New Bible Translation Promotes Fornication

[Fuzzpilz]

Haha, so my god is having no god? Exactly how do you come by that logic? I never did really understand that. The problem is that you have little or no understanding of exactly what science is and how it works. It isn't a belief system, and scientists don't believe in every theory there is. They're theories, which have possibilities of being true, and if they are proven beyond a doubt then they cease to be theories. They say, "How did this happen? Well maybe it was this.. or this.."

I don't agree with saying that about everyone who isn't religious either. I have, however, come across people who are very aggressive about these matters, whose fervour for spreading their message of atheistic salvation doesn't fall short of, say, Jehova's Witnesses' efforts by all that much - the chief difference being that they're usually not organized, and I can't recall ever hearing of such people coming to people's houses about it. Still, it's certainly appropriate for these.

However, I think you're missing the point of the science/religion thing, which is that there isn't one. It makes little sense to yell "Science! Science! Occam's Razor!" at religious beliefs unless they cross a certain line - if Peary's expedition to the North Pole had seriously looked for Santa's workshop, that would be quite deserving of your ridicule. If Gagarin's comment about not seeing God in space had been caused by surprise that this was so, you'd have any amount of justification you could possibly want to point and laugh. You can scratch your head at the people who seriously think they've found Noah's Ark, and at the medieval funnymen who burned "witches" and whatnot.

But religious beliefs that aren't mere superstitions about the physical world should not be confused with these, but should be taken a little more seriously - though whether you have anything in that direction or not is your affair, and I for my part don't mind if you poke a little fun at the mythology that is linked to or part of my beliefs. The most important of these is that God isn't a heartless jerk, everything else follows from that.

[Secret Fawful]

But I try not to say anything... I want to defend my religion, but it's pointless to argue with it on the interent were ultimately nobody gives a damn. If we were having a discussion IRL, in a room.. I'd be knocking some heads together.

I tend to agree.Ã,  There are other forums for religious debate.Ã,  I actually enjoy the occasional religious debate elsewhere, but I really don't think the AGS Forums are the place for it.Ã,  We're adventure game hobbyists, not divinity school students.

i agree with igm and migs     in every way      but thats it i am not getting mixed up in this anymore just thought i should give my opinion

[Migs]

Here's a little challenge for the religious:

Place yourself in the position of an objective agnostic - a person with no biases for or against any particular religion or religious organisation. Then, try to build up a case for why your personal favourite religion is a more credible proposition then any other. Make sure every piece of evidence stands up in comparison to corresponding evidence from other religions (e.g. citing subjective religious experiences as evidence will not necessarily count, as such experiences have been shown to occur almost equally throughout members of all religions â€" and even regularly among the non-religious - only the interpretation tends to change).

Until religious people can do this, they should lose all privileges for suggesting people of other beliefs are wrong or irrational, in my view.

I think temporarily placing yourself in another's position is an excellent way to approach other religious perspectives.Ã,  There's a similar example, related by Krister Stendahl, the Lutheran Bishop of Stockholm and former dean of Harvard Divinity School.Ã,  He once outlined three rules on how to approach another's religion.Ã,  They may seem fairly obvious, but are often ignored nonetheless:

(1) If you want to learn about a religion, ask the adherents of the religion, not its enemies.Ã,  It only makes sense.Ã,  After all, adherents are the authorities on what they themselves believe.Ã,  if you want to learn about plumbing, you ask your plumber, not your auto mechanic.

(2) Don't compare your best with their worst.Ã,  For example, Christians believe in loving everyone, but those awful Muslim terrorists in Afghanistan hate everyone.Ã,  That's not a correct comparison.Ã,  Instead, compare Christian terrorists to Muslim terrorists.Ã,  You should compare the ideal in one faith to the ideal in another.Ã,  Compare the Christian who lives the life of love to the Muslim who lives the life of love.

(3) Leave room for "holy envy."Ã,  Holy envy is looking at another faith and saying, "Gosh, that's such an awesome doctrine they have.Ã,  I wish my religion had it."Ã,  That's not saying you have to believe what the religion teaches, just that you admire it.Ã,  For example, one can admire the ritualistic aspect of Catholic mass without being Catholic, and even wish their church had more ritual to it.

[Paper Carnival]

Here's a little challenge for the religious:

Place yourself in the position of an objective agnostic - a person with no biases for or against any particular religion or religious organisation. Then, try to build up a case for why your personal favourite religion is a more credible proposition then any other. Make sure every piece of evidence stands up in comparison to corresponding evidence from other religions (e.g. citing subjective religious experiences as evidence will not necessarily count, as such experiences have been shown to occur almost equally throughout members of all religions â€" and even regularly among the non-religious - only the interpretation tends to change).

Until religious people can do this, they should lose all privileges for suggesting people of other beliefs are wrong or irrational, in my view.

What about people who were atheists? There are people who used to believe God doesn't exist. They used to think there is no evidence of His existance and they mocked Christians. Then, something happened and they are christians now and they feel stupid for not understanding earlier.

Like what Geoffkhan said, here IS a God and there IS evidence. You just don't see that evidence or simply don't want to. When I became a christian, I answered everything to myself. If I give you the answer to any question you have, you won't find it logical

A christian who becomes an atheist was never a true christian, but there are people who were atheists with strong anti-christian feelings, but now are real christians.

So don't say there are christians who don't understand atheists, because a lot of them do. It's the atheists who don't understand Christians.

[Miez]

So don't say there are christians who don't understand atheists, because a lot of them do. It's the atheists who don't understand Christians.

I say: steady on with the HUGE generalizations there, Peepwood.

[LGM]

PaulSC.. Your generalization about Christian religions and branches isn't very justified.. I mean.. What the heck does the War in Iraq have to do with applying the Bible to ones life., other than it being a POSSIBILITY of the apocolypse..

Like I said in another post.. It's not about religion for Christians.. You can be a methodist, baptist, presbyterian, whatever... And still go into heaven.. All the Bible says is that you have to believe in God, have faith in him, love him and live for him. It doesn't say you HAVE to be in ANY religion.. It doesn't say what methods or rituals you have to follow or do.. You don't even have to go to church on a regular basis to get into heaven.. That's the beauty of Christianity, it still recognises your free will!

Anyways.. Like it's been said before.. Noone can ever be proved right or wrong.. That's not what I'M trying to do, anyways.. I'm just trying to open your eyes to other ideas than your own. It's okay to be wrong sometimes. I know I've been wrong before.

[Rave]

I have a brilliant idea. How about we all just take a deap breath, agree that you are right, (you being, whoever is reading this post at this time) everyone else is wrong, and leave it at that. We can all stop posting, try and regain a little respect for the people we disagree with again and let this thread die a long, slow, horrible death as it sinks to the bottom of the list [page 96  ] Who is with me? *gets bombarded by things thrown at him from the angry mob*

[Gregjazz]

Here's a little challenge for the religious:

Place yourself in the position of an objective agnostic - a person with no biases for or against any particular religion or religious organisation. Then, try to build up a case for why your personal favourite religion is a more credible proposition then any other. Make sure every piece of evidence stands up in comparison to corresponding evidence from other religions (e.g. citing subjective religious experiences as evidence will not necessarily count, as such experiences have been shown to occur almost equally throughout members of all religions â€" and even regularly among the non-religious - only the interpretation tends to change).

Until religious people can do this, they should lose all privileges for suggesting people of other beliefs are wrong or irrational, in my view.

What about people who were atheists? There are people who used to believe God doesn't exist. They used to think there is no evidence of His existance and they mocked Christians. Then, something happened and they are christians now and they feel stupid for not understanding earlier.

Like what Geoffkhan said, here IS a God and there IS evidence. You just don't see that evidence or simply don't want to. When I became a christian, I answered everything to myself. If I give you the answer to any question you have, you won't find it logical

A christian who becomes an atheist was never a true christian, but there are people who were atheists with strong anti-christian feelings, but now are real christians.

So don't say there are christians who don't understand atheists, because a lot of them do. It's the atheists who don't understand Christians.

I agree with this.

Also, the evidence for God existing is only availible to those who search for it. God's not going to pound you on the head with it. That's what's so beautiful about the free will he gave us.

[PaulSC]

To the people who keep trying to put a stop to this discussion: if you don't like discussing this stuff, maybe you should just stop reading the thread?

One little thing: I've never claimed to be right about anything, pretty much all I've done here is ask people why I should accept that they're right.

SSH

PaulSC, ditto try and prove there isn't a god. You can't prove it either way. If someone did PROVE it then all religions would just disappear. It's not about proof, don't you get it.

However, there is still such a thing as evidence. I can cite as evidence that God answered my prayer on such-and-such a thing. You may belive that that is just a coincidence, or I'm lying, or whatever, but it's still evidence.Ã,  The dictioanry says enidevce is "Something indicative; an outward sign". It doesn't mean it is proof. Don't get the two confused.

I never asked for "proof", and I never said there isn't a God. Like I said before, I've hardly made any positive "this is the way it is" statements at all, if any. All I've asked for is to hear a sensible reason why the claims of any one religion can be considered more valid then any other to an impartial observer.

The reason I don't generally accept claims such as your prayer example as solid evidence in favour of any one religion is because, as I said, people from pretty much every religion make identical claims. What reason do I have for accepting one claim over all of the others? They all look the same to that impartial person.

The main reason I asked the question in my last post is because I find it arrogant and hypocritical for people to accuse other people of being irrational/worshiping false gods etc (which has been done in this very thread), when they themselves are completely unable to justify their belief when pushed about the issue.

Guybrush Peepwood:

What about people who were atheists? There are people who used to believe God doesn't exist. They used to think there is no evidence of His existance and they mocked Christians. Then, something happened and they are christians now and they feel stupid for not understanding earlier.

Like what Geoffkhan said, here IS a God and there IS evidence. You just don't see that evidence or simply don't want to. When I became a christian, I answered everything to myself. If I give you the answer to any question you have, you won't find it logical

This doesn't change anything. I know full well that religious people believe what they believe very strongly, but that doesn't give me any reason to assume that what they believe is right. What makes you think we can trust our own senses?

Just a little general point: believing in God and believing in Christianity are very different things. The concept of 'God' in no way presupposes the Christian concepts of Heaven and Hell, divine intervention etc. Proving or disproving the "God" concept is very difficult, if not imposible. Many aspects of Christianity, on the other hand, can in theory be proven or disproven, as the bible makes numerous claims that God has made a great deal of observable impact on the world. Apparently at one stage he was perfectly willing to pound people over the head with evidence of his existence.

[lgm]:

PaulSC.. Your generalization about Christian religions and branches isn't very justified.. I mean.. What the heck does the War in Iraq have to do with applying the Bible to ones life., other than it being a POSSIBILITY of the apocolypse..

Like I said in another post.. It's not about religion for Christians.. You can be a methodist, baptist, presbyterian, whatever... And still go into heaven.. All the Bible says is that you have to believe in God, have faith in him, love him and live for him. It doesn't say you HAVE to be in ANY religion.. It doesn't say what methods or rituals you have to follow or do.. You don't even have to go to church on a regular basis to get into heaven.. That's the beauty of Christianity, it still recognises your free will!

But that's just your personal interpretation - there are plenty of Christians who wouldn't accept that viewpoint at all. If you were born in the middle ages - even if you were still a Christian with the same general fountation to your faith - there's a good chance your beliefs would be quite radically different to the ones you hold now. There's probably even a decent chance that the Middle Ages you would actively condemn the beliefs of the 21st century you.

This is because, as I said, a person's beliefs seem to be crafted as much by their culture and upbringing as they are crafted by their 'divine' texts. The fact that people can hold such dramatically contrastic beliefs and opinions - all of which supposedly based on the same one religious text -Ã,  makes me doubt the idea that any one religious text can be considered a definitive source of objective truth and morality.

Anyways.. Like it's been said before.. Noone can ever be proved right or wrong.. That's not what I'M trying to do, anyways.. I'm just trying to open your eyes to other ideas than your own. It's okay to be wrong sometimes. I know I've been wrong before.

I'm perfectly willing to admit when I'm wrong, but no one's given me a reason to assume anything I've posted here *is* wrong - if only because most of my posts have been questions and observations rather then definitive statements. Seriously, if i'm absolutely wrong about something, feel free to explain exactly how. I'm all for trying to understand religious ideas - that's why I keep asking so many questions!

Don't let me down, loves!

[Blackthorne]

WOO HOO!



Bt

[Rave]

To the people who keep trying to put a stop to this discussion: if you don't like discussing this stuff, maybe you should just stop reading the thread?

I actually didnt' read most of the thread, save for the last page. And I don't exactly intend on participating in the debat....which mind you, is NOT the original purpose of this thread. If any of you remember, the author posted an artical he found amussing and wanted to share. Since then, the entire discussion has shifted not about the artical, but about what and who is right and wrong about religion.

People have been discussing religion since it was created, and people have been reforming it ever since the day after it was created. Everyone has an opinion about it, I'm sure. And if they don't, they should. Because it is, I agree, a very important topic. However, we can debate and curse and accuse and object on the subject of religion for hours, weeks and years until we fade away to dust. But you see, we are all just making the same points that have been made time and time again by those who debated before us.

I don't think anyone here is about to stand up and say, "Holy Crud! Your absolutly right. How foolish of my to think I was right, when it is perfectly clear your view makes more sense. Thank you for showing me the light!" Instead, I think people are starting to get angry and a little feirce. However, I may be wrong about that. Thats the only reason I suggested to end the thread. However, if that isn't the case, then by all means. Continue the debate. Thought I still do not see the point of it. 

[Edit: Meh. After I posted I thought it wouldn't be right to post my opinion without reading everything. :S So I went back and read the whole thread (my head hurts now) and still agree with the points I states above. I also noted that a few other people suggested the same thing]

[Babar]

PaulSC, One thing you missed is: No one is trying to push their beliefs on you! You keep telling them not to, but so far no one has. There has been (Thankfully) no pushing of beliefs yet, only discussion, to clarify what people themselves believe. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as long as it does not resort to name calling and insults. Nobody is asking anyone to accept their beliefs. They are just stating what they believe is right. There is also no point in attempting to disprove someones beliefs, because, obviously, they think they know something you don't. Be this the clarity of God, or the Clarity of science, or the Clarity of both combined. It would be so much better if all practised some tolerance for others beliefs.

[Phemar]

No, no no no no.....What is it with you guys? I am Christian, but I'm not trying to inflict my christianity upon you guys, believe what you want because I know that however hard I try, I can't change your religion. I may change your opinion, but not your religion.
No-one asked for a religious debate, what we asked for was a nice BIBLE discussion...

Now discuss...

[SSH]

The main reason I asked the question in my last post is because I find it arrogant and hypocritical for people to accuse other people of being irrational/worshiping false gods etc (which has been done in this very thread), when they themselves are completely unable to justify their belief when pushed about the issue.

So basically you beleive that people should be allowed to believe anything except that other people are wrong? I always find that people who complain about having beliefs pushed down their throat have this beleif themselves and they like to push it down the throat of Christians, Muslims, etc.