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Intense: If you believe in Big Bang theory, you should know that it was a singularity. A point infinitelly small and of infinite density. The latest studies prove that there was nothing before it. The previous studies believed that, if something existed before that, it was destroyed by the singularity and no information can possibly "survive" to it. None of the possibilities needs a "God"; Actually both possibilities tell us that, if the big bang is true, there is no God.

He... I knew it! I knew that to the "Everything must be created!" has to be followed by an "Eeeer... Well... Everything except God..."

So, I must assume that you don't believe in Big Bang...

Something we have evidences of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

Evidences of God?

Come on, man... explain your "downstairs" problem... don' t make me to get on my knees.

It is apparent to me from my senses that the world around me exists. If something exists it is logical to consider that it was created by someone or something.

Who created God?

Okay.

Honestly, people, do you believe that what I wrote as offensive for believers as, for example, what DG McPhee wrote about republicans?

I remember him quoting a dialog with a republican. We refered to him as "me" and to the republican as "idiot".

-me:"I believe this"
-idiot: "I think you are wrong!".

And nobody reacted... Why? Apparently religion creates that not only believers are offended of something with the same "provocative quality" as some other sentence which nobody cared about... but also non believers do! Weird... (Well... Actually DG McPhee was being 100 times more provocative than me, but I am assuming that he was JUST as offensive as me to give head of advantage to my critics...)

The conlcussion I receive is that the believers faith is weaker than anything else... You can tell to a football fan "your team is a complete shit" and he doesn't care... or at least he will reply you saying "Hey, yours is a shit even bigger!" You can tell someone "Obama sucks" and he doesn't care (Or at least he will reply: "Hey! At least he is better than Bush!"

They are convinced, no attack can make a scratch in their ideological shields. With believers that same attacks which did nothing to some other belives make a scratch... A deep one. Believers must evade the debate, and hide under the words of "respect my opinion!" to elude the trade of ideas.

And that is something that makes me make a smile of victory... ^_^

I did something to behave better, contradicting myself! ^_^ You must be proud!

There are some "on topic" lines in an edit above... Looking forwards for your surelly interesting reply.

Why is it wrong to compare believing in God with believing in Smurfs? Because we know exactly how and when and by whom the Smurfs were created. They were created by Peyo in the fifties. Secondly, they were never intended to explain anything about the universe or our existence. Nobody, except children and a few lunatics, would ever believe them to be real, or to have some sort of existentialistic function.
Same goes for Luke Skywalker. You only brought these examples in to make religion seem stupid, when in fact they're totally irrelevant.

We know when the Judeo-Christian God was created, and by who.

Smurfs do not intend to explain anything about universe or our existence? Well... Bible is not a physics book, ergo, it does not intent to explain anything about universe. Is bible a morale book? Every book of smurfs has 3 or 4 morale conclussions.

And... what don't you change "Smurfs" with "Greek mythology"? It had everything that you considered "good" about religions... No certain origin, tries to explains our origins as well, had many followers... But nobody complains if someone says "Hey, guys... Greek mythology is illogical". Why people do when we do the same about nowadays religions?

Because the nowadays religions are modern? Ok, so, we can say that an old illogical belief was not correct (Heliocentrism) but we can't say that an illogical modern belief is. We can't say that telechinesis is illogical. Good.

Because they have lots of followers? Okay, so, according to you... we must not fight illogical beliefs if they have some amount of followers? Where is the line? What is the valour of "X" followers that makes a belief undebatable?

We can't fight nazism, communism, racism, fascism if they reach an X numbers of followers? Okay.

I am not comparing... But I am say that we can discuss... and that we can discuss in the very exact terms as if we were having a relaxed, mature discussion about politics, football or science... without fear of someone stepping into and yelling "Hey!!! Be carefull! Illogic? you said illogic??? That' s offensive!!!"

As said, if it's you who behave different when hears the world "religion", it's you who has a problem, not me.

Funny... You are the only one that refers to me in that terms... You are the only one that feels provoked, or offended...

Maybe the problem are not "my words"? Maybe the problem is "Andail and what Nacho says"?

Think of it.

I must concede to believers that they have done a much better exercise of trying to understand and tolerate me than you... Sad for a moderator.

So, to summarise, yes... You are not my father. I am not going to change my behaviour for what you say or write... Specially if nobody else complains. If there are 99 people in the room telling me something and only one telling me to do the other I use to think that thise solo man is not right, you know?

Well... can we go on topic?

EDIT: Would changing "Those who believe in God have such a deep throath to swallow illogical things that it's just silly to try to convince them of something different" for "Being a believer needs such an ideological compromise that is very difficult to discuss with them" work? Consider it done.

Khris, now I miss quoting "Einstein's" stalement about "abscense of God is evil, as cold is absence of heat". (Saying that that was told by Einstein is false as a wooden dollar, though..."
http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/religion/a/einstein_god.htm

Einstein's idea about religion was closer to this:
http://www.relativitybook.com/resources/Einstein_religion.html

But let' s get deeper into KhrisMUC' s opinion...  Why don' t you, believers, allow kids to be raised "religion free", and allow them to decide when they are adults? Are you so scared about an adult opinion about all the supernatural stuff in religion that you have to put it into kids' minds? Sad. Really sad.

Believers of "God" are like believers of UFOs in the sense that they don't care if belief "A" is completelly different to belief "B". At least you believe in something... you are "better" than those atheistics! Do you believe that the earth was created by a giant turtle? Okay, I believe that it was created in six days by a man who looks like me, but I don't care! Let's  fight those heretics!!!

I once was in a TV show... they were two "abducted" guys.
-The aliens who abducted me came from Ganimedi...
-Really? The ones that abducted me are "intraterrestians", they come from the center of the earth, and they told me that we haven' t been visited by ETs outer from solar system.
Do you think that those guys started to argue because one belief was excludent from the other? No... they joined forces and started to fight the skeptiks. Very rational...

Same with religions. Let' s do an experiment... let' s put some couples of humans that have been "religion free" raised in the middle of the Amazon jungle and let's see if that population believe in the judeo-christian God after some generations. After 200 years, the antropologist come back to the jungle and the descendants do believe in some kind of "jaguar-shaped God which created the jungle 10,000 moons ago after pooing some seeds it had eaten from the Big Tree of life". And then, the believer antropologist comes and says: "See??? They believe in God! The existence of God is proved! Humans believe in something supernatural, it must be intuitive! It must come from above!!!".

No. "They don't believe in GOD". They developed a belief in "some god". The only thing that the experiment proves is that humans are superstitious and, with nothing better to use, they try to explain they can't understand with something.

But throughout history, there have been people who gave up a lot (e.g. their lives) to help other people, at no apparent benefit to themselves. Why did they do that? Insanity? Peer pressure? Obviously the self-preservation instinct sometimes fails to kick in.

Because of the "Reward". People is not behaving morally, actually... They are just "getting points" for go to Heaven.

Jesus...
Everyone's entitled to their opinion!
And everyone's entitled to question that opinion!
But everyone is not entitled to call other people stupid, illogical, lost cases!

Don't lie. I never used the word stupid in this thread. "Nacho' s offensive word 1" replied.

Now... Illogical.

Do we agree that "GOD" is something supernatural? Okay.
Supernatural=Something that is not of the usual. Something that is somehow not natural, or has been altered by forces that are not understood fully if at all.
Illogical=Opposite to logical.

"Offensive word 2" replied.

What do we have? Lost cases? Okay... Now, put your hand in your heart, and tell me that you would intevene and threaten to lock a thread if DG MacPhee says in a political thread something like: "People who voted for Bush, when he is obviously the worst president of the United States ever,  is so blind that they are lost causes".

Would you? Thanks... I also think you would not.

So, proved that the three sentences that annoyed you are not provokative. Actually, I think you are the only one who keeps me posting here and the only one who reacted about it. Relax. Think as a moderator and examine yourself... Maybe it' s you who act different when hears the world "religion" and start acting differently.

And please, don't quote me uncorrectly again...

Yup, but you will agree with me that, if someone here says "I believe in Unicorns", no one will complain. No moderator will threat to lock the thread, there won't be a mainstream of non unicorn believers saying "hey! Respect the guy who believes in Unicorns". Non believers in Unicorns defending the unicorns believers... Can you imagine that???

Do you imagine DG MacPhee saying "Hey... relax... If the guy likes George Bush, he has the right to do it".

I do not, either.

As you see, Lionmonkey, religion has some advantages that some other beliefs do not have.

That' s what annoy me, not religion per se.

In Spain everybody over certain age has a plastic card which allows you to go the the doctor, and be attended by him (Of course, if you are not that age, your parents take you there and you are identified with their card...). Everybody here who is "legal" has access to it. First aid is also guaranteed... Here we attend, and after that, we ask.

There are some cons: People coming from countries without social care overuse it. And I am not beig a "racist who hates people from poor countries"... Elderly people from rich countries with a non so open social security are always visiting the doctor... It's like a timekiller! The ratio of foreign people at the doctor' s office exceeds by far the ratio of foreign people in the streets. Nothing to worry about, since this happens something with consults about non-serious diseases (colds, headaches, flu...). If something is "serious" (Surgery, Chemio, etc...) the ratio of "national/foreign" people is exactly the same as in the streets, of course. A

s said, consulting the doctor for non serious things is something people gets used soon.

There are also some other cons. (Spanish) elderly people has medicines and drugs for free... Result: Everybody asks the doctor to put in the paper that it's grandpa who needs the medicine. And they do. Bad, bad...

Some other cons... In Spain we have 17 "counties". Social care is something that is not statal, the workers of Valencia do not pay the social care of the people from Madrid... BUT... they don't ask your origin when you need to be attended somewhere, so, a hospital from Valencia can be attending someone from Madrid. That is a problem for touristic towns... For example, 80% of the patients in my town are from outside. Doctors have to attend 100 people, but only 20 pay.

And you have to wait... Months... you can advance a lot in the queue if your disease is really dangerous, but sometimes it's too late. If the surgery is not for saving your life, but for improving your life quality (Repairing a wounded knee bone, for example) you are f***. You might have to wait like 3 or 4 years.

Hope it helps.

Okay. Now, explain me why saying something of "X" is not provocative, and saying EXACTLY THE SAME about "religion" is.

Thanks.

No... I just want you to tell me the differences between nowadays religions and any other sucessful trend, like, for example, Star Wars, being a F.C. Barcelona fan or, let' s say, believe in Zeus.

Why nowadays "everybody" agrees that the Greek tradition was uncorrect and that very people still believe the modern one is correct? Why? Which are the differences?

-Greeks had the iconography... They were able to "see" Zeus, Atenea and Heracles as we can see now Jesus or Virgin Mary.
-Had lot of historical references, if looked for with the "correct eye"... Even "forensics" evidences, if you want.
-The believe had lots of followers... a high percentage of the civilised world believe on that.
-They had a lot of side books and legends, that "re-inforced" the believe. Those legendes wer written along a huge period of time, and made the original history richer.
-The followers are CONVINCED that what they believe is real.

But, hey! Nowadays we are CONVINCED that ancient greeks were not right... Now we ARE! (And some believers dare to call skeptics egocentrics, hehe...)



I remember than once SSH asked me the reasons why I was a F.C. Barcelona fan, I guess he wanted to annoy me "attacking" something that was "sacred" somehow for me.

He gave me the best anti-religious argument ever.

Football is like religion: I like Barça because I was told that Barça existed... My dad told to me, I saw it in the newspapers, in the TV news... If I was born in the middle of the Amazon I wouldn't have magically turned into a Barcelona fan. Same with believers: It' s knowleadge that comes from tradition, not from something supernatural above.

Football gives me a feeling of belonging. I see people who likes my team, I share moments with them, I worship my team with them every weekends. I feel comfortable with F.C. Barcelona... I like football because it makes my life better, not because there is a supernatural being above. Like religion. Who would worship God if he didn't promise a reward? No one.

I am CONVINCED that my team is the best and that the rival is the bad one. I am so convinced that it makes me feel weird that there is someone in "the other side" as convinced as I am... They can't be... I must be right! My team is the good one. Period. Like believers... They are so convinced that God is real that they can't understand that non believers must be right. They can't be right... I am convinced: God must exist.

But there are two main differences: I never claimed that Barcelona is a team created by something supernatural. There is no supernatural source: When I argue with a Real Madrid fan I would never dare to introduce into the discussion something of the sort of "Barcelona has an overwhelming power... if you don' t like Barcelona you' ll spent the rest of the eternity in hell". Football is football.

If I have a football argument at the bar I will never turn back and whisper "Okay... discussion ended... but you are wrong!" like a modern Galileo, something believers do. The believer introduces the supernatural force in the discussion because if he can't win he will always think "Well... poor them... I have my GOD!"

And the second main difference: F.C. Barcelona is not teached at schools to minors, with public money.

Two big differences...

85%? The poll where you took that figures must be really flawed... It must be around 5 %, actually. I guess that the poll actually counts any baptized (or initiated, in those religions which do not have baptism) as a "believer". Which is extremelly uncorrect of course... And unfair, because millions of kids are initiated without being asked, or before having the necessary tools to decide if what the adults say have sense or not.

Letter of Marque.

Me, on the left, with my cousin... A lof of years ago, at my granpa' s cottage.

Yes... it was about the time of Rambo II.

Ain't your "locky trigger finger" a bit too fast lately? This is the best thread we had in years... One thing is wanting peacefull forums, the other is to do it by killing anything remotelly funny...

The spirit of my post is that "God" is such an unbelieverable that, if someone does believe in it, he/she is a lost case. If someone understood something different, I apology.

Anyway I believe that, being as we are in the 21st century, is about time that if someone says that "God is like the Unicorns or Smurfs" people, including nonbelievers, don't start toring their hair out to censor this view.

I mean... Somone can say "I believe that there is a 6 billion years white bearded man floating in heaven who made it all" and someone can't say "I don't believe it" or "Prove it!"? Wow... That's what I call having "Letter of marque". And I hate that in the 21st century there are beliefs that still have letter of marque.

Miguel, I am not going to discuss with someone who believes in God. Those who believe in God have such a deep throath to swallow illogical things that it's just silly to try to convince them of something different.

I mean... "I believe that there was a guy, who resembled to us, who make all the universe... and he survived the big bang, no matter what physicians say! And after the big bang he took a big nap, but after 6 billions years he woke up and said "Oh, shit! My task here was to do a race of guys who are similar to me!" and he did. And there was a period when he was really noticeable, you know? He was here everyday, , sending messages to Abraham, sending plagues, opening the seas, and all that... One day he said: "Ok! Enough! Now I will disappear, the only evidence of my existence will be the set of legends that a group of desert sheppards will write down in leather scrolls!" And some centuries after he send his son, who said things completelly different to that thigs that the sheppards wrote on their sacred books, but nobody cared..."

For me, someone who believes such a set of ideas is clearly too deep into a belief that trying to discuss with him about those issues is useless. So... Do you believe in God? Good... I believe in smurfs.