Messages

The last two days of the "suspended campaign" and the "reflexion" day were disgusting... Everyone who saw the possibility to gain PP's votes made a dirty game. When I mean dirty game, I mean, lying.

I should have seen as "legal" to claim: You've put Spain in the aim of Al-Quaeda for helping Bush, and you haven't been able to protect us!

But PSOE never used that... PSOE said that PP consciently lied when told that it was ETA, but PP actually informed with difference of MINUTES when the evidences started to aim to Al-Quaeda.

Tell people that a party is consciently lying about 200 dead people is unadmissible... specially if they're not doing it.

The government announced saturday that there was a video in a mosque claiming the responsability of Al-Quaeda... People went to bed (The previous day of voting) knowing that it was Al-Quaeda. MOST of the governments of any country should have told nothing about the evidences aiming al-Quaeda till after the elections ("It was necessary to keep the secret to help the police works, bla bla bla...")

Nobody should have really complained against PP more than in many of the scandals that PSOE had in its recent past... But PP acted in the line of its PRINCIPLES.

PP is not really my cup of tea. Whereas the economy management has been called "Miraculous", I really felt that Aznar was keeping too many attention in keeping personal wars sheltered by his absolute majority in the government, in spite of taking care of the confidence that the spanish population gave to him.

In addition, I never really liked PP's attitude in front of the historical communities.

But PSOE is not better... I think I am going to pass 4 years without taking attention to politics.

At least... the new Prime Minister is "culé" (FC Barcelona Fan)

Congratulations anf good luck with the new website...

* Farlander downloads the TwinDesign Entertainment Logo...

Which aims to the same direction I told before: Terrorism is their business and they will allways find a reason to go on.

Thanks Yufs.

But in the next round there will be 7 players... What are you going to do?

Or will you count like in the profissional tornaments, with everyone playing against all and suming one point per victory and 1/2 per draw?

Sorry if this has been explained before...

7 islamists arrested: 5 moroccan, 2 indian and 2 muslim spanish...

It's evident that this hasn't added points to my "religion-o-meter"...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/spain_bombings_arrests

I think that the decission of choosing the design who hasn't disliked anybody is wise...

the ETA prisoners started to shout "Hoorrays" when they realised of how serious was the attack... They had to be taken away because the other prisoners wanted to lynch them. I post this because ETA still has a romantic aura over it... No matter if they did it or not, but they're happy.

Let me post the evidences aiming to basques and Al-Quaeda... Take your own conclussions:

Aiming to ETA: ETA tried to make a big attack in Madrid 4 times before, in new Year's eve in 2002, last September, in 24th December 2003 and 8 days before the "11-M".

In adittion, ETA put 13 bag bombs in a sky station this past Xmas...

- ETA usually denies the responsability at the beginning when the strikes are too bloody (HiperCor, Barcelona, 1988 (21 kills) and Madrid 1976 (11 kills).

- ETA was weak, "old fashioned" if compared with islamic groups, and it needed a big strike to enter in the international stage again.

Aiming in the opposite direction of ETA:

- ETA uses alluminiun detonators, the ones used in Madrid were made of cooper (But they were also spanish...)

- ETA usually aims for bankers, militars and politicians. If the bomb is located in a "civilian" place, they usually make a phonecall just to cause material damages.

- ETA and the spokesman of their politic equivalent have denied any "responsability" (Which has to be taken with care, they know that people can vote socialist if they believe that Al-Quaeda was behind the strikes)

- The material was not "cloratite?" but "Goma2 heco" (Rubber 2, a spanish bombing material, probably robbed in a quarry) ETA has "historically" used Goma 2, but in the past years they were using "cloratite".

Aiming to Al-Quaeda:

- The vehicle used by the terrorist had a tape with verses of the Corán (A tape that can be sold anywhere, I can say...)

- An integrist group claimed for the responsability of the attacks in a Muslim digital diary of London (This is a small Pakistaní group which never made anything out of Pakistán, but claimed a lot of false attacks, I.E. the strikes in Istambul and the Energy cut in New York... We can also say that the claim has been cosidered by experts made "A little bit too soon, and a little bit too clear...")

So... decide: The style is Al-Quaeda, but ETA was looking for something like that a long time ago. There are some circumstancial evidences that aim to Al-Quaeda, but ETA seems to be overjoyed if the Popular Party looses support by this, it all can be a trap.

I was going to post... hey! Isn't Dark Stalkey that guy in the second take? Then I realised it was all a crappy Photoshop by Marky Mint, with Chris Jones, even...  Thanks M0ds  

Official list of identified corpses (127 at the moment) We can find 12 nationalities (Bolivian, Peruan, Morrocoean, Polish, Cuban...):

Abad Quijada, Eva Belén.

Abril Alegre, à“scar.

Aguado Rojano, Florencio.

Alonso Rodríguez, Juan Alberto.

àlvarez González, María Josefa.

Aparicio Somolinos, María Nuria.

Arenas Barroso, Alberto.

Astocondor Masgo Neil Hebe.

àvila Jiménez, Ana Isabel.

Badajoz Cano, Miguel Angel.

Ballesteros Ibarra, Susana.

Barahona Imedio, Javier.

Barajas Diaz, Gonzalo.

Bedoya, Gloria Inés.

Benito Samaniego, Rodolfo.

Bogdan, Livia.

Brasero Murga, Florencio.

Bryk Alina, María.

Cabrejas Burillo, María Pilar.

Cabrero Pérez, Rodrigo.

Cano Martínez, Alicia.

Carrillero Baeza, José María.

Carrión Franco, Alvaro.

Casas Torresano, Francisco Javier.

Castillo Muñoz, Cipriano.

Castillo Sevillano, María Inmaculada.

Centenera Montalvo, Sara.

Cisneros Villacis, Oswaldo Manuel.

De Benito Caboblanco, Esteban.

Martín de las Heras Correa, Sergio.

De Luna Ocaña, Miguel.

De Miguel Jiménez, àlvaro.

Del Amo María Fernanda.

Del Amo Aguado, Juan Carlos.

Del Río Menéndez, Marta.

Del Río Menéndez, Nuria.

Díez Hernández, Beatriz.

Djoco, Sam.

Duran, Santiago María Dolores.

El Amrati, Osama.

Encinas Soriano, Sara.

Fernández àvila, Carlos Marino.

Ferrer Reymado, Rex.

Figueroa Bravo, Héctor Manuel.

Gallardo Olmo, José.

Gallego Triguero, José Raúl.

Gámiz Torres, María Pilar.

García Alfageme, Abel.

García Arnaiz, Juan Luis.

García Fernández, Beatriz.

García García-Moniño, María de las Nieves.

García González, Enrique.

García Sánchez, José.

Garrote Plaza, Javier.

Gil Pérez, Ana Isabel.

Gómez Gudiña, à“scar.

González Gago, Félix.

González García, àngelica.

González Grande, Teresa.

González Roque, Elías.

Gracia García, Juan Miguel.

Gutiérrez García, Berta María.

Hermida Martín, Pedro.

Iglesias López, Alejandra.

Izquierdo Asanza, Pablo.

Jaro Narrillos, María Teresa.

Laforga Bajón, Laura Isabel.

León Moyano, María Victoria.

Lominchar Alonso, María del Carmen.

López Menchero Moraga, José María.

López Ramos, María Cristina.

Mancebo Zaforas, Francisco Javier.

Marín Mora, Antonio.

Martín Pacheco, Luis Andrés.

Martín Rejas, María Pilar.

Martínez Rodríguez, Carmen Mónica.

Melguizo Martínez, Mirian.

Mengibar Jiménez, Javier.

Michell Rodríguez, Michael.

Mopocita Mopocita, Victor.

Mora Donoso, Encarnación.

Moreno Santiago, Eugenio.

Moris Crespo, Juan Pablo.

Muñoz Lara, Juan.

Narvaez de la Rosa, Francisco José.

Nogales Guerrero, Ismael.

Novellón Martínez, Inés.

Orgaz Orgaz, Miguel Angel.

Pastor Pérez, Juan Francisco.

Pedraza Pino, Josefa.

Pedraza Rivero, Mirian.

Pinel Alonso, Felipe.

Plasencia Hernández, Martha Scarlett.

Polo Remartínez, María Luisa.

Prieto Humanes, Miguel Angel.

Quesada Bueno, Francisco Antonio.

Ramírez Bedoya, John Jairo.

Ramos Lozano, Laura.

Rodríguez Casanova, Jorge.

Rodríguez Castell, Luis.

Rodríguez Sánchez, Francisco Javier.

Rogado Escribano, Ambrosio.

Romero Sánchez, Cristina.

Sabalete Sánchez, Antonio.

Sánchez López Sergio.

Sánchez Quispe, Juan Antonio.

Sánchez-Dehesa Francés, Balbina.

Santamaría García, David.

Sanz Morales, Juan Carlos.

Sanz Pérez, Eduardo.

Senent Pallarola, Guillermo.

Serrano Lastra, Miguel Antonio.

Serrano López, Rafael.

Sierra Seron, Federico Miguel.

Simón González, Donino.

Soler Iniesta, Susana.

Soto Arranz, Carlos.

Subervielle Marion, Cintia.

Szpila Danuta, Teresa.

Tenesaca Betancourt, José Luis.

Toribio Pascual, Iris.

Tortosa García, Carlos.

Utrilla Escribano, Jesús.

Valderrama López, José Miguel.

Valdés Ruiz, Saúl.

Viilela Fernández, David.

Zamora Gutiérrez, Juan Ramón.

Rest in peace.

SSH wrote a good point: ETA does not just want the independence of the Pais Vasco... they also claim for lands in France and Navarra... They also count with àlava, a basque nations governed by "Unión Alavesa" (part of the Popular Party). It is quite clear demmand things that can't be archieved. Which is the purpose of that? Imo, their intention is to delay the conflict as much as possible.

On the other hand, whereas people vote independist parties, this very parties are reluctant to give the final step of claiming for the independence... They're pragmant, they just want a high level of authonomy, and if there was a referenda about independence, people should say no, that's quite clear.

For instance, Catalunya has been governed during 20 years by a nationalist party and they have never been INTERESTED in making a serious claim for independence.

The referenda stuff is just useless, because terrorists wouln't give up if they loose it.

Edit: 199 deaths, the last one a 7-month baby girl.

There is a basic problem if we talk with terrorists:

a) If we talk to somebody who kills 200... which is the message we send to the little terrorists groups which have killed, let's say, 10 people? kill 190 more people or we won't take you seriously?

Remember that there is another terrorist group in Spain, Grapo, and if they see that the bombing is a good argument to sit in a table and negociate they can feel tempted to increase the fight.

In addition, we can't really use the IRA like an example that terrorists can abandon the fight and negotiate, because the target of IRA was very clear from the beginning: The Ulster to reach the same status as the "free" Ireland. On the other hand we have most of the rest of the terrorist groups, whose objectives are vaguely defined and can be regularily "updated" by their leaders if needed.

Let me put an example: ETA wants a "free and socialist Basque County"... So... Where would them draw the line? In the independence? Probabl not, I think that they go on fighting if they were independent, but ruled by PNV (conservative) because they are also radical socialists. Actually, I think that they're just a mab with an excuse to work in something they love... kill people.

So... why talk to them? We won't never be able to give them something they would feel acceptable to stop fighting.

Here is a list of WOUNDED people... If you want to click, just for curiosity, notice that there are a lot of foreign surnames... Another show of the nosense of terrorism:

http://www.mir.es/atentadomadrid/heridoshospitales.htm

There is a thing I want to ask... When people claims to be patient with the terrorists... who do they think the terrorists are? Poor guys, romanthic fighters who are fighting for a noble reason or something?

I think that terrorists are criminals whose work is to kill, and the political stuff is just an EXCUSE they use to make it. We're talking of rubbish, inhuman beings, psycos who really enjoy blowing people's lifes, because they are just fu*ing bastards who have envy of the relaxed existence of the civilians...

The nice image that Hollywood gives of the terrorist (A lovely family man who has lost his family and fights against the opressor...) bah, rubbish... They're a mob... Do you imagine what could happen in the Spanish government says tomorrow: "Well, you got it, Pays Basque will be independent!"? What would that web of terrorist do? They would be unemployed! I can bet that they will find something to complain and start the "war" again.

We can't negotiate with them, becase they don't want nothing!

What should the US do to avoid Al Quaeda strikes? To abandon Saudi Arabia? That's impossible, most of the arabs WANT the americans to be there and to make business with them.

In fact... Al Quaeda demmands all the "occidental" signs to dissapear of the holy lands of Islam... We're talking that his bastards won't stop the fight till the last can of Coke dissapear of their countries... Do you think that his is logical???

What should do the Jews for not being attacked by Palestinians? The foundational letter of the Palestinian terrorist groups want the total destruction of the sionism entity, anywhere they are, so... if we want the Palestinian terrorist groups to be dissolved we should pray for a Jews massive suicide???

We can't negotiate with them because they demmand something impossible to do.

So... we must eliminate them... Maybe not killing them, but we surely must take them out of the civilian life.

We really appreciate the encouragements, but I haven't really be directly affected by this, I'm 500 Kms. away from Madrid, but I suppose that when you say "Farlander" you just use me as the most visible part of a Country/community.

But, as you can see, we are all affected by this in some way. Aussie said that he had friends that COULD have used that train... Lorena told me that a friend of her has a cousin who use that very train, but she was sleep this morning, thanks Lord... I have a friend at the Uni who regularily used this trains.

Actually, my town is target of terrorist strikes during the summer season, I can't feel sure.

The feeling now is changing from death penalty to a more relaxed one, like perpetual penalty... I think that the good people doesn't want to join the club of the killers... As much time happens, I start to feel like that.

But I share that people who make conscient acts aimed to kill 200 people are not really people.

Where do I draw the line? Good question, but I think that 100 deaths deserve at least to put some attention on it.

The "funny" thing of all is that in Spain nobody can be more that 30 years in prison. Each day you work during your penalty (And you must work in prison, because there's nothing to do) removes one day of penalty. That means that the penalty for this bastards is redouced to 15 years.

Having in mind that people reaches "third degree" when they accomplish 2/3 of the penalty, we are talking that a 176 people killer can be in the street in 10 years.

One thing is not to agree with the death penalty, I understand and respect it, but another thing is to be too naive and to see how this people laughs of us.

The members of ETA, enter to the prison saying to the familiars of the victims "hey, don't worry for me, I'll be back in 3 years!"

That's disgusting.

We had enough of laws which rather protect the criminal than then victims.

Ok... No death penalty... what about perpetual penalty?

That's why I claim for a death penalty who can be ceased by the familiars... Also I just want it for exceptional cases, not just like in the U.S. when 10% of the cases of death penalties are based on mistakes in the trials...

I just demmand a special death penalty for this, I am just talking of 2,3 death penalties for decades (I.E. Oklahoma, Madrid, New York...)

The national symbol against terrorist is to paint your hands in white. It started 5 or 6 years ago, when ETA kidnapped a guy and demmanded to join all the prisoners to the Basque country before two days.

They finally killed him , his name was Manuel Blanco ("White"), but it created a special feeling that made ETA reduce its activity during this time (, fortunately, untill today)



Here is the URL:

http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/whiteHands.gif

I've prepaired an avatar with white hands... I wish that TOMORROW SATURDAY, a lot of people changes its avatar to this, and changes his signature.

It may probably mean nothing, but this day has been named by the European Union as the day of the victims of the terrorism... So I think that this should be cool. If this has echo in the community I would really like to be mentioned in the AGS magazines and a mention in the banner in the top of the forums...

As a Spanish, I can inform... Basque nationalists, joining the three moderate parties, sum up more than 65% of the Basque population.

The main Basque (EAJ, PNV, or Nationalist Basque party) has total majority, it doens't need alliances to rule, actually.

The "Euskal Habertzaleak" (Basque socialists), the party who wants terrorist fight, has approx 5-10% of the votes.

So.... We can say that Basques want independence, but not terrorism.

In addition... The discussion Al-Quaeda or ETA has not a lot of sense now, but ETA was preppaired two "death Caravans" in Madrid before, with more of 500 kgs. of dinamyte, but they fortunately failed by the work of the police.

No problem, Daniel, in fact, I posted political matters in this thread, talking about death penalty. Please Minimi, let's discuss this in Boris' thread.

http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12314