Russia and Georgia.

[Nacho]

Paranoia or not I still think the US is Jonesing for a skirmish with the Russians...

Well, maybe no paranoid. Let' s leave it in "totally uncorrect".

[InCreator]

19:23
GMT +02:00
CNN.com

Ceasefire?


And I'm preaching this for two days now.

Tuomas, really, pull your head out of your--

You're finnish. Didn't you learn history at school?
Doesn't Russia still own great amount of eastern Finland?
Does anyone STILL need news to predict what's going on?

Haven't your own grandparents died in trenches fighting those Red devils?

[Tuomas]

Tuomas, really, pull your head out of your--

You're finnish. Didn't you learn history at school?
Doesn't Russia still own great amount of eastern Finland?

Haven't your own grandparents died in trenches fighting those Red devils?

Out of my what? Is offending someone a civilized way of having a discussion? Is that how they teach you in Estonia?

I'm Finnish, yes, and yes, they did teach us history at school.

Russia owns a part of Russia that used to be a part of Finland a century ago, and no-one wants it back anymore.

My grandparents are alive, mind you. This was 70 years ago, so had they been there, they would have died of old age already. Of the forefathers that might have died I don't care because I haven't seen them or even pictures of them.

I'm not taking sides here, and I don't want to repeat everything I said earlier about the reasons and what I disagree with. I'll pick a couple of lines from the story at CNN then. The Russian government is not the same as it were back during Glasnost and before. Of course they have their interests too, but it's hardly the same as it was 70 years ago, or even 30, as the whole political front has changed from communism to extreme liberitarian capitalism. And again, the first move of warfare was made by Georgia on thursday-friday. Our minister was to Gori today and reported back from a Georgian town held by South Ossetian separatists, hardly invaded though.

Russia insists it has no interest in interfering with Georgia's affairs but wants to protect its peacekeepers and the residents of South Ossetia

"The 1992 treaty which Georgia signed, among others, clearly defines the limits of responsibility of the Russian peacekeeping contingent, and is doesn't have any tasks of invading the Georgian territory."

A U.S. military official told CNN that Russian attacks on Georgia -- including radars and communication systems -- have devastated the country's command and control system to the point where Georgian leaders may not have a clear idea of the situation on the ground.

The situation in South Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night, when Georgia said it launched an operation into the region after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. It accused Russia of backing the separatists.

On Monday, in a conference call with reporters, Mr. Saakashvili said Georgian and Russian troops had fought fierce battles overnight as Russian tanks advanced toward Gori before being driven back, with heavy casualties on both sides. Russian planes also bombed targets across Georgia on Monday, including roads and bridges, Mr. Saakashvili said, before fleeing to a bomb shelter because Russian planes were flying over the presidential palace in Tbilisi.

I'ts all just circumstancial, but the point here is, that you can't go judging the moves of Russia just because of the war cromes they committed in the Balkans several years ago. Though I know it's not an easy subject to talk about, there's still two sides to everything.

On Monday, Abkhaz forces threatened to wipe out Georgian troops if they did not leave the Kodori Gorge, the only area where Georgia has military forces in the contested territory. Abkhaz troops blocked the gorge and proposed the formation of a humanitarian corridor to safely allow Georgian troops and civilians to leave, the Abkhaz defense minister, Mirab Kishmariya, told the Russian news agency Interfax.

Of course it would be better for Russia too to just leave them alone and let Georgia fight its own civil wars, but in another sense, they already had their troops in there, and they can't go pulling them out with Georgia driving theirs in. It has to come from both sides. The treaty is being taken to Moscow as we speak and will possibly be signed. That is why Russia is consulting NATO. Either it'll go on for long with neither drawing their troops back or it'll end tomorrow with Georgia never joining NATO. However, even if I might have my head up in my whatever, it doesn't mean i'm not allowed to think unbiased and just try to analyze the issue. It doesn't concern me right at this moment, and when/if it does, then at least i'll be prepared and know what I'm talking about. If you claim that they don't teach us history, perhaps you should consider, that maybe they teach us general history, not just the history everyone wants to hear. The biased history, which you are so keen on. Thanks for the link, it's was interesting read, and I appreciate that. But what I don't appreciate is your attitude with what we're trying to find out here just by having an analytic discussion.


EDIT: Well, here we have it. I stand corrected for being an optimist. Russia has just turned down the cease-fire offering. This is getting interesting.

[Nacho]

Ahhh! If we' ve spent 5% of the time we used for attacking Bush attacking Putin instead... ^_^

[RickJ]

The Russian government is not the same as it were back during Glasnost and before.

Well I suppose all of the ex-party members and their bureaucratic accomplishes are sitting on a beach somewhere in the south of France or collecting unemployment back in mother Russia.     

[Tuomas]

I would be, if I were them

[Ponch]

Paranoia or not I still think the US is Jonesing for a skirmish with the Russians...

God, I hope not. I used to be in the military once upon a time (got out a few years after the first Gulf War). The thought of any conflict between the U.S. and Russia (even a limited one -- though who can say that it would remain such for long!) is the stuff of nightmares. The projected casualties for the Fulda Gap alone were staggering.

Limited conflicts have a way of spilling over into full blown wars (some of the bloodiest wars in history were triggered by seemingly unimportant events that no one foresaw the consequences of). Unchecked war is even more likely if one side or the other has something to prove. Putin (president or not) seems to be in need of the world's respect (born of fear) that Russia enjoyed in the "good old days" of the USSR. And Bush... well, what more needs to be said, really? Plus, the U.S. land forces and supply logistics seem stretched pretty thin right now. Outside of parking a carrier group nearby and starting an air war, I'm not sure what options are available to America right now.

Let's all hope this ends quickly before European history enters a new, unpleasant chapter.

- Ponch

[Nacho]

Well... Georgia it' s not Europe. They participate in our crappy song contests, along with Turkey, Israel, and Cyprus, but nothing else...

[InCreator]

So?

They have oil.
And gas.

Anything that has oil or gas could be even next capital of Belgium, as far as EU spokesmen are concerned.
Or next star on US flag.

Money talks.

[Nacho]

The pipeline links have been intelligently avioding Georgia lately, and now oil going from the Caucasus to Belgium dosn' t need to pass through Georgia anymore. The reservoirs of gas and oil are not really that relevant.

This war is because Putin wants Russia to be in the newspapers again, and he doesn' t really know how to get it.

[Stupot]

Paranoia or not I still think the US is Jonesing for a skirmish with the Russians...

Well, maybe no paranoid. Let' s leave it in "totally uncorrect".

Perhaps... I can't argue with you because my knowlegde is obviously inferior to yours... I'm just basing my opinion on what reading I have done and a little instinct... However, when the US does declare war on Russia I will say "I told you so".

[Nacho]

Sure! I would accept that in a sportive manner... but one question: When will I be able to tell you "I told you so"? If there is no war in a month? in a year? In a decade? 50 years?

Just hear to the soldier members we have here... War with Russia is a no no. And for Russia war with EUA is a no no again...

[Snarky]

I'm not taking sides here, and I don't want to repeat everything I said earlier about the reasons and what I disagree with. I'll pick a couple of lines from the story at CNN then. The Russian government is not the same as it were back during Glasnost and before. Of course they have their interests too, but it's hardly the same as it was 70 years ago, or even 30, as the whole political front has changed from communism to extreme liberitarian capitalism.

Actually, Russia's economic policies are not particularly liberal, much less libertarian. Government interference in many industries is heavy-handed, like the way the state destroyed and took Yukos for itself, and the attacks on Mechel just a couple of weeks ago. Capitalists like BP are fleeing the country or getting expelled. And the political system, of course, is now a form of authoritarian rule by Leader for Life Putin (whether his title is President or Prime Minister).

Well... Georgia it' s not Europe. They participate in our crappy song contests, along with Turkey, Israel, and Cyprus, but nothing else...

Actually, geographically, culturally and historically, Georgia is in Europe. Yes, it's a remote outpost (though not too far away from Ukraine) that few people in the core European countries are more than dimly aware of, and the border with Asia runs through the country, but it is in fact European.

[Nacho]

It' s at the south of the Caucasian mountains which are accepted as the boarders of Europe... It can appear in some European maps, like Asian Turkey does, as well, but it' s not Europe.

[Tuomas]

Actually, Russia's economic policies are not particularly liberal, much less libertarian. Government interference in many industries is heavy-handed, like the way the state destroyed and took Yukos for itself, and the attacks on Mechel just a couple of weeks ago. Capitalists like BP are fleeing the country or getting expelled. And the political system, of course, is now a form of authoritarian rule by Leader for Life Putin (whether his title is President or Prime Minister).

I have no problems admitting that I was wrong. You know the times when you write a foreign language and don't want to go through dictionaries to find the correct words. I'm not that much into economics myself, so. The point is, while it's completely the same, it's completely different too at the same time.

Georgia: "a transcontinental country partially in Eastern Europe and partially in Southwest Asia in the Caucasus region." says wikipedia. Basically a lot of countries like this are considered European in most cases, right? I don't know why they're considering Turkey and Georgia into EU, if they're not wholly European... I'm not sure how it's rightly defined where they belong... I believe your map is outdated, Nacho. They're also as much a member of the Council of Europe as is, say, Finland.

[radiowaves]

I saw Putin stating that Georgia has done Genocide on Russian people. What is your opinion on that, true?

Why are such lies necessary in this situation?


Besides, it is clearly stated by other countries also, that Russia is still led by Putin. An ex KGB agent who thought about going to be a taxi driver when Soviet Union collapsed. Too bad he didn't do it, but I am quite sure he misses the good old Soviet Times. Why are there more SU flags appearing in Russia, including in parades?

[Nacho]

Outdated? It' s a geographical map showing where the phisical frontiers of Europe are... A bit silly, I must admit, since we are just a little peninsula of Asia. Saying that Urals and Caucasian mountains are the frontier is a bit arbitrary, methinks.

Anyway, if we agree that the Urals and the Caucasian mountains are the limits the map won't be outdated unless there is a cataclism... 

[Snarky]

As Tuomas points out, Georgia lies on the border between Europe and Asia, with parts in Europe according to the Caucasus mountain definition.

Also, it's a Christian country with historical ties to Greece and the other European countries bordering the Black Sea going back several millennia. Culturally and politically, it arguably is more European than Asian.

In any case, whatever label you want to put on it doesn't change the substance of the situation. Georgia was not close to getting membership in NATO or the EU, but they were trying to head in that direction, and would certainly be eligible in time. This war is very relevant to Europe.

[EldKatt]

I saw Putin stating that Georgia has done Genocide on Russian people. What is your opinion on that, true?

Why are such lies necessary in this situation?

I have no opinion whatsoever (although in this case I would say "understanding" or "knowledge", because my opinion doesn't change what's true and what isn't), but it's clear to me which one I'm expected to have... 

Any links to back up the idea that it's a lie? Any links to suggest that it's true? That Putin was even talking about it? These things help if you want to get a meaningful discussion going. Just saying.

[Nacho]

As Tuomas points out, Georgia lies on the border between Europe and Asia, with parts in Europe according to the Caucasus mountain definition.

Also, it's a Christian country with historical ties to Greece and the other European countries bordering the Black Sea going back several millennia. Culturally and politically, it arguably is more European than Asian.

"Parts in Europe" is not "It' s geographically Europe", as you said previously... It just means that "Some parts (the fewer) are in Europe".

About history, culture, etc... It's  difficult to set a line, I think. For example, I consider the USA closer to Europe historically and culturally than Albania, or Turkey... Same with Israel, which looks to me completelly Western. It' s difficult.