Innovative Inventories

[Quintaros]

I've always felt that there was something a bit silly about the inventories of adventure games where a player can carry virtually anything.Ã,  Its not bad when a light game pokes fun at the convention but it sort of undermines the serious tone I'm going for in my own game.

Some time ago, I posted regarding a system that would assign inventory items mass so that the player was limited to a maximum weight he could carry.Ã,  That might still be a viable solution but I had another idea that might also be good.

I'd like to create a secondary inventory for larger items, that are stashed by the playercharacter somewhere within the game environment (one of the first game puzzles would be to find a suitable location).Ã,  Ostensibly when the player accesses this inventory, the player character is actually retrieving the item from the stash offscreen.Ã,  For this reason the 2nd inventory would only be accessible when the player has the freedom to retrieve it.

I'd also like to have a 3rd inventory.Ã,  This would be in the form of the player character's brain, storing ideas rather than objects.Ã,  These ideas would be obtained through observations, conversations, etc. and would be used to ask NPCs questions, and specify what it is you're trying to build when you combine object x with object y, etc.Ã,  Should the player get ahead of the player character so that he/she knows the idea without having obtained the idea inventory object, a text parser should be available so the player can type in the idea that he thinks he needs and be awarded the idea object.Ã,  (Is that clear?)

Anyway, GUIs and text parsers are two aspects of AGS that I have not delved into previously, so I wanted to get some feedback about these ideas before I try to implement them.

Thanks.

[m0ds]

Quint,

The inventory within the game world sounds like a very neat idea. As I see it though,
the problem you face with that is, if your game is multi-location, you're really going to annoy some players by having to take them back to this location (a garage for example) every time you want to stock up or take out the larger items in it.

To avoid that, you could just skip having to travel back there and just have the second inventory on screen. But at the same time, whats the point? Instead of having two inventories that are ideally doing the same thing - you may aswell just have one inventory.

This idea I think, could certainly work for a puzzle (your idea of finding a location and storing things in it) but I wouldn't rely on that "place" as an ACTUAL inventory for the whole game.

On the other hand, if the game is only say - ten screens long or with only a few locations, it could work much better.

The third inventory sounds awesome, but something like that would surely be far too complex to create and far to complex for the average adventure player to want to have to work out? I mean, "thoughts" could be an absolutley infinite - how would you make sure the player knew what kind of things to choose, or type into a parser?

I like the weight idea. Hasn't there been games where you can only store a certain amount though? I'm pretty sure people moaned about that... :/

[TerranRich]

Have you ever played Quest for Glory, Quint? QFG has weighted inventory and a chest in the player's inn room to keep extra items and stock. It's a great idea, very realistic.

[WanderLady]

-- Would your game be purely adventure, or RPG/Adventure?
-- Are you saying that when the character is able to access the 2nd inventory, the game flashes a black screen, or what not, indicating the character went to where the inventory would be to get the item?
-- What items are in your thoughts when you think of silly items?

[Quintaros]

The inventory within the game world sounds like a very neat idea. As I see it though,
the problem you face with that is, if your game is multi-location, you're really going to annoy some players by having to take them back to this location (a garage for example) every time you want to stock up or take out the larger items in it.

To avoid that, you could just skip having to travel back there and just have the second inventory on screen. But at the same time, whats the point? Instead of having two inventories that are ideally doing the same thing - you may aswell just have one inventory.

I agree that it would be annoying for the player to have to return to the screen where everything is being stored.Ã,  When I said that he was retrieving stuff off screen IÃ,  meant that the player would not actually have to go to the room but that it was implicit when using that inventory which could be accessed from anywhere.Ã, 

What's the point?Ã,  Peace of mind that it would be more realistic than storing everything in your jacket, and a few limitiations that might be exploitable for interesting puzzles.Ã,  Maybe that's not a good enough reason.

The third inventory sounds awesome, but something like that would surely be far too complex to create and far to complex for the average adventure player to want to have to work out? I mean, "thoughts" could be an absolutley infinite - how would you make sure the player knew what kind of things to choose, or type into a parser?

Basically, I'm looking for ways to limit a player's trial and error method of combining items together to stumble toward a puzzle solution. I don't want to deal with infinite possibilities and I don't certainly don't want to turn off the average adventure gamer.

Have you ever played Quest for Glory, Quint? QFG has weighted inventory and a chest in the player's inn room to keep extra items and stock. It's a great idea, very realistic.

No, I haven't played it.Ã,  I was pretty sure that I wasn't inventing the wheel with the idea though.Ã,  I'm just trying to learn why these things aren't implemented more.

-- Would your game be purely adventure, or RPG/Adventure?
-- Are you saying that when the character is able to access the 2nd inventory, the game flashes a black screen, or what not, indicating the character went to where the inventory would be to get the item?
-- What items are in your thoughts when you think of silly items?

I've never played an RPG so I'm not sure if there would be some overlapping of genres.
The screen would not flash black.Ã,  The inventory would work exactly as the typical inventory except instances when you'd receive a message saying:Ã,  "You can not return to your stash at the moment." because you were faced with an immediate obstacle.
I'm not sure I understand your third question, but I wouldn't bother dignifying silly thoughts with idea items.Ã,  The items would generally be represented by words, eg. "torch".Ã,  The item could be used to ask the storekeeper if he sells flashlights or to construct a torch from some regular inventory items.

[MrColossal]

quint,

by thoughts on silly items I think he means "Ladder" and "Life Size Model of Battleship" being stored in the EGO's pants.

I think I'd need more reason for objects to have mass and such and not just for realistics. In QFG [any many RPGs] the more objects you have the slower you move because they're heavy. Or you sink in water because you're too heavy. This forces you to pick what's important or you feel is important to the quest and ditch everything else either on the ground or in a specific spot like a chest or a bag or under a bed [see King's Quest 3 also]

If you want to be realistic than I suggest making the player walk back and go to the stash which isn't really that bad unless the game world is huge or there are a lot of big objects that require constant swapping.

Or just don't use objects that wouldn't make sense to be able to be carried in a pocket. How many objects are in your game? Does it get to a point where the player has too many objects that it just seems silly or are you designing it so that you can use the mass feature?

mods: the thoughts system would really be no different than the notebook in lara bow and discworld noir, so if you think about it like that I'm sure you can see how it wouldn't be that difficult to make. Dave Gilbert did it.

I thought about adding a thoughts thing [hell of a sentence] for my current game where you put an inventory item in your "brain" and then he thinks about it and applies what he knows about it to given situations, like if a stick is in your brain [ow!] and you look at a window he'll say "The stick could easily break through the window." or something.. But anyway, I think the idea of a thoughts GUI is a good one.

[WanderLady]

by thoughts on silly items I think he means "Ladder" and "Life Size Model of Battleship" being stored in the EGO's pants.

Yeah, this is what I meant, Quintaros.
What serious, usable objects are you thinking for the 2nd inventory -- ladder, crowbar, boards...?
How does a character even carry the several smaller items it amasses, like a hammer, or money, magazines, whatever, etc.? We are to assume backpack or pockets(cargo pants, maybe ), but these things aren't really drawn with the character. Being a computer game, I guess that leeway is given, but it's good you're thinking of ways to make it resemble actuality.

The screen would not flash black.  The inventory would work exactly as the typical inventory except instances when you'd receive a message saying:  "You can not return to your stash at the moment." because you were faced with an immediate obstacle.

Is traveling involved, or does the character gain access to the item without having to move?

Should the player get ahead of the player character so that he/she knows the idea without having obtained the idea inventory object, a text parser should be available so the player can type in the idea that he thinks he needs and be awarded the idea object.  (Is that clear?)

Do you mean the player picking up objects without really knowing the reason for doing so? I'll try an example of your idea:
-- Graham or Guybrush, see a fallen branch. They have not yet come to the part of the game here the branch is usable, therefore they cannot pick it up. Later in the game they come to a vicious dog guarding Eric's "Life Size Model of Battleship". The player opens up the "brain" to the observations category, and finds "In my passing through the park, I saw a sickly looking tree. Many of it's branches were scattered upon the grass." The player takes that "thought item" and clicks it on the dog. "'Good idea!' says Grahambrush." The player can now go get the branch. Something like that, maybe.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Just a quickie - by "thoughts" and whatnot has kinda been done before, in Discworld Noir and in Zork Grand Inquisitor (sort of - no thoughts there, but spells). It worked very nicely. And it actually worked a bit like WanderLady described.

[Ali]

Yeah, Black Dahlia also had clue-notes like Discworld Noir, but they weren't quite as good. The manipulation of clues in Discworld Noir was a really interesting use of a brain-type inventory. Discworld 1 also had an inventory of skills gained by the Player Character, though it was a little underused.

We could do with a hundred new and imaginative inventories like the kinds you're all talking about here.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

No, Black Dahlia had a notebook where you could jot down anything you wanted. And sometimes Pearson wrote in it himself. Not the same at all.

[Ali]

Not the same, but in many respects similar, being a notebook filled with clues and all.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Not at all - said notes aren't inventory items. They're completely optional, similar in every regard to writing stuff down on paper yourself. The principle behind Discworld Noir is that of coorelating clues in-game, allowing Lewton to form conclusions. The notes in Black Dahlia (and Shannara, and Gabe Knight 3, and other such games) are an optional treat for the player.

[SSH]

Broken Sword has the innovation, that I also used in Awakening of the Sphinx, that you can use every inventory item as a conversation point, as well as any specific dialog options...

Many old text-based adventures had a weight system on the inventory. You could possibly also have other limits, for example, you can't put the fox nad the chicken or the chicken and the grain in your inventory at the same time, or something will get eaten, likte that old crossing the river riddle. Many games had mazes that were easiest solved by dropping inventory in the otherwsie identical rooms in order to be able to tell the difference. Other games had objects that you had to drop everything else in order to be able to pick up.

Also, if you sometimes have to drop objects, its worth considering if there is any risk nivolved in that: might an NPC steal objects that are jsut lying on the ground, or even ones you are holding? Dun Darach and Tir Na Nog had this...

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

...not to mention Zork. The old text adventures were probably the most innovative in inventory handling. You saw everything in those days.

[Ali]

Not at all - said notes aren't inventory items.

I would agree that, because of the dynamic manipulation of entries in Discworld Noir's notebook, it is much closer to a typical inventory than its Black Dahlia counterpart and is probably more fun. However, as a collection of ideas rather than objects I'd say that a notebook filled in by the character was an inventory of sorts -certainly closer to an inventory than anything else.

I'm not sure why a collection of ideas should be regarded as particularly distinct from a collection of objects. In Blade Runner none of the inventory items can be manipulated or used in the traditional way because they are records of evidence which help the player to solve puzzles. I don't see that as being far removed from Pearson recording information that helps the player solve the game's mysteries.

Redrum, and I hope I haven't misunderstood you, would you argue that the Kia in Blade Runner wasn't an inventory?

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I haven't played it yet, but from what I've heard, I will agree that it records and uses non-material objects similar to an inevntory, but not quite. Like Discworld Noir's notebook.

Yes, a collection of ideas IS no more than a conllection of inv objects. BUT for that to happen you must be able to USE such ideas like you'd use inv items. Let's put it another way - in order to win Discworld Noir, you had to deduce stuff, which only happened when you confronted 2 different clues. That's not so different from use inv with inv, only in an abstract plain. Whereas Jim Pearson's notebook did little more than record runes. That was the whole point of the notebook. It wasn't to be used, it was meant to be consulted, not unlike something you write down. It was, indeed, quite optional, and only made things easier on the player, when in Discworld Noir (and Jack the Ripper, should I add? The old game, which consisted of making logical deductions, although some may argue about it, so I won't tarry on it) it was as fundamental as, say, using the clamp on the clothesline in the Longest Journey.

[Quintaros]

Thanks to everyone for their interesting comments.

I think I've got a handle on the 2nd inventory now.  Instead of making 2 inventories, I will integrate the stash into the conventional inventory.  I mean that when the player tries to pick up a large item such as a ladder, he will think to himself that he needs someplace to hide it for later use.  Once he finds a good place to store it, he can pick it up in the normal way and it will be accessable through his normal inventory.    I think this satisfies my annoying tendency toward literalism without becoming overly complicated.

SSH brought up several interesting quandaries that I was hoping to deal with as additional obstacles for the player.    I think a lot of these things could be implemented using the conventional inventory system and that all they require is some scripting effort in their interactions.  Good stuff.

I'm still not certain how to manage the idea inventory.  I certainly wouldn't model it after the KIA in Blade Runner as it reduced the interaction of the game by automatically selecting the appropriate clue when needed.  What redruM describes from Discworld seems closer to what I have in mind.    I haven't played this game though, so I'll put forth the question, to redruM or others who have played it: "Was this aspect fun or an annoyance to the player?"

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

To me, it was fun. It mostly affected conversations - in conversations you had very few topics, but you could ask about any clue in your notebook. That was vital. Another use that clues had was, you could cross-reference them. Example: Clue 1= Mundy wrote AZIZ in blood on the wall, before he died. Clue 2=Mundy was hanging upside down. Cross reference - not ZIZ at all, but 212V - upside down.

You see? Another interesting thing was that coorelating ANY clue to another ALWAYS gave an interesting response, never a generic one.

Using a clue with a person, either on conversation or actually using it, might even make Lewton (the PC) bluff with the person, or threaten, or whatever - depending on the clue. Clues were added and removed as it seemed proper.

The downside is, it was great in an investigation game, such as Discworld Noir. I'm not sure how it would work in any other game. It might be akin to what some people saw as a fault in The Longest Journey - too much dialog instead of action. I don't subscribe to that, but I think that, unless well made, this Discworld Noir thingy will be boring. It takes a lot of planning, and I'm not sure it can fit any other sort of game other than an investigation game.

But then, I'm talking about the complex system that game had. I suppose that by narrowing it down to much less clues - that may not be really clues at all, depending on the game - it might be much more accessible. In the end, these gameplays issues can only be resoved by experimenting.

NOW REDUNDANT CURIOUS FACT - It's funny how the 1st two Discworld games managed that XXXL INV... the lugagge. When you stop to think of it, it's a very convenient device.

[DragonRose]

If you have a game where you have to get around in some sort of vehicle (like Gabriel Knight or P:DA) you could always have a message along the lines of "You put it in your car" (and have the character go off screen and return) when you pick up oversized objects, and "you get it out of the car" and have the character leave and return.

That way, your oversized items are near by, and your inventory isn't seen as looking in your pockets, but just a list of things you own.

[Radiant]

I think the conversation inventory is an excellent idea, especially for detective-related games. For instance in the original Laura Bow you can always 'ask X about Y and Z' even if you have no clue what you're talking about, it's more fun if you have a list of topics that grows larger as you learn.

The 'huge items' thing sounds a bit less interesting from a design point of view. However, many text adventures have the restriction that you can only carry six items at any time (for instance), and several have puzzles that involve getting item X to room Y, when it's too large to fit through the obvious route from X to Y. Come to think of it SQIV has a puzzle at the beginning which is solved by not carrying the unstable ordnance.
I think AGS games could benefit from this puzzle potential.