Socialism

[juncmodule]

I have some pretty strong political ideas. It is hard for me to find a definition for them, but I tend to relate to the Socialist party more than any other.

Basically, I feel that every human being is entitled to food, shelter, health care, and other necessities of modern life. I feel that unemployment should NEVER exist; there is a job for every human. I feel that hunger should NEVER exist; there is surplus food for every starving human. I feel that the government should provide these things and more to EVERY human. I feel that each human should be able to cast his or her individual vote and have it count toward the final vote (popular vote). I feel that nearly every government decision should be made by popular vote (we have the technology to do this).

Is this Socialism? It is my Socialism. I look at Socialism and Socialist ideas and only find links to communism and failed ideas. This is not what I consider Socialism. Hitler and Stalin were no where NEAR Socialist in anything that they did. Communism is not even remotely related to Socialism (at least in the way that it is practiced in this century).

1. What do you think of Socialism?
2. What do you think my form of Socialism is?
3. If you live in a Socialist country or under a Socialist leader, what are your opinion of it?
4. What are your opinions of Socialism throughout history?
5. What are your opinions of Socialist leaders and countries in the world today?
6. Do you think Socialism could ever succeed in the future?

I ask these questions here because these forums provide a doorway into a worldwide opinion. I am currently working on a project that your replies may affect, so please try to keep things constructive. I would like to learn and always leave my opinions on Socialism open; I hope you will do the same (if not in life, at least in this thread).

later,
-junc

[LGM]

It's a great idea.. But as we see, a nation's welfare cannot be placed into the hands of one man.. Especially a corrupt, power-hungry one.. This is what communism is like (mostly)

And yes, we DO have the technology for everyone to vote like that.. But the question is, WILL they?

Socialism is a good idea, but takes ALOT of effort, good faith, and hope in the human race. But seeing as there's always a bad egg somewhere along the line.. I doubt socialism could ever work properly.

[DGMacphee]

There's a joke that goes, "I'm okay with God, it's just his fanclub I can't stand."

I think of socialism the same way.

I like a lot of the principles of socialism. However, I find a lot of socialist activists in Western societies (mainly Australia, from my experience) are confronting to the point of being unfriendly.

[Evil]

I'm all for pure communism. Communism is the purest form of democracy. The only bad thing about it is that it calls for a temporary dictatorship, which usually isnt temporary.

[LGM]

Exactomundaly my point. Well said, DeeGee

[Moox]

Its a form of socialist, Im very active in politics with over 14,000 posts on the nationstates.net forums. I believe in communism, but I also have some evil thoughts such as changing wellfare laws and military benefits.

[Evil]

Oddly, I have those 'evil' thoughts too.

[stuh505]

Basically, I feel that every human being is entitled to food, shelter, health care, and other necessities of modern life. I feel that unemployment should NEVER exist; there is a job for every human. I feel that hunger should NEVER exist; there is surplus food for every starving human. I feel that the government should provide these things and more to EVERY human. I feel that each human should be able to cast his or her individual vote and have it count toward the final vote (popular vote). I feel that nearly every government decision should be made by popular vote (we have the technology to do this).

There are 3 kinds of unemployment:
1) Frictional unemployment - People who are in-between jobs, or recently entered the job market and have not found a job yet.  It is impossible for this type of unemployment to be eliminated, nor should it be. 

2) Cyclical Unemployment - Unemployment due to a decline in demand for labor.

3) Structural Unemployment - Unemployment due to a larger supply of workers in a given field than there is demand for, resulting in some of them to not be able to find work.

It would be impossible for unemployment to never exist.  It is a well-known government fact that unemployment must exist to a small degree between 3-6% in order to have a successful economy where most people prosper.

Also, many people choose to be unemployed.  Other people may have injuries that force them to be unemployed.  Your comment that nobody should ever be unemployed therefore seems not very intelligent or not very well thought out.

You feel that hunger should never exist also.  This may SOUND righteous, but it's not.  What it means is, you want hard-working people to pay to support the people who don't work hard.  This reduces the encouragement to work, because the money isn't going straight to themself, and they know they will still not starve if they don't work...so why work?

Is this Socialism? It is my Socialism. I look at Socialism and Socialist ideas and only find links to communism and failed ideas. This is not what I consider Socialism. Hitler and Stalin were no where NEAR Socialist in anything that they did. Communism is not even remotely related to Socialism (at least in the way that it is practiced in this century).

Is that Socialism?  Who knows, you haven't said anything about your form of government other than what you WANT.  A government is defined by the WAY IN WHICH it governs, not what the results are...so no, it's not your socialism.

1. What do you think of Socialism?

Socialism is an idea borne from before the study of the economy existed.  There was little knowledge on what caused economies to function well.  The concept of Socialism, which you have failed to mention, is to have the government manage the supply of all resources.  This is an incredibly stupid idea, because the government does not have the information to do this, let alone it is a great deal of work.

Every product has a demand that is set by the society, by how much they want it.  In a free market economy, vendors will quickly notice how much people are willing to pay and adjust their prices and stock according to the market, so that whatever people want, there is enough of it to go around.

In a socialist economy, this doesn't happen.  The governemnt cannot respond as quickly to the fluctuations in demand for various products, and as a result, there will not be enough of certain products and too much of others.  So mayb you don't get bread this week, even though you worked your ass off, and waited 10 hours in a line to get it handed out to you. 

There are a lot more problems with socialism, it leads to inflation, your money becomes worthless, everyone becomes poor, nobody works hard, life sucks, socialism sucks.

[Moox]

1) Frictional unemployment - People who are in-between jobs, or recently entered the job market and have not found a job yet.Ã,  It is impossible for this type of unemployment to be eliminated, nor should it be.Ã, 

It has been eliminated before and didnt turn out so well





The nazis considered themselves socialists but where facists infact, Socialism is good aslong as its not liberal to the extreme

[juncmodule]

[lgm] & Evil: I believe there must be a way to integrate Democracy and Socialism in such a way that the dangers of dictatorship do not arise. This is the most major failing point of all forms of socialism, and a big reason why I won't just outright proclaiming myself a Socialist.

DGMacphee: I feel very alone in my world of Socialism. I too, hate 90% of the socialists I encounter. Revolution is often the topic in mind, often violent. Most revolution is non-violent, it is the attempt by the overthrown government to regain power which causes most violence. Most Socialists know this, yet they preach violence as a means to establishing Socialism. This is a quick way to Dictatorship in my opinion. Violent revolution will lead to a violent government.

LostTraveler: I believe that welfare in America is a corrupt and broken system. It keeps people in poverty and unemployment, often offering them more financial reward for remaining an unproductive member of society. By military benefits do you mean spending? I think the usefulness of Special Forces are really overlooked by the current generation of military top brass that served in Vietnam, where Special Forces were hated. It is amazing how 10 to 20 Special Forces men can do the same kind of damage that thousands of soldiers can do, at least politically.

Your comment that nobody should ever be unemployed therefore seems not very intelligent or not very well thought out.

socialism sucks

Are you trying to insult me!? What the heck was that? Not very constructive and not open minded at all.

Jeez. :

Regarding unemployment: Of course there is a period of job placement but, I don't see that as unemployment. You latched onto that a little bit too literally. There are plenty of people in America that are more than willing and skilled enough to work that do not have jobs. This is rarely due to a lack of work. There are many factors in American society that result in skilled and willing workers to go without employment. As I said, I am open with my opinions and agree that "should NEVER exist" was a bad choice of words.

Regarding hunger: This is where I start to scare people when I talk about Socialism...I go back and forth on this so don't latch onto this one either:

I believe that people that do not participate in society, through work or education, should be eliminated from society.

However, this sort of psycho thinking wouldn't matter if humans would just evolve to a point where they don't have to be so selfish and think things like: "money isn't going straight to themself". I strongly believe that we have become intelligent enough and more aware of the world around us in the past century that we could reach this point. I feel that capitalism has reinforced this type of self centered thinking.

Regarding your general statements on Socialism: This is why I have problems with Socialism. It's not rock solid. I believe that Socialism has it's place in social systems while capitalism has it's place in economic systems. Unlike every Socialist I have encountered, I do not absolutely dismiss capitalism.

I hope that you will reconsider your attacks on me (that is how I interpeted your post, perhaps you didn't mean it that way). I started this topic to learn, not preach.

later,
-junc

[InCreator]

Hm. My opinion is that communism would be the most perfect form of civilization, if there wasn't human element that can be called "greed" of some other word representing that.

Estonia, where I live, was the first one which declared independence when Soviet Union broke, but I wasn't that small at this time, and I do rememeber even times when we were called Soviet Socialist Respublic of Estonia.

Basically, everything was alot better. In some ways. There was no hunger. Even if you didn't have any money, you were able to pick some empty bottles from street and give em away, and you got plenty of money to buy food, because it was so cheap.
Everyone had opportunity to have education. Even a dumbest guy could go to univesity if he wanted to. Luxuries like going to cinema, theatre, restaurant, vacation, eat well and so on were so cheap that everyone could afford them. And people could live well even if they worked as a janitor or some other low-payment job.

All the streets in our cities were called with glorious names, representing work, peace or names of famous people such as scientists, astronauts(cosmonauts), writers and so on. Public attitude was different. Being a good worker, honest, productive and loyal to the idea was alot more important than having a neat car or big house. Even among young people.

What I do miss about these times was soviet form of police - milita. People were AFRAID of milita. Not like on present day, where crooks laugh at police. Milita first beated you down and then asked questions, not vice versa. Rude, yes, but it worked!
Streets were alot more safe.

There was lot of propaganda and fear, and this is the worst thing about these times. If named human element wouldn't exist, there would be no need for kids singing songs at school about how great Lenin was or any other of brain-washing all of the time. People would follow the idea by them own, without need to remember them that they must follow the party and ideology and so on. This is why such good things won't work.
And this is sad.

[juncmodule]

I met a girl from Romania last summer. Her family left Romania because her father couldn't find work. He had a steady job under the Communist government and they were rather well off. He is now a city bus driver in Columbus, Ohio (not the best paying or funnest job in the world).

Another thing she told me. In Romania she used to eat whatever she wanted, never worried about diet. Within a month of living in America and eating the same things she gained a lot of weight. We load our vegetables and, well everything, with so many preservatives and what not. It's really annoying to hear things like that. We are so bloated and stuck in how we do things that we don't consider our health, environment, or future.

I always tend to hear stories like this from Republics of the Soviet Union. I wonder if it was just republics that have citizens that feel that way.

The Romanian girl said she would prefer to live in Romania under Communism to living in America or a Romania as it is today. Would you or your family?

later,
-junc

[InCreator]

Ah, and I just remembered - It's absolutely horrible how american movies and media present Russia or Communism, especially ones made during cold war. Even games today. Hitman 2? Ghost Recon? Even weather! All missions in Moscow show it as a cold, snowy place. So stupid. At the summer there is 30 degrees of Celsius and they always try toÃ,  show how cold and shitty place this is. Ack. And language. Like - I saw "Sum of All Fears" recently. They have an actor playing Russian president there - but his accent is so bad that no real russian could understand what the hell he's talking! I speak a little russian, so I know. Some other actors, in absolutely non-important roles talk alot better. Actually, I can't think of an american movie, where russian language is really real. Like, okay with this russia thing, but same goes for socialism, communism and whatsoever.

[MrColossal]

Hopefully my mentioning them won't clue them in to this thread but that's what my point with the Newsbots was...

The human element as increator puts it ruins so many good ideas. Lying, cheating, stealing, oppressing, envying, and various other words that end in ing...

I don't mean this as a joke or being silly but man, I wish the earth had a not insane AM controling it.

And when you ask if I think socialism could ever work you mean on a country based scale?

Because socialism is working in places around the world just on small scales. Even anarchy is working but again, small scale, around a hundred people. So do I think socialism can work on a grand scale? Not with the current human intelligence. And intelligence isn't what i really mean... But I'm sure you understand what I mean. I don't mean since the majority of working class people don't understand quantum mechanics that socialism doesn't work I mean while people are still so afraid and so back stabbing and so out for themselves.

edit for increator's last comment: i think we've been over this before, you hated Armageddon. Well, it's just a crap movie and in games a lot of the time they don't portray the US as such a great place. Max Payne springing to mind. Maybe you should make a game that highlights the positives or the actual view of Russia. [my friend Zak spent a semester in Russia and he said it was great that they salted bread for his welcoming and the ladies were pretty, and there was a store front that had a large samurai statue attacking a praying mantis that was attacking a city... Please focus on that aspect! hehe]

[DGMacphee]

DGMacphee: I feel very alone in my world of Socialism. I too, hate 90% of the socialists I encounter. Revolution is often the topic in mind, often violent. Most revolution is non-violent, it is the attempt by the overthrown government to regain power which causes most violence. Most Socialists know this, yet they preach violence as a means to establishing Socialism. This is a quick way to Dictatorship in my opinion. Violent revolution will lead to a violent government.

I also find that most socialists in Western societies are pretentious, angsty kids fresh out of high school who develop an overly-moral social conscience and immediately identify with socialism.

Even though they have no real understanding of how socialism and communism work.

[stuh505]

The human element as increator puts it ruins so many good ideas. Lying, cheating, stealing, oppressing, envying, and various other words that end in ing...

It's not that the human element ruins good ideas, its that the idea just isnt a good one if it doesn't work with the human element.  The attributes you listed are found within all of us.  And I should assume anyone designing a form of government would first assume that most citizens are greedy, lazy, and willing to believe anything that feels good to believe.

[InCreator]

What I did mean, was that maybe we're not ready or even not made to accomplish living in such form of society. Like most Christians fail to live exactly by Ten Commands and million other examples like that. I we hadn't crimes, we would't need police. Police is an instance invented while taking human weaknesses into account, and even FOR it. Socialism seems to be not, it's just based on the idea that everyone works as a team and accepts to be equal. And whenever majority fails to this idea, system starts to break down.

[Nacho]

Just a few ideas about socialism I get in my Machroeconomy classes...

Socialism is cool as a concept, a divine concept that is spoiled by the evil human elements.

In a perfect world socialism should be a guarantee of work and shelter, but in the real work socialism is a guarantee of not incentivating those who want to create, and a guarantee for the lazy masses of putting not great effort in what they're doing.

We all know statal workers... Are they enthusiasthic? Here in Spain, an employee working for the government is the worst worker you can face, they're not nice, they're slow and inneficient. The threat of firing a worker must be there, and it is in a normal enterprise, but civil servants are not very likely to be fired.  Also, the promotion is not something that incetivates them, because we know that the "human element" make that promotions in government employments are not decided by merits.

Socialism fails in a basic concept... We, human beings, are not the same. People must have freddom to decide which carrer want to study or which work apply for. Being directed by a central power is the most far away thing of pure democracy, specially because this central power falls into corruption and becames the new group of powerfull people (just what we wanted to avoid... In the US, the evil were the rich people, in USSR, the evil are the members of "the Party".

Socialsm fails in other basic concept... It's not simple. Controlling if what a central source of decission is saying to be done is impossible, and if done, so many steps are needed that the system falls into corruption[/human element].

BTW... We mustn't be genious to know all this... we just must take a look to USSR.

BTW, total liberalism has also its problems, but it is not what it's being discussed here (Another thread?), so, the basic concept must be "democracy" so, we, the people, will be able to decide if our country needs a right or left politic.

[Peter Thomas]

I think socialism is a great concept, but - as seems to be the general opinion - I don't think it would work. By very nature, people are deceptive and dishonest, and always look out for themselves. It would be hard to enforce a law that said "sacrifice your money to poor people in africa you've never met before". People would be angry. We want things for ourselves, and unless we benefit out of a generous action too, we are unlikely to do it.


What increator said is an extremely good point. Not one Christian human has ever managed to abide the ten commandments completely. How much less would the morally corrupt? How do you control them? Well - naturally you'd create some sort of police force to watch over them, but then that doesn't really fit the strict definition of Socialism.

And I think some people BENEFIT from being jobless. I know of alcoholics that have transformed their lives because they don't have a job and therefore can afford little more than pepsi or water; gamblers who stopped because they just didn't have the money to feed their addiction; druggos that came clean because they couldn't pay for the heroine etc etc. I think employment is a wonderful thing, but for some people it just gives them a reason to blow their money on things that will kill them, and sometimes others.

I know there's no such thing as the perfect government, but I think a world run by an AM - as eric said - would be a whole lot better.

[Ali]

I think it's important to note that an awful lot of terrible things have happened under grossly distorted and failing communist economies.

However, the same things happen under capitalist economies when they're functioning correctly!

And Stuh505, lets not forget that socialism was originally thought of as a stage of transition between capitalism and communism, not a permanent state.

So, who wants to talk about materialism? Yay!