]. In my opinion, there should almost always[/b] be some sort of audio being played in the duration of the game. It adds that finishing touch to immersion that nothing else can really do.

A silent house where you only hear the character's footsteps can be creepy, but add creeking wood, howling wind, squealing doors, spooky almost-voices whispering; and you've got something that raises the bar quite abit.

Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge fixed what I had thought was the biggest problem of Secret of Monkey Island: the great music score was rarely heard! Suddenly LeChuck's Revenge, everywhere you heard a great light-toned music and the great yacky game became that much better.

It might be an rather long and industrious extra mile to go for [specially in AGS games] but for those looking to make something with real quality, I think its a mile well worth tredding.

Debates: Dialouge and Voice Acting
droneforever brought up a good point about dialouge [ironic, considering his name ;D]. I'd have to agree to some of this, specially when another character is telling a story or explaining about something that may go on for while. What came to mind immediately was Marcus Brody in Raiders of the Lost Ark when he's telling Indy that he should be careful about pursuing the Ark: while Marcus was talking, an epic and mysterious sounding orchestral piece was played in the background which added that extra emphasis to what he was saying. Perfect for some dialogue in games, although that doesn't entirely fix the problem.

Voice acting seems to be a rather controversial subject matter for AGS gamers and I side with those who vote that games should have voice acting but only if its high quality. If I hear a whiney sounding kid, well it better be playing a whiney kid. Or have an AUDIO OFF option :P

  Ambience
  This is just a combination of absolutely everything: witty one-liners, epic music, sound effects, beautifully drawn backgrounds. But most importantly is how they all mesh together. Its not the parts that are important as much as the sum of the parts.

Interface
I actually found the debates on what a good interface is to be great! Some complained of the interaction button doing everything for you, which brings up the underlying question:

How much control should the player have?

To this I have no real answer and have almost come to decide that it depends entirely on the game.

The Dig had a incredibly simplistic interface: Left click did all interactions [talking, looking, pushing] with an object/people. Right click brought up the inventory. That was it. So breathtakingly simple that I came away not filled with frustration about how to interact with objects but instead I was able to fully immerse myself into the game and experience the wonder of being on an alien world and the desperation of going home.

Now thats just talking The Dig, had the same control scheme been applied to say.. Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, it wouldn't have worked.

It all depends on the context of game, but in my opinion: the more innovative the better. I'd love to see something like LOOM's distaff drafts again.

Puzzle design
Having once been part of an ARG Development Team, I thoroughly understand how difficult this really is. Your audience is coming to you for a story that pulls them in and hooks them til the very end, keeping them on the edge of their seat and up late at nights trying to figure out what is going to happen next. But at the same time, they're looking to be challenged and thats the key word: challenged.

The most difficult part of puzzle design is not only finding a puzzle that will fit in the context of the story but also making it challenging to the players. And those are the important parts to puzzle design: Do not sacrifice story for the sake of puzzles and puzzles should be challenging as well as intuitive. And for extra credit: multiple solutions to puzzles.

This a rule I think should be followed for most adventure games. However sometimes there comes along an idea of how to go about puzzles so innovative that the game is built entirely for it instead. And in those cases... I suppose it depends. But hell, I'll say it. Innovation rocks my socks off.

Bringing up a game up again: LOOM had amazingly simplistic puzzles. Did it matter? Not to me, I just loved playing with the distaff. Another game that looks like it'll an incredibly innovative puzzle system is the up and coming PS2 action-adventure Okami. Those playing will be able to switch from a regular viewpoint to using a celestial brush to draw in bridges or defeat enemies.

I'd love to see an AGS game in which the character's inventory was made up of different brushes and paints with which combinations caused different things to happen! [An almost impossible dream I know as the parser for images would be incredibly difficult to create].

Linear gameplay [or lack of replayability]
This is a much harped upon subject as well and one in which I agree with the harpers.I don't particularly care for multiple endings but being able to solve a puzzle multiple ways would just be terrific. And if solving a puzzle differently causes the story to change, ah hell, I won't complain. Promise. ;)

EDIT: Upon rereading the topic, I'd say that some sidequests and just meaningless things to do would be interesting but the problem would be where to draw the line. [But if you had to go that route.. Oblivion, Morrowind, and Shemue all make great examples to follow].


Whew. This turned to be much longer than I anticipated but I hope I've brought up some good ideas! Enjoy!
Currently Reading: Soldier of the Mist
Last Read: Stardust [+++]
Playing: Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge
Recently Played: The Dig [+++]

Radisshu

#79
I haven't read any previous replies, so pardon me if I accidently repeat someone's point of view, but what bothers me the most about the point and click-style adventure games (or "cinematic" style, as they feature other titles than just point and click, such as Grim Fandango) is that they're good on the first run-through, but they rarely offer any replay value.

The first time I played Broken Sword, for example, I had a great time withÃ,  figuring out all the various puzzles (which also took quite a long time) and uncovering the next parts of the plot. On the second run through, it was out of pure nostalgia. Sure, I enjoyed it, but I easily completed the game in a few hours and it didn't give me anything. The same can be applied to Grim Fandango, Monkey Island 1/2/3/4, LOOM (except from the fact that the songs vary, but that's only a small change of you carry a notebook), and many AGS titles.

I suppose that this is why I consider roleplaying games to be the more able "successor" to these type of adventure games (even if the genre still exist), as later CRPGs were able to give the great graphics and cinematic feel with full story AND an open-ended way of solving various things (even though they often involve fighting) that give a new experience with each play through, rather than just the same old story. A lot of the old point and click-games, though, are some of the most atmospheric games I've played.


And improvements, well.. Adventure games with more open-ended storylines. There's usually just the "YOU FAIL!" or "YOU SUCCEED!" outcomes of your actions, whilst I think it would be a lot more fun (AND immersive) if you could affect the plot by your actions, sort of like in a CRPG. It still wouldn't have to stop being an adventure game, and you'd have more fun playing it through several times.

the rev

Wondering if I'm crazy...

I’ve been thinking about this lately, and I wonder if I’m the only one.  What I really hate is when adventure game puzzles are not obvious.  I don't mean that puzzles need to be easy, but I prefer a game that draws upon common sense/knowledge to create a puzzle.  Perils of Rosella IMHO did this well.  Many of the puzzles drew upon common knowledge from the genre of "fairy tale."  Likewise with the better Space Quests--if they're spoofing Star Trek, drawing upon an old Star Trek episode helps you solve the puzzle.

What I hate are random inventory item associations that lead to "guess and click" puzzle solving.

ciborium

Quote from: The Rev on Sat 26/08/2006 01:37:00
What I really hate is when adventure game puzzles are not obvious.Ã, 

I hope you mean obvious in that when you're stuck on the puzzle and you finally solve it (or cheat and look at the walkthrough,) you say to yourself, "Why didn't I think of that before?"

Such as opening a pocket knife before trying to use it to cut a rope, or striking a match / lighting a cigar lighter before lighting a candle with it.

Not obvious as in using the blue key in the blue safe which contains the blue gem to give to to blue meanie...

The puzzles I really hate are the ones that have no logical solution (the "Why the [insert expletive here] would I do that?!" and the "Who the heck thought that up?" type puzzles,)and the completely trial and error puzzles.

Non-Logical: Pulling the cat's tail so it scares the little mouse who runs into the bookshelf, shaking it just enough so that the bowling trophy falls off so you can give it to the Maharaja of India to be his best friend so he will let you into his kickball game.

Trial & Error: Three card monty. Use every item with every item and see what happens.
If there is a pattern to the puzzle, give some kind of subtle clue to the pattern somewhere.Ã, 

Indy FoY demo did this with Sally's homework and the end puzzle.
Not like the floating island puzzle in Journey to the Center of the Earth. (Serious T&E)

What I'd really like to see is an adventure game where all objects/inventory items are in a place where you can get to them when you need them, but the character doesn't seem interested in them until he knows he needs them.Ã, 

When you try to pick up the butcher knife at the beginning of the game, EGO says, "I might cut myself if I carry that large knife!" then the player would have to remember it was there later when he needs to cut rope tying the boat to the shore later in the game.Ã, 

That's realistic. Unless I am a cleptomaniac, I don't go around picking up random objects for no apparent reason.

I don't want to have to re-play half the game because I forgot something and now have to restore, but I won't mind walking across six or eight screens to get the item I just realized I now need.

DoorKnobHandle

#82
Quote from: ciborium on Fri 08/09/2006 05:05:54
Trial & Error: Three card monty. Use every item with every item and see what happens.
If there is a pattern to the puzzle, give some kind of subtle clue to the pattern somewhere. 

Indy FoY demo did this with Sally's homework and the end puzzle.
Not like the floating island puzzle in Journey to the Center of the Earth. (Serious T&E)

What are you talking about exactly? There were a lots of clues and you should've really recognized those symbols on that wall from the homework. The words were given in Sally's papers and you had to think of what sentence you could enter that contains four words. You found it in the Memoirs.

I see what you mean with Trial&Error "puzzles" (and I hate those as well), but if you could only solve the final puzzle in our FoY Demo by trying out all combinations on the wall buttons, then you completly missed the point and probably spend hours and hours doing this... ;D

Erenan

Quote from: ciborium on Fri 08/09/2006 05:05:54
That's realistic. Unless I am a cleptomaniac, I don't go around picking up random objects for no apparent reason.

Then why would you tell the player character to do it in the first place? If the player wants to steal something, let him steal it. If there really is an ethical barrier in the gameworld, maybe give the player a warning, like... "Taking this object would be stealing. Do you still want to take it?"

I think it's important to maintain a sense of being in the game, and the player saying, "Nah, I don't want to do that" and "No, I think I'll ignore the player this time" really doesn't help with that.
The Bunker

ciborium

#84
Quote from: dkh on Fri 08/09/2006 14:29:34
Quote from: ciborium on Fri 08/09/2006 05:05:54
Trial & Error: Three card monty. Use every item with every item and see what happens.
If there is a pattern to the puzzle, give some kind of subtle clue to the pattern somewhere.Ã, 

Indy FoY demo did this with Sally's homework and the end puzzle.
Not like the floating island puzzle in Journey to the Center of the Earth. (Serious T&E)

What are you talking about exactly? There were a lots of clues and you should've really recognized those symbols on that wall from the homework. The words were given in Sally's papers and you had to think of what sentence you could enter that contains four words. You found it in the Memoirs.

I see what you mean with Trial&Error "puzzles" (and I hate those as well), but if you could only solve the final puzzle in our FoY Demo by trying out all combinations on the wall buttons, then you completly missed the point and probably spend hours and hours doing this... ;D

What I meant was that Indy FoY gave you the pattern to the puzzle in the memoirs and in Sally's homework (i.e. you did a marvelous job,) however Journey did not.  Even UHS and the walkthroughs for Journey said they couldn't find the supposed patterns between the columns and the statues.

After reading your post and then re-reading mine, I guess I could have been more clear.  Not to say it was too easy, but I realized the symbols on the wall were the same as the symbols in the homework and memoirs.  Although maybe you should have had Sally make a few more mistakes, or (in)corrections to make it a little more challenging.


Erenan: We tell the character to pick up everything that's nailed down because that's the way we have learned to play adventure games. (If EGO can pick it up, then I must need it later on.)  I think King's Quest V taught us that, because if you didn't pick EVERYTHING up, then you would't be able to continue the game. (If you don't pick up the hammer, then you die when the innkeeper puts you in the cellar.  If you don't pick up the rope in the cellar, then you can't climb the cliff [and you can't go back and get the rope.]  If you don't pick up the leg of lamb, you can't feed the eagle, and he won't save you from the roc's nest.)

In a game like MI2, where you can go back to where you've been (for the most part,) then it might make sense for Guybrush to say, "No, thanks.  There might be lice on that tupee." until after the Voodoo lady tells you you need "something from the head."

Davros

While it makes more sense, that's an incredibly painful way to play, because at some point, you *know* you need the knife.  Or your game crashed, and you're restarting.  For me, that would be enough to not play the game.

A weight limit might be another way to handle it, especially in a game where you *could* take anything.  Sure, you can take the books, the mirror, the rope, the flowers from the vase and the comfy chair, but your speed is now 5% of what it might be otherwise. 

I often find puzzles where I know what to do (pretty sure), but it's a matter of finding the right pixel combination.  That happened all the time in the old text-interface KQ games, and happens a bit less frequently with the point and click interface.  I think programmers need to think outside the box, or hire beta testers for more solutions or possibilities.  There's no reason that the pocket knife can cut the rope, but the butcher knife can't.  This is more of a pain for developers, but makes a richer experience for the player.

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