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Hehe... And who is going to receive the scroungers? The originary country of the inmigrant? What a business...

Well, the cases I know is (inmigration) because they want to be richer. And as they are used to live with less, they can send some money to their families in their original country, which is a currency hemorragy... It' s something there' s no way to fight (in a democratic way) but it' s still a problem...

Also, I am not a monster... I would like everyone to be here, to work here, and if they get uneployed, to use our social services... But those services are not unlimited, and in crisis period, when those savings are jeopardised I *don't* see the problem in being those uneployed inmigrants to be the first ones to lose those social cares.

If someone can explain me where is the problem in my thinking, please, tell to me... Because one thing is being "good person"... the other is kill everybody in the boat for not having the guts to release some extra weight. (Yes, sounds horrible... but crisis periods are horrible).

Honestly, Matti, I haven't read this thread deeply... I was not aiming to anyone in particular, so, don' t get "offended". Anyway, my thoughts were not directed to you when I was thinking in the "welcome everyone" group, or to anyone in the forums in particual, but to some people I met during my real life.

Said that...

My idea is that people has the right to be welcomed in a country when their want to get integrated, when they learn the lenguaje asap, follow the laws of the hosting country and do not want to impose outer costumes. Keeping their costumes sounds perfect to me, I actually think it' s nice to see "arabian week" or "Latin friday" in my city, because I have the right to go there or not (I usually pop up there to take a look)... When they FORCE me to be "arabic", "latin", "asian" or whatever you can imagine I don't like it that much.

I sorta understand ghettos, and I don't think inmigrants are 100% guilty of that... I think they are forced to live there, somehow.

Honestly, I don' t think nobody (Pro-"everybody is welcome, no matter if they deserve it or not" or the pro-"nobody's welcome, no matter if they deserve to be welcomed or not") has the complete truth in this discussion but what really annoys me is that the "everybody' s welcome"'s  posture is so popular that they are not able to hear the other side, or consider that they are not 100% right.

My deepest and sinceres condolences, InC.

I am in a weird loving situation as well now, but I don' t really want to post about it...

Maybe the spanish case is a bit extreme, because our government is mainly supported by PSOE, which has a long history of alliance with islamism (No matter if moderate of not) anti-christianism and anti-semitism.

So, yes, Islam here basically has letter of Marque.

But we do really want inmigrants to settle? When I ask to some people about their opinions about little girls wearing Chaddor no matter if they want or not, the answer I use to receive is something like: "It' s their culture! A millenarian one! Who are you to judge them? Who are you to assume that our costumes are better than theirs? Respect them!!!"

So... Do we want integrated inmigrants or not? Because some arguments here are quite contradictory...

Some people here claim that inmigrants settle well...

When that very people is prooved that they do not they answer "No problem... They have their right of not settle, if they don' t want!".

I don' t understand...

Well guys.... Maybe your leaders are sensitive and give to the inmigrants what they deserve... ^_^ My dear president Zapatero gives them more. 

Nacho, amigo, he just wrote he's been to a doctor several times!

Eeeek... I must stop replying to threads after just taking a glance to the initial post... 

Hudders, that' s quite true in a good economical situation. Situation is soooo good that people say: "Hey, I could work in job which requires no skills... But I don't really need it, my dad has money, he can pay a bit to me, I have two rented appartments, the government has money and can pay to me every month... I can wait a bit till I find something I like, or I can go on studying till have the necessary skills for applying for something better!"

When the economy is not that good, that people want the "no skill required jobs". What happens then? That jobs are occuppied by foreign people... Or even worse. That foreign people becomes unemployed, and they start to receive money from the government... Which is seen as non sensible by BNP voters.

*Warning*I am not saying their opinion is the correct one, I am just saying WHICH is their opinion.


On the other hand, there' s something weird about inmigration... I mean, imagine you want to build a golf club... You are three partners who like golf, and you discover that, for building the club, you need 100,000,000 $.

You need to build the terrain, pay to the builders, pay the machines... After the initial investment, you decide that every month every partner will have to pay 100 bucks as a membership fee.

And now imagine one of the partners says "33,000,000 $?!?!?! That' s a lot! I am not going to pay! Golf is not worth of paying that cypher!" and he leaves the society.

And two months after the golf course is done, ather two of the partners paid 50,000,000 $ each, he comes back, and says "Hey... I like golf! May I join in? I will pay that monthly 100 bucks, of course!"

What would you reply to him? Exactly.

Same happens with inmigration... Every society paid a big price for being as it is. Every citizen of that country, or its ancestors paid a price. Wars, revolutions, taxes... Honestly, I don't see fair that everyone can come to my country and have my same rights... As I would never expect to go to a wealthier country than mine and ask for the same rights as every citizen of that place from the first day.

While the inmigrant works (A bit of his work is going for social care, I think is fair he can receive assistance if he pays for it) it' s okay, but if he gets uneployed, many people think he should leave the country... That's what happened when we (Spanish people) emigrated to Germany, we went there with a contract, and when it was over we became illegals.

It's difficult for me to see the logic in people coming here, without contract, and start receiving money from the social care, a social care system that my granddad, my father, my mother, suffered to create.

And what I can't uderstad at all is inmigrats having MORE RIGHTS that the citizens of the country! Here, foreign people have some kind of "Compensative Advantages for inmigrants". I don't know if it' s a way of saying "welcome" or what, but if you are an inmigrant here you have free lenguaje classes, free uneployment (no matter if you worked or not), free social care for babies, advantages for nurseries (You automatically enter into a public nursery if you are foreign... result=public nuerseries have 70-80-90% of foreign kids...) Are we becoming crazy or what???

So... I would never vote for BNP... But I would never dare to say they are stupids, or that their message is not valid, or anti-democratic. It' s a message, period! It's like "the greens". Some of the things they say are so stupid (Some of those parties basically advocate for going back to the middle age...) But some people vote them, not because "they agree 100% with the message" but because they think "maybe having a parliament with 10% of people deffending an extreme message will work for the powerfull people to, at least, make something..."

Not wanting to be a moderator, but do you people really still post health issues here? Something serious can be going on and you might need to be diagnosed, go to the doctor, for God' s shake!

Hehehe... It' s funny that it's been preciselly Boyd (AKA "I give a shit about famous deaths") who opened this thread... 

Anyway, RIP mr. Carradine...

On the other way, Mr. Layabout, while I agree that "if you participated in the democracy game" you do have the right to complain about the results if your party does not win, pushing that right too far might make you fall into an antidemocratic terrain.

People must respect what majority says, at least in a certain degree...

Reply to paragraph 2)

Hey, that' s what I said! Voting gives you power to complain, because you PARTICIPATED in the political live... Of course, taking that complains too far away would enter into the terrain of antimocracy, but sensible complains are Ok.

Not voting at all gives you no right to complain.

Reply to paragraph 1) I think that if you do something with no right to do it (Complaining about politics if you had not voted) you are being childish. You don't agree? Okay, no probs!

Actually my point is that my point is that taking a shit about politics before people vote and complaining after the election is done is a childish tantrum... I was not directly accussing you of that because I have no way of knowing how involved you are in politics, but I know there are a lot of people who like to have this "anti-system spirit", not getting involved in politics or even not voting, living happy and proud of "not giving a shit about that useless social conventionalisms like voting"...

And when people votes and people says something they don't like, they complain.

Undemocratic and childish, imo.

Being interested before and after the elections is ok.
Not being interested before and after the elections is ok.
Not being interested before and getting interested after the elections is childish, undemocratic and hypocrital.

Is that going to happen by a forum discussion?

WOW!

I don't want to break your bubble but posting about things do not sollute them. I am sorry, I know that regularilly bringing stuff like that here calms your conscience but it actually works for... nothing.

I think people should worry about the results of the elections before people vote. Having an active participation in the democracy game, asking people to vote this party or the other is, as far as I know, considered legal.

Doing it after is, in my opinion, not... Actually, if I am not mistaken, going against what people vote is just the opposite to democracy... Democracy is allow people to talk, and hear what they say. They say "BNP"? Okay, let' s start working from today so next time they won't say it.

But, honestly, if the only act people do about it is express their rage in some forums in the internet then that sounds to me like a childish tantrum.

What do you have against Banque Nationale de Paris???

I have been browsing for images of MIR, and I must say that, whereas I was a bit skepting at the beginning, it looks promising... and hey! It has the "Red button" feature that allows you to convert the modern game into the original, what else can you ask for?

I agree with JBurger... I have seen the images and they made me feel a bit... "Eeeek".