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Thanks for the advices... Man, I have a lot of friends here in AGS, and I wanted to share with friends, I knew that the *hide* spoiler was just a way to be polite... I want to share this, so, hide feature off.

I want to clarify something that apparently created missunderstood. The girl I met was not my "girlfriend". She was a friend and a girl I was with (for one night) one month or so shortly after starting with Lorena. Apparently just "another" night success. That was 9 years ago, I think...

But after some years I started to call her, in my mind, the "rubber duck". She was not the girl I was most hooked up, or the one that made me feel worse, or better... But her image came back to me once or two per year, as a rubber duck that always manages to float in the water, no matter how deep you push it. That was a symptom, I didn't know that.

She did not want to "rush" a relationshin inmediatelly after me finishing a 9-year old one... She didn' t actually that she was in love with me. She just made me "feel" she was, not by words, but by actions: I explain: She is a geologist, or she wants to be, and her dream was to go to Mexico, South Africa, Australia... When we started to chat I told her that she had to go, that even if I fell in love with her I wouldn't allow her not to accomplish her dreams. It should be a "torpedo" in our relationship to start it being me just an abstacle for her dreams. It should have been too shellfishy and she should have never forgiven it.

But suddenly one day she told me that her dream was not to do that anymore... That dream was vanished, replaced by me. So, she never told me "I love you" (She is very reluctant to use those words) but something she was acting like she was... That's more than I was feeling with Lorena (see the examples I gave to you before). One girl was saying "no" to something "good" for her. The other was not saying "no" to something "bad" for her. I think it's impossible to compare.

So, thanks... We will start slow. We even might not start at all! But, at the moment, we are "happy" together, so, I don't see no reason for not dating! The "usual" things "officially engaged" people do, like dating with the parents, spread it to the 4 winds, etc...? No.

I wrote the 3 or 4 things that annoyed me of Lore... but they are just 3 or 4 things in 9 years... It's very few! I love her, so, please, no reproaches or to side on with a part! I still love her, so, I just have the message: "Staying with her (for the wrong reasons) would, in the end, hurt her more".

I agree... But she is still the lovely girl that you met. If you ser in msn, or in any chatroom or something, be sure to say hello to her with my blessing.

thanks for the words of support.

Nacho.

Hello friends of AGS...

Here comes a long post about feelings, so, if you don't feel in the mood of saying something positive, please, please, stop reading because I have a feeling of complete sorrow and the last thing I need is someone making jokes of my situation. I will post it in hidden, so, only those who are really interested in the topic or those who know me can read it...

Spoiler

Here's the thing: After 9 years of relation with my beloved friend Lorena yesterday we finished. Some of you, those who have seen us together might say "What? How? You seemed to be so in love!". Yes, it's true. Lore is the person I know I will love more than anybody else in my life. Period. But one thing is to love, and the other thing is to be enamoured. I am not... And it hurts. I would really like to be in love with her, and save her the two terrible days I made her pass this weekend, when I realised of my real feelings (or, to be honest, when I decided that my real feelings were too strong to go on living this lie).

She is kind, polite, she makes me smile, I am happy when I am around... Same as some of my friends do.

But I don't want a friend... I want a girlfriend, it' s different.

I felt like that for a long time ago, maybe 3 or 4 years, but I felt quite comfortable in that situation: I consciently decided to go on with her, even not being in love. She was my little baby, and I was his "dad". To the few people I explained this situation told me that I was not acting correctly, even seeming for me the best option at that moment. Now I see they were right, but if I did what I did, it was by some reasons... let me post them:

I started with her when she was 16... She was quite mature for her age! She had two working parents, and she was taking care of the home almost alone, with not even a little attempt of help of his bother.

His brother is quite intelligent at manipulating his parents. He does not help at home, or even try to get good grades for them to be proud of him, but he is diplomatic with them, he is a good "buddy" of his dad and the "right eye" for mom. It doesn't matter he brings lots of fails in the last grades; He told his dad "Dad, I want to go biking with you!" and the home is full of joy for some hours (He never finally go biking with his dad). Lorena is just the opposite. Worker, studient, selfless... But she is not good at getting along with her parents. She brings good grades, and she receives a short "congratulations". Some minutes after she gets a ruction because the table hasn't set up propperly. Totally unfair.

As an example, once, the "kid" decided to do the Island-Benidorm swimming journey (A local 4 kms. swimming journey) When Lore saw how proud her parents was of doing the journey, she said "I want to do it!". Her face was a face of total illussion... Her mom's reply was "How dare you to want to do it, you are too lazy". Her expression changed to a total illusion to total sorrow... Even not being "in love" with Lore I wanted to be there for those moments... I really wanted to support that girl I love.

As an example. when I started dating Lore, I went to swim a whole summer with Lore and her bro. After two weeks we lost the bus to come home ALL THE DAYS because his brother was too lazy to shower quicky (He was like 40 minutes having a shower) I told his dad, before knowing how he was: "Toni, if he does not have quickliest showers I am going to pick up the bus without him". I thought he was going to support me, his son needed a lesson and needed to be educated.
His reply? "You will do what you want, but her older sister will be with his brother, no matter how he lasts, because she is older and he is a kid (He was a 1,75 m and 85 kilos 14-year old teenager...). But don't worry... I will talk with him and you have my word he won't be late again". We went to swim 90 days. We arrived to the bus on time 2. From that moment I knew the value of my "father's in law's word".

I realised of this and I decided to give Lore the love she does no find at home. She was living a hell at home. I wanted to be a good samaritan and rescue her.

She has not real friends... she is not so kind with people as she is with me, or with Jeremy (She needs to feel totally confident to show how loving and kind she is...), and I don't like that. Some months ago I realised that I was being too protective with her, and I decided to give her some "homeworks". "Meet the old friends again, make a "best freind" apart from me. Show to my parents how lovely you are, talk to my mom, come here to cook once a week, come here to sleep with me from time to time!". She said yes to all, she recognised she needed to do that for being a better person. She did nothing... all excuses:

She cooked once (I assisted her, actually... Which was great, I am happy being with her at the kitchen...) but she forgot to do it the following week.
She only came once to sleep... Because "her parents look her weirdly" the following day. Man, she is 25!!! She has the perfect right to come to sleep with his bf if she wants! She can leave home, if she wants!.
She did not help at my home, (And when I say she did not help I mean that she was leaving the pijama in the same place she took it off, at the floor, or never sat up the table... I am not meaning that she did not clean, or made the ironing... I was demmanding something very reasonable). She was "too tired" of helping at "her home" to help at mine. Okay... She was deciding she preffered to be a slave at her home than being sheltered, secure, at mine. It's a symptom.
And her idea of "getting new friends" was to chat with people at the internet... Sorry, I do it as well, and I appreciate to all of those who hear the problems of people when a friend open your chatbox... But "getting out of the eggshell" is not chatting with a friend when I am at the same room... I had a problem of space too.

So, I realised that she didn't really loves me. She wants me as her support, but nothing else. She can't see it now... But I think it's the best option. Then I met a girl. She was the girl I was with before I started with Lore, 9 years ago... She still loves me, and she wants to do everything for me, even renouncing to her dreams of getting off the country to go on studying... In the balance I have a girl who wants to give everything for me... In the other a girl who does nothing to get away from a situation she hates for me... I am sorry... I tried for some months to go on with Lore, but the weight of one plate of the balance is too high.

What do you think?

[close]

Thanks for the support, guys.

50X50X300 cubits, to be precise, Mr. Matti.

What's the evidence against being a literalist?  I assume your talking about things that seem to be biblical errors.  I believe that if you read the bible closely then the contradictions make sense. (Sometimes you may have to look at  the original Greek or Hebrew. )  In any case if you can give me an example then I'll try to find out the answer and if I can't then I'll concede your point.

A couple of all the animals of the world fitting in an old prehistoric boat.

I've added "God" to my friends list in facebook... and he told me that I was right. He said:

"Do what you want, no worshipping, of course... If you do this you'll enjoy double and suffer half. And of course I invented the Snake, for bringing you curiosity and knowleadge... Don't trust what priests tell you about that matter!"

He told to me.

The moment Eve ate the fruit was the most important moment of history of humanity. Humans gave the Paradise, the shelter of a God, the comfortability away for curiosity and will of knowleadge. I praise Eve and Adam for that. Thanks, dear antecessors, for saying "Frack you!" to that  despot who offered shelter only if you worship Him and with the condition of not touching His beloved stupid fruit. Thanks, dear antecessors, for a thrilling life of good and bad human emotions away of the boring spiritual life that this fascist offered!

Edit: Hehehe... just read Eric' s post... Yeah, just what I meant, mate, I agree! THIS is much better than a life under God's shelter.

["Adam try this wonderful fruit! It has filled my eyes with knowledge and my soul with understanding. Trust me, and eat of this fruit!"]

Read my post again, I said that they were "the Bible students" who came to Lilith's conclussion, not the Genesis.

About your "both were tempted", meaning somehow that my statement that it was Eve who convinced Adam was uncorrect; Well...

Presently, Adam came upon Eve. "Eve what are you doing by the forbidden tree?" Fearful of her sin and what God would do to her, Eve said, "Adam try this wonderful fruit! It has filled my eyes with knowledge and my soul with understanding. Trust me, and eat of this fruit!" Eve could not stand to face the Lord alone and felt that if both of them erred the Lord would grant mercy on them. I appeared and added my own smooth cajolery. Together we convinced Adam even faster than Eve had fell prey to me. I understood how human’s ideals were weakened by advice from a loved one, and how a human easily conformed to the majority. Adam ate of the fruit and his eyes changed, as his soul was charred with sin. He recognized his nakedness and fashioned clothes of palm leaves as Eve had done (In his innocence he had not noticed her clothes before).

If that is not Eve convincing Adam to sin, then what it is? Do you need her to aim him with a Glock gun or what?

In some other episode says that Eve was created with an Adam's rib. So, which is this other woman who was created in the same moment as Adam some episodes ago? Bible students came with a funny conclussion: It was Lilith, a "defective" creation who voluntarilly left paradise and became a devil which provoques abortions. Again, we have some "believers" principles, here:

-"God" is perfect... Abortions must be something caused by devil (Ha!)
-God can make defective creations, but he is still perfect. (Mmmm???)
And
-The worst things "God" did in Genesis were female. Lilith was a devil, and Eve forced Adam to eat the Forbidden Fruit. (We all know religion is a bit mysoginist, eh?).

I have Faith in the flying spaghetti monster... Simple and straighforward too... I wish believers in "God" were as respectfull with my Faith as they ask me to be with theirs.

Oh, the usual "Please stop this thread which had 500 replies because, whereas it seems to be interesting and/or funny to the community, I don't really like it" post!

I was missing it!

"I don't accept your faith if you don't accept mine!" - how stupid is that! If you really believe that accepting one anothers faith is right you should just live by that - even if others don't accept yours.

Why should I accept your faith if you have prooved to be untolerant enough for not accepting mine?

And please... Don't tell me that what I say is stupid... You seem to believe that a couple of all the animals in earth fit in a crappy prehistoric boat... 

Guitar hero: Thanks. God does not give proof of his existence. Same as the Almighty Universal Unicorn...

That's why YOU, believers, YOU, who feel so attacked when somebody questions your faith, should apply that think Jesus said ("Do to the others what you want the others do to you") and accept that "God" is not the only answer. For me, the answer is the Almighty Universal Unicorn... If you don't accept my Faith, I will feel legitimated for not accepting yours.

Honestly, do you think that the circumstances of how the story was witnessed, told, written and changed through the centuries makes is believerable?

EDIT: I've thought a better way to question it: "Do you think the story has the necessary guarantees to be considered believerable?"

My answer is NO. Yours, if you are a sensible guy should be no as well... Remember, I am no asking if you think it happened... I am just asking about if you consider is has the necessary circumstances to be believed.

Does that mean that I can say it didn't happen, or that I have an evidence that it didn't happen? No...

Of course I can't deny 100% that fairies, dragons and elves existed, or show evidences that they did not exist. You can't either.

But that's not how the world goes... Exceptional statements need exceptional evidences to be taken seriously. If a man comes to me saying "We went to moon" I wouldn't trust him. After seeing moon rocks, dozen of pics and hearing hundreds of witnesses of the launchings I would admitt it happened. Where are your evidences? What makes your believe undistinguishable from that bunch of nerds that honestly believe that Star Wars are real? (To clarify: Those nerds exist. Star Wars is a real, official religion in England)

My point... why should I respect your beliefs when you (Believers of "God") are the less respectfull (about beliefs, I mean) community ever?

@Jim's statement: "You don' t need to believe in Bible to believe in God". Then, you are not a trully christian... You can call yourself an mystic, or a spiritual person or whatever, but not a christian. "Mystics" can take zillion of different shapes, from looneys to virtually atheistics, so, explain exactly which are your beliefs before we can go on.

@Guitar's statement: "Wrong axioms take to wrong conclussions". Okay... I was trying to find an evidence of the existence of God... I thought that maybe a God inspired book, flawless, could be a good evidence. I think we agree here Bible is not that.

So, what do we do? Go on looking for evidences? Some "believers" tell me: "You see things. Things must have a creator. There you have the evidence" I reply "Then, if everything must need a creator, who is God's daddy?" They reply "God is the only thing that didn't need a creator".

My reply: "No, the Great Universal Unicorn is the only thing that doesn't need a creator".

My arguments for that statement? Well... at the moment, exactly the same you gave to me to support your statement. A big, round, nice and bright CERO.

Some of them tell me that there is no need to look at the things around bike to believe in God... The way He makes them feel, how joyfull they are when then think on Him is proof enough.

My reply: "The same way Aria Giovanni makes me feel".

Their reply is a quite angry one, telling that you can't compare a deity with a nude model... my reply is easy: "How can you tell? Do you have an empathy machine that makes you know how I feel and you can compare both feelings that way?"

I am quite aware that their reasoning is actually quite simplier: "I am a believer and I know that I am better than you. I won't recognise it, because it's politically uncorrect, but we believers are better, that's why I dare to say that what I feel for God is stronger to anything you can feel".

My reply to those zealots? I can't type it here, this forums are moderated.

I don't say that the church is all bad, there must be some good people in there, too.

Who here said that church is all bad? I say, and I' ve been saying it during the whole thread, is that is has good and bad things, pros and cons... AS ANY OTHER HUMAN ASPECT OF LIFE. Cause "God", "Religion" and "Church" is human created, not the opposite. If "God" created humans, things "purely" related to "God" should be perfect, don't you think so? But no... His church is corrupted, as corrupted as any other human terrenal organisation, and his "books", the original ones, the ones that are supposedly "closest" to Him, are misogynist, homophobic, racist and contradictory.

As bad as any other bad human-source book in earth.

I am giving you evidences that all this stuff has a human source. Give me evidences of the contrary. Till then, for me, God and Unicorns will remain in the same "bag". The "bag" of "fantasy stuff".

Of course, if I am discussing of someone about technical mathematics, and he says to me something like "2+2=7" I must put a line, and say "hey... this guy is not skilled enough to talk about technical mathematics... he didn't even knows the basics".

That's what I do with literalistics... Some things are so illogical that if someone comes to me telling "I believe it!" I just say: "Eeeerm... Okay... Good luck, bye!".

That's what I would do if someone comes to me saying he believes in flying pink elephants, and in the middle of the conversation I realise that HE really BELIEVES in PINK ELEPHANTS, you know?

EDIT: I never followed Nazi or Fascist movements, which are the ones which "made people put his knees in the floor to shoot them". Can you say the same of movements which burned people in the town square?

Can you?

Let's agree that we disagree... For me, religion and science might essentially be the same in theory in that aspect (diversity and dynamics aspect) but in the practics, they totally differ. If you ask to a scientist about "principles of sustentation" all of them will explain more or less the same to you. All of them will be able to make a flying model. If you ask several priests something tricky, like for example "Is it ok to have an atheistic homosexual friend" you'll find a different answer per church. That makes no sense for me, sorry.

And guitar_hero... You are not describing a sacred book. You are describing a "choose your own adventure" (or morale) writing.

Because if you reallt believe that  God created a man, something like 5,000 years ago, from mud, and then He took a rib from him and made a woman and from those two all the human race came is not worthy to go on discussing with you.

Yeah, like, Adam was perfect, before he -choose- not to be.
So He created the perfect man, and gave him te right to choose, and the man chose to be less. So don't blame God for the things man choses to do.
If God wanted 'robots' He would have created them.

Well, during my stay in skeptic environments I've learned that is more appropiate to be didactic with believers, trying to explain, to be respectfull with them and hear what they say, no matter how nosense it is, without over reacting...

But honestly... Do you really believe that idiocy???

As said, Misj', it's difficult to argue this because "bible is open"... there is no unique interpretation, but almost one per reader...

That's something that shouldn't happen with a sacred book, IMO.