Innovative Inventories

[GarageGothic]

I think the main problem with the idea inventory as it was used in Discworld Noir is that it creates an even wider gap between the player's mind and the character's. Ideally, I feel it should never be necessary to force the character to realize something, which the player has already figured out (without cheating and using information he could in no way have at this point - e.g. the license plate number in PQ4). redruM's example from Discworld Noir with the AZIZ clue could easily work without this interface, if the player knows that the guy was hanging upside down, he should be able to put two and two together without going through the mechanics of an interface.

If it's only used for conversation (or, for looking up information on a computer as in Bestowers of Eternity), I think it's fine - although I do prefer a traditional topic-list dialog interface to the notebook of Dagger of Amon Ra: You end up running through the list anyway, you just spend more clicks doing it with the notebook.

Although the text interface of QFG2 and Colonel's Bequest  probably is the only interface, which really limits the range of topics to the player's knowledge and imagination, I think the dialog interface in QFG4 worked pretty well too, as a somewhat more complex and specific variant of the GK1 dialog interface.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

You're true about the wider gap - but then, that'd bring us to another point: who's the character? You, as in Myst? Lewton? Or something in the middle, like, you CONTROL that character and therefore what YOU think and deduce is whathever the character thinks/deduces?

That really depends on how the game makers want to make it. Of course, the best way is always keeping the character's identity and personality to the fullest WITHOUT going through the bothersome stuff. Like in Gabe Knight, realizing what to write on the graveyard wall... THERE'S a great example of character development while still allowing the  player to think for himself.

Anyway, I digress (read "ramble").

[SSH]

To keep in the player character, you could always have part of the puzzle to explain to an NPC why the writing is upside-down or whatever. Is that the best of both worlds?

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Hmmm, maybe not, but maybe something like a database where you could type in 212V... I'm reminded of Anchorhead, where you could find out very interesting things if you checked the BIRTHs and DEATHs records. But you had to make the link yourself - once you did, you'd know WHAT to search for. Maybe THIS is the best... leave everything ready for the player to see and advance ONCE he makes the link in his mind.

Another example (although of a different nature) is the code-craking bits in Black Dahlia. We have to figure out ourselves which numbers to call, and in one particular occasion, WHO we want to talk to (TYPE IT!). THIS worked very well, and may be the best way. It's a shame Black Dahlia was so riddled with gratuitous puzzles, it was quite a gem.

[Goldmund]

Well I think that Black Dahlia is still a gem (except for the octagonal maze) mainly due to it original setting. I dig Art Deco.

I wanted to type that I don't have any problems with carrying too much items; then I remembered how Gabriel took a looong pole from Africa to New Orleans, carrying it in his pants, and I changed my mind.

The slickest inventory, which was fun to play with, was in a c-64 adventure game Deja Vu. Each object that was a container (starting with your detective coat) had its own window. It's a pity they didn't make it important, as it had absolutely no impact on the game whether you kept your pistol in the open or in your coat.
This game rocked, anyway.

[MrColossal]

Goldmund, just to throw this out there, there's a sequel to Deja Vu [I played the first on the NES] called Deja Vu 2: Lost in Time or something

Shadowgate and Uninvited also using the same engine I believe...

[Goldmund]

Oh I know, Erico, it's "lost in Las Vegas", but I got irritated with it because they had this idiotic idea of making the actual time count, and at a point you die just because of taking too long. The same was in Uninvited, but as this game reeked atmosphere, I liked it much more (although never could defeat zombies in the garden...)
I never played Shadowgate, though. Isn't it by Legend? I've never met this kind of inventory in a Legend game.

[Punch]

On the notebook kind of idea, has anyone else played "Murder on the Mississippi"? I had it on my C64. You went around interrogating people, and you could highlight parts of their text onscreen and save it to a notebook. Then you went around and asked other people about the words/sentences that you thought were relevant from the first person's conversation.

It was a great idea, but it didn't work fantastically. I had trouble working out exactly which phrases were necessary to get a meaningful response. It's a nice kind of in-between, not automatic like Disworld Noir's but also not completely open.

- Punch

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

That sounds very much like Jack the Ripper (the old game) - you looked for clues everywhere, and them compared them in order to make logical assumptions in game. With many clues being red herrings.

[Ali]

I think the main problem with the idea inventory as it was used in Discworld Noir is that it creates an even wider gap between the player's mind and the character's.

I must admit, though I'm a proponent of that type of inventory I did work out the upside-down puzzle long before Lewton and that was a little frustrating. I'm not sure if this necessarily distances the player though.

Perhaps it could just allows players to manipulate characters' thoughts in the same way that we're used to controlling their physicality and making their decisions.

[entry_level_model]

I'm playing Discworld Noir at the moment. It's AZILE written on the wall by Mundy, which turns intoÃ,  3715V....Sorry. After reading a lot of the posts, there's some things I agree with and others which I don't. I like the idea of the seperate inventories. As you basically said it is annoying to have a guy carrying a 12 foot ladder, a crowbar and a bicycle all in his jacket pockets. I think that the idea of a central location for these mass objects is a good one although maybe if you had different locations for different ones it would be better. For example: Your character could need a ladder to access a first floor window. You've found the ladder in the neighbours garage. He could have to make the decision to leave his other objects in the garage and use the ladder. I've played some RPG's and there are some good ideas and a lot blur the lines between adventure and RPG... The idea of a maximum inventory weight, as somebody already mentioned, is one that appeals. I've had some inspiration from this post and have decided that my character will have a rucksack/plastic bag in which he can place a certain number of objects.

Lewtons notebook in Discworld is a good idea but in reality can be slightly annoying. I think that there's probably a good balance between luck and finding the exact formula. I think this applies to the method of highlighting a certain sentence or typing a sentence. The problem with the latter is that the player would have to type exactly the right wording in. I think for maybe a number....e.g. telephone number 736492 or safe number 3729....this works. I played a demo for a Sherlock Holmes adventure game recently. It has some interesting parts. There's a notebook, which records questions and answers of conversations, and a list of clues he has collected (e.g. Door handle to pantry had sauce on it). If you pinch the best ideas from good games I think you're onto a winner....Some cross referencing of notes, some memories/thoughts collected in a log, limited personal inventory, location only mass objects (or a novel way of transporting one at a time...trolley maybe...or a favour from somebody you helped - they transport it in a van), using some of the players memory as well (an important number, a code word etc.).

Sorry for the lack of structure in my post, it's a bit of a rant.

[GarageGothic]

I don't really think you need separate inventories. How about just making 'ghostly' icons (black and white or bluish, transparent looking) for the 'imaginary objects' which the player character will go fetch from elsewhere, when they are needed?

I remember Shadow of Memories had a ladder, which you could 'pick up', but the character would only actually go get when you used it in the proper place.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

It's AZILE written on the wall by Mundy, which turns into  3715V....Sorry.

I know, I didn't bother replaying it just to give an example.

GarageGothics, that's a good one that's been used in a LOT of games, not just SoM. The hook in Phantasmagoria, the hose in SQ6...

[Punch]

I'm playing Discworld Noir at the moment. It's AZILE written on the wall by Mundy, which turns into  3715V....

While we're being pedantic, we might as well get it right. The number after turning the word upside-down is in fact '3712V'

[TerranRich]

I was just going to mention the SQ6 hookah hose, but you can actually keep the entire thing in your inventory. It's just that when you use it, you have to use it on two dfferent hotspots one after the other to make it work.

So far, we have:

• separate inventories; one on the player, another somewhere in-game
• virtually separate inventories; a "ghost" sprite (semi-transparent, tinted, etc.) that indicates it's not physically on or with the player, but is retrievable
• special items that aren't on the player but it is possible to retrieve and use the item, through the inventory

Has anybody ever given thought to "Knowledge Inventories" or "Idea Inventories"? Basically, a separate inventory where once the player knows, figures out, or thinks of a certain idea or topic, it is added. If the player has, say, the "Knows Kung-Fu" knowledge inventory item, then (s)he can perform a particular task. It would be easy for the player to see what the character knows, thinks, likes, etc. Much like The Sims, but limited to things required by the game, maybe even to affect the outcome of it.

Oh, and the knowledge inventories could possibly be extended to conversations, where the player can ask about an item he knows about, a skill he has, or something that has been puzzling him for awhile. Things could also randomly pop up in the KI that the player can use when needed, like the "Why IS the sky blue??" KI item.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

If the player has, say, the "Knows Kung-Fu" knowledge inventory item, then (s)he can perform a particular task.

Like in Discworld 1, you mean... except it'd actually be useful (it had precious little use in Discworld).

[Goldmund]

In Circuit's Edge - a really cool cyberpunk RPG - and in Neuromancer you could have installed "chips" in your character that allowed them to, for example, play music.
It was nice in CE how having different chips installed affected the main character's personality - he became paranoid, aggressive etc. according to the activated skill, a sort of a side effect.

[TerranRich]

Never played Discworld, but basically it would be an extensional of a game's "Ask About" internal list, like in the "Tex Murphy" games, as well as the game's internal methods of tracking how "good" or "bad" a player's been, to affect game outcome...except the player can view it and, therefore, has the opportunity to figure out what he must do in order to change or keep going.

[Alun]

Has anybody ever given thought to "Knowledge Inventories" or "Idea Inventories"? Basically, a separate inventory where once the player knows, figures out, or thinks of a certain idea or topic, it is added. If the player has, say, the "Knows Kung-Fu" knowledge inventory item, then (s)he can perform a particular task. It would be easy for the player to see what the character knows, thinks, likes, etc. Much like The Sims, but limited to things required by the game, maybe even to affect the outcome of it.

Maybe not exactly what you're referring to, but I was thinking a while ago about a sort of "concept inventory"... where in addition to the "look", "interact", "walk to", etc. icons there's a "remember" icon which adds what's clicked on (assuming it's at all significant) to the "concept inventory".  The purpose of the "concept inventory" would be to allow the PC to ask NPCs about things not in the current room.  For instance, if there's a strange statue in one room of the castle, the PC can "remember" it and then later as the king (who's elsewhere in the castle) about the statue by selecting it from his concept inventory and clicking on the king...

After thinking about this for some time, I decided I'm probably not going to use this for the game I had it in mind for--it would add another level of complexity that wouldn't be worth the payoff--but it may be worthwhile for a detective-type game or some other game for which asking NPCs about objects could play a bigger role...

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I'm big on quoting from games, apparently, but ALun_Clewe seems to be describing something similar to Lure of the Temptress, where you could TELL people to go someplace, do such-and-such action on such-and-such object, and etc. Whatever you SAW, whatever place you WERE IN, whatever you even SAW THROUGH A WINDOW, you could use in your commands.