Socialism

[Rincewind]

Hm, interesting topic - As I am pretty much a "lefty" I can identify with socialism a lot, and I definately agree with it's main principles, in the way Marx wrote it.
Then on the other hand, I don't consider people like Stalin or Mao as "real" communists either, as one of the main things with communism is that all people should be on an equal basis. And as we all know, neither Stalin nor Mao were exactly on the same level as their people... They were dictators, no better than the likes of Hitler or Mussolini.Ã, 

What I think is the main problem, is that far too many just blindly trusting the ideals that other people have written down. Ironically, I think that Marx himself said it best:
"All I know is that I'm not a Marxist..." & "Question everything."
Ã, 

[Matt Brown]

Im a democract, and a left-leaning person. I agree with some of the principals of socialism, such as every person deserving teh rights of health care, a job, etc.
That being said, I dont think socialism can work on a large scale...and I dont really want it to.

I have a right to be able to find a job, or earn the skills to get a job, should I need one.
I also have the right to pick my vocation, my school, or even if I want to have a job. There are consequences of not having a job on purpose, such as not having any money, but thats a choice I claim I can make.

I have the right to vote out my leaders if I dont like 'em...or not vote at all. Im not sure if every choice should be made by popular vote. I think our system works pretty well...and...I know this sounds really horrible, but a lot of people in america are dumb, and there are some evil people in political power. it would be way easy to take advantage

One of my creedos is to "work hard, play hard, and give something back", and thats how I think out goverments should be based. We all work hard for the system, play hard in the system, and give and get back from the system. We cant all put the same amount back...to use a columbus allusion here junc, you cant expect people living in walnut ridge to pay the same amount or give the same amout as people who live in dublin or pickerington. its just important that you give something back...volenteer, help the elderly, etc. If we all give back, we can have a mini-socalism in Ameica, without the negitive side effects, such as mass state control and loss of personal liberty, which is our most important gift.

[Evil]

... Anybody else think I look like Phil Reed in that picture?

[Pau]

One thing about The human element some of you have previously talked about:

Here in Spain if there were not barriers at the underground the people will get into the subway without buying the ticket for sure.

When I was in Prague there were no barriers at the underground but the people there bought the ticket because they were educated that way (They do it as a natural thing). The ticket inspectors only ask the tourists because they know local citiziens are acting correctly.

So I think all of this is a problem of education, if you are educated in an egoist (or capitalist) system It's hard to understand any other behaviour. And considering that capitalism is very powerful worldwide, is't very difficult for alternative sistems to survive.

Probably you won't understand how a massai could be happy without a car the same way he won't understand how are you happy without a cow.

[Nacho]

That's indeed a good point Pau... I was thinking in my friend Petter Ljvnqu Andail last day, in Sweden, and in left-leaning people (I've never asked him, but I think he's most left than right  )... just when I was abandoning that thoughts I read an article about macroecony in Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries, and the social movements that were going on there impressed me. Sorry for being unable to quote exactly how was the report, but some of the data amazed me.

Then I realised that we can't compare being left-leaning here, in Spain (Where, unluckily, socialism would never work, IMO) and in some other places where they've been breed with another beliefs.

I could be socialist in Sweden, but being Spanish, I chose a conservative managing system for the economy.

Let me put an example of how things would work differently in Sweden and Spain.

We have a plan here in the South... In Andalucia, for incentivating the work in the agriculture, a sum of money will be payed for you during all the year if you show that you've worked just 40 days in agriculture.

What do the spanish people? They falsificate documents to proven to the goverment that people has been working that 40 days, while the real person working there has been an ilegal inmigrant. The worst of all is that the local government can't stop that because that would be terrible impopular, they just pretend not to see it because they like that bag of votes.

And that is allowed by the local socialist government.

I couldn't be socialist knowing that in Andalucia, they're buying votes with the money of the rest of Spain.

But that would never happen in Sweden, IMO.

As Pau said, different educations.

[Las Naranjas]

One of the biggest problems in this situation is the fact that Spain is too big. To follow your Macroeconomics with a bit of Microeconomics, the bigger state only produces diseconomies of scale.

take a look at this http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778562.html.

It's the list of the highest ranked nations on the Human Development Index as of 2003, the UN measure that includes life expectancy, education etc. Nations ranked 1, 2, 3, 6 and 10 all have populations of 10 million or less [give or take 200 000 in the case of Belgium].

4 and 5 have 20 million or less.

Canada has 30 million, which means that there are only two large states in the mix, both of whom have been the greatest economies of the past century. [however both have large problems in their economic structures that are causing big problems]

There are another 7 countries of 10 million and below in the next 15.

Any kind of management is simpler on a smaller scale, and if governments are meant to increase standards of living, their management in smaller countries certainly seems easier.

[kl4Uz]

your socialism wouldn't change a single thing. I can't believe states can become somehow "better" by reforming them. There would be still authority that would supress the people living in this state.

As you can see I'm a libertarian. I'm not a right wing libertarian - I'm very much into libertarian communism or anarchosyndicalism. I can't stand any form of authoritarian behave.

here's a good website with general information about anarchosyndicalism: http://www.anarchosyndicalism.net/as.php
And an other one, but only in german language: http://www.anarchismus.at

You can also find adresses of local anarchist/syndicalist or localist groups on these websites.

[SSH]

You feel that hunger should never exist also.Ã,  This may SOUND righteous, but it's not.Ã,  What it means is, you want hard-working people to pay to support the people who don't work hard.Ã,  This reduces the encouragement to work, because the money isn't going straight to themself, and they know they will still not starve if they don't work...so why work?

Yeah, those lazy paraplegics, why don't they get up and do something? Anyway, the incentive problem always occurs if benefits are at all means-tested. The only way to avoid this is to have universal benefits (or none at all). ie. Everyone pays a lot more tax, but then everyone gets a handout of the money required to meet basic human needs. Any extra they can earn is thus on top of the handout and doesn't reduce it in any way. Hoever, this system requires a lot more taxation than most places have.

There are a lot more problems with socialism, it leads to inflation, your money becomes worthless, everyone becomes poor, nobody works hard, life sucks, socialism sucks.

Not with universal benefits.


On the other hand, libertarianism has its virtues as well, but it does rely rather too much on the generosity of people, which as has been established with communist practice in the 20th century DOESN'T WORK.

[Ali]

That's a good point, however an equal socio-communist system need not necessarily rely upon generosity. If the world's wealth was shared equally the vast majority of individuals would benefit.

[juncmodule]

Two things always come up when I mention the world Socialism:

1. Communism
2. Lack of faith in humanity

Basically, I guess it's time I re-evaluate the way I present my argument for Socialism. So here is another try.

As I said, I believe that Socialism should be used in social programs while capitalism is used in economic programs. As a few people pointed out, when you have a large populatoin, Socialism is doomed.

Oppression is a constant concern of mine regarding Socialism. I think so many people around the world are unaware about the oppression that occurs right in front of them. In America we are led to believe that we have certain freedoms. Namely, Freedom of Speech. This is a myth, it is impossible to have freedom of speech, you are always going to offend someone. So, we have Limited Freedom of Speech. I have no problem with this, but I'd rather hear it like it is than get pumped full of American propaganda. American's think that they are freer than any other nation in the world and that there is no better place to live in the world. I often hear the "If you don't like it here go move to ______" (whatever country we are invading at the moment). Wrong again. Why should I just sit around and be content!? Why should anyone? What's the point of having freedoms if you don't use them? America is not perfect; nowhere in the world is perfect. Humans should strive to make every place they live in closer to perfect (perfect is a bad choice of words, but I hope you get the point).

My point is, that many people are oppressed by the very freedom that is meant to set them free.

I see very little wrong with the American system. It's just too bad that we have strayed so far from it that it is no longer recognizable.

I still stand by a popular vote. Any other vote is not a vote by the people. Oh, and just because someone is dumb, doesn't mean that they don't have the right to vote.

I still stand by a free national health care system; anything else should be considered human rights abuses by our country. We have the means to implement a national health care system yet so many people are unable to receive even basic healthcare (first person to bring up free clinics as a defense in America has to pull out one tooth with a hammer and some kite string).

Housing. Every day I see abandoned building after abandoned building. They sit for years. Yet, all around there is homelessness, evictions, etc. Once again, we have the ability why not use it. I think everyone is entitled to a home. My only problem here is "section 8" housing, I don't want to create a mirror of that situation (for those not from America, section 8 housing is cheap government assisted housing that African Americans were herded into (in the 70's & 80's?), kind of in Nazi ghetto style, which is responsible for "livin' in the ghetto", being a term associated with living in a all black neighborhood. Then of course no one maintains the housing and it falls to shit. Also these areas were built when discrimination was much more rampant in America. African Americans had difficulty finding decent jobs and ended up living in section 8 housing. Only recently have African Americans begun to be able to stand on slightly more equal footing, however this is largely due in part to American racism being shifted to Mexicans).

I think that business also needs to be reevaluated. America needs to concentrate more on producing goods for itself. We need renewable resources and jobs at home. Business need to be removed from government and made less private. Once a business reaches a certain value it should be subject to more strict laws, forcing it to mainly just open it's doors. Records and operations should be more a matter of public record. I strongly oppose government owned business (a huge misconception in my mind of what Socialism is, I've seen many dictionaries and heard many people define it this way. As a basic definition I interpret Socialism as an "economic theory or system in which production should be for the public good rather than private profit").

I'm shocked that so many people just shoot down Socialism. Granted, as a stand-alone government I agree that it would fail. As a way to describe my belief system, I think Socialism is a good word. I am deeply saddened by the prevailing lack of faith in humanity. It do not think that all people are greedy and evil. Pau made such a great point; it's all a matter of education. Capitalism and greed walk hand in hand, until we de-emphasize capitalism in our system we will remain greedy.

Sorry for the American slant on this, I hope you can apply it to your own countries, or at least relate somehow. Obviously, America has screwed with my mind

later,
-junc

[Barcik]

Basically, I feel that every human being is entitled to food, shelter, health care, and other necessities of modern life. I feel that unemployment should NEVER exist; there is a job for every human. I feel that hunger should NEVER exist; there is surplus food for every starving human. I feel that the government should provide these things and more to EVERY human. I feel that each human should be able to cast his or her individual vote and have it count toward the final vote (popular vote). I feel that nearly every government decision should be made by popular vote (we have the technology to do this).

I am against socialism. I am a firm believe that a person's quality of life should be a direct result of his effort in it. Of course, I too believe that every man should have the basic needs of life, but unlike you said, not an inch more (of course, I don't mean people who are disabled and cannot work etc.).
I live in Israel, a state that was founded in the 40s by Russian immigrants. So, naturally, Israel was constructed on socialist principles. MAPAI, the biggest political party in Israel until the end of the 70s (what later became the Labour) was a socialist party. And so, till this day, our economy has a socialist character. So, the welfare rates here are extremely high (despite the media's constant attempts to present it otherwise). And as if the ones who are really unemployed are not enough, this has lead to a massive exploitation of the system. Thus, My parents, nicely paid programmers with a cottage, 2 cars and a cute dog, give away 60% of their wages. 60 fucking percent! If you ask me, it is outrageous. The Israeli people have taken the Robin Hood view - all the rich are evil, all the poor are so because of the rich. Well, let me tell you a little secret. There is an excellent reason poor men are poor - they did not study hard enough, work hard enough and try hard enough. Why the fuck should they get something? And yet, my father who works 12 hours a day has not just to feed them, but to also buy them a DVD player.
Furthermore, people in Israel do not look on the rich as role models, but as hate symbols. They despise them. Sheri Arisson, the wealthiest person in Israel, moved to Miami because of disgraceful treatment by the press. People on the street blame the rich for their problems. This is wrong, educationally and morally.
Luckily, the current Minister of Economy is Benjamin Netanyahu, one of the few efficient men in the Knesset. He has come up with a new plan to fix the crumbling Israeli economy, and we already see some of its early effects. Hopefully, we are on the way to a better future.

Basically, everything was a lot better. In some ways. There was no hunger. Even if you didn't have any money, you were able to pick some empty bottles from street and give em away, and you got plenty of money to buy food, because it was so cheap.
Everyone had opportunity to have education. Even a dumbest guy could go to univesity if he wanted to. Luxuries like going to cinema, theatre, restaurant, vacation, eat well and so on were so cheap that everyone could afford them. And people could live well even if they worked as a janitor or some other low-payment job.

Allow me to give the second view from the former Soviet Union. I was born in Dnepropetrovsk, today's Ukraine. My parents, who worked just as much then as they do now, got along well. We had all the basic necessities. But we lived in a small apartment. We didn't have a car. Our furniture was old. Luxury? Nowhere in sight.
And then we moved to Israel, with 150$ in the pocket. In 10 years, my parents were able to buy a 300,000$+ house, despite the nature of the Israeli economy. Back there, such a thing is no more than an illusion.

[Czar]

okay, i'm just passing through this thread, but do you know the saying from communism times?

Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others.

Hope it helps 

[Damien]

Heh, you got that from the Animal farm (a book), didn't you.

Djeco bit ce jos -Orson

[Ali]

do you know the saying from communism times?

Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others.

I think it was "Death to the Czar!" actually.

[Andail]

For clarification, Sweden (formerly # 1 on the UN-chart of most "liveable" countries, currently # 3) is not a socialism, it's a social democracy.
So don't get any weird ideas that our state controls everything we do, or whatnot.

In fact Sweden has a rather high level of free enterprise (companies like Ericsson, Volvo,  IKEA, H&M and Saab were all founded in Sweden), and is the third biggest music exporting nation in the world - not bad for a country with nine million inhabitants!

A socialism would not likely be able to show up such figures.

So my being "leftist" is not necessarily a product of my upbringing and social environment; there are very strong liberal forces in Sweden due to our high amount of self employment etc.

I could also add that Sweden is hastily deteriorating, our crime is increasing, the standard of living is decreasing, and we're moving closer to the american way of living.

[juncmodule]

Barcik: "buy a 300,000$+ house" ...WHAT!?!? And you are crying about WHAT!? Please tell me that the israeli dollar is worth an American penny or something. You cannot possibly be complaining about your way of life and live in a $300,000 home. If you don't like paying so much in taxes, sell the house and move. This is the reason why I lean towards socialism so much. People that live excessively complaining about people that didn't "study hard enough, work hard enough and try hard enough". That's such bullshit. Some people are just smarter than others. If you work a crap job and that's all you can get then you shouldn't be punished for that. Some of us do not have the opportunities that maybe you do.

Try this on Barcik: Growing up in the Flint Michigan there was only one way to succedde. Work in the factory. I went to a very rough high school and saw every one of my freinds beaten up because of the color of their skin. I am a little guy and was harrased but, somehow managed to avoid getting hurt too bad. I dropped out of high school and later got my GED (a dumb man's diploma in America). I was told that a GED is useless. I didn't know what to do. I wanted to go to college but my parents wouldn't help me. I was stuck. Factories were closing so that option was running dry. I talked to an army recruiter for a while until I realized I just couldn't do that. So, I got a job at McDonald's. I worked my ass off, and got NOTHING for it. Finally, while at a bar one night I met a guy that offered for me to travel to Columbus, Ohio with him. He was going to medical school. I went along, having known the guy for about 3 weeks. I ended up in a new city without family or friends. The guy I moved to Columbus with got his girlfriend pregnant and ended up moving back to Flint (by the way he was in medical school and dropped out to work in a pizza shop). I stayed. Only through the generosity of a few people did I manage to pull it together. I spent some time homeless, got another job at McDonald's and lived in someones basement. Finally, I began to learn about student loans. People told me I could go to school for free! No advisors in school ever said anything about it, my parents never said anything about it, why hadn't anyone told me about school loans!? So, now, my life has slowly come back together over the past 7 or 8 years. I am in school and working at a cafe as a cook. I have tried many different ways to make enough money to buy a house, car and all that (truck driving being one big mistake). But, here I am, 29 years old and in college with a bunch of 18 year olds. It sucks. If something happens, like my girlfriend getting pregnant, I will have to leave school and work some shit job. I DO NOT have the opportunities that some people have. I did not grow up in a $300,000 dollar house. I have worked hard and struggled all of my life. I'm not the smartest guy in the world. But, guess what Barcik, I still deserve to have a roof over my head, to have medical insurance, and live a decent life.

Andail: Hmmm...you are one of those people I was hoping would post in this thread. That is enlightning to say the least. What is a Social Democracy? Is that what is failing, or is the move closer to capitalism causing deteriorating conditions?

later,
-junc

[MillsJROSS]

As far as socialism goes it's a nice idea, but frankly it just wouldn't work.

I think everyone is entitled to the RIGHT to have food, clothes, and shelter. But it is up to them to do something about it. I am not going to college to help someone I couldn't give two shits about. If they're poor by their own will, let them be so. If, however, someone is unfairly poor due to something like racism...I'm all for people helping them out. One thing, though. No one should ever be forced to "give" their money for a "greater" cause. If people want to donate their money to the poor, they should. But if I worked for my money, my clothing, my shelter...and really have no wish to help the poor, I shouldn't have to do so.

Are my views selfish? Shouldn't I be entitled to everythign I work for? Let it be up to me, whether I want to donate money money or not. Don't demand it of me. It's not yours to demand.

That said, I do donate money, but I do so of my own free will. And to causes I find worthy. I truly wish people could all have work, money, shelter, and clothing. I have no ill wishes on anyone. But I, nor anyone else, shouldn't be commaned to be responsible for other's welfare.

-MillsJROSS

[juncmodule]

This seems to be the prevailing arguement, so let me address a few things.

You don't think you should pay out money to people that you don't "give two shits about"

Actually, I agree.

Problem is we both ALREADY DO.

We pay taxes to support a bloated government and military. We pay for vacations to the bahamas for politicians, jets, limos, etc. (Regardless of what country you live in you pay taxes).

I just think that we don't get enough in return. For example, about 10 years ago Canadians paid $5 for a pack of cigarettes, this is because they get national health care. It is paid for by taxes of cigarettes. Do you know what my American smoking family said to this: "I'm not paying $5 for a pack of cigarettes!". My girlfriend pays $3.15 for a pack of smokes. Twice as much as the cost 10 years ago. Yet, we STILL don't have a national health care system in America.

By the way, Barick, I do think that 60% is insane. If that much is taken away you should already have socialist programs and more. You should deffinately live in a more peaceful country. I agree that your government is failing you and that your family is treated unfairly, I just don't agree with the way you present the arguement.

I don't want to see what you or anyone work for get taken away. I just want to see it used more wisely. We pay (the world's citizens) insane amounts of taxes. These things should be provided to us in compensation for our tax dollars. I don't think taxes should be raised or changed. I think some politicians should be forced to go from meeting to meeting in Yugos, go on vacation in New Jersey, and take the bus.

Citizens shouldn't sacrifice, politicians, the government should.

later,
-junc

[Barcik]

Barcik: "buy a 300,000$+ house" ...WHAT!?!? And you are crying about WHAT!? Please tell me that the israeli dollar is worth an American penny or something. You cannot possibly be complaining about your way of life and live in a $300,000 home.

I am very much in rush here, so I'll reply to the rest later.

Will you be satisfied when you write a test worthy of an A+ and receive an A-? My parents are not poor, but hell, they deserve more.

[juncmodule]

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that so generally. You not only the right to, but should complain about your way of life. No one should be satisfied with their way of life, or the way of life of others around them. The world is not a nice place and if we just sat back and said "it's better than that other place" then how would good ever come of anything. Like I said (perhaps you didn't have time to read the other post) I just don't agree with your presentation.

I see Socialism as more of an idea to strive for. Sure, it doesn't work and some of the ideas are flawed, but why not strive to come close to eliminating problems in the world? If we make it half way to the ideas that I strive for then we will be doing pretty good. Socialism just presents a better vehicle than anything else I have ever found for those ideas. If someone could present something better then I would consider it. But, so far, no one has.

later,
-junc