Status of the Double Fine Adventure

[Snarky]

It is his burden whether he likes or not - a consequence of his previous actions. He started something special - popularized a new way of funding creative works - but for now he's quickly proving that it's all been an utopia. That studios need a publisher/producer/etc. to manage/control what the creative guys are doing.

I mean - if Schafer had absolutely no idea how far off he was with his budget estimations (and after following the project we know he didn't), what about all the little indies - the 1,2 guys teams - asking us to help fund their games via KS. What chances is there they can manage a game project better than a man who's been in the industry for more than 20 years. That's how many potential backers of new KS projects will be thinking from now on.

Again, it sounds like you're starting from the assumption that this is a disaster and the project has already failed. It hasn't. For now, he's not "proving that it's all been an utopia," because we don't know yet whether it will be a success or a failure!

[Igor Hardy]

It's not a disaster (and I sure hope it won't be), but it's already a considerable disappointment in terms of how the production is managed.

I'd also say it has already become a serious argument for the ineffectiveness of KS-funding, since the project will need to use lots of extra money to get completed - far beyond what was given in the campaign. A luxury money reserve most KS-funded developers wouldn't be able to rely on.

But it's only the financial aspect of the project (and its management) that leaves a somewhat negative impression. Other than that, I hope the game will truly turn out better thanks to the extra time and money and wish the team the best.

[Trapezoid]

I think people just wanted a new adventure game from the guy who made some of the best adventure games. If anyone's interested in Kickstarter as a revolutionary new model for indie game development, maybe they shouldn't be looking towards a company whose previous budgets have been multiples of what was raised.

Double Fine has worked under larger budgets. I'm sure they've had to negotiate larger budgets. This is just negotiating with themselves.

[dactylopus]

I find it morally reprehensible that Double Fine should make anything other than the $400k game they pitched in the first place.

[veryweirdguy]

I find it morally reprehensible that Double Fine should make anything other than the $400k game they pitched in the first place.

They asked for $400k, they got $3.4million. How do you suggest they spend that extra $3million without making a bigger game?

[dactylopus]

I find it morally reprehensible that Double Fine should make anything other than the $400k game they pitched in the first place.

They asked for $400k, they got $3.4million. How do you suggest they spend that extra $3million without making a bigger game?

Profit?

[kconan]

  Haha, seriously?  Wouldn't it be more reprehensible if they pocketed (or taken as profit) the extra 3 million?

[dactylopus]

OK fair enough, but if you set out to make a game for $400k, you should be able to accomplish that goal as long as you get the $400k.

It's fair to expand upon their original concept.  But expanding beyond the scope of your budget (which is 833% of what you said you would need) is ludicrous.

[Calin Leafshade]

I'm inclined to agree with dactylopus, in part.

If you ask for a sum of money and then are given ten times that sum and then say you need more because you've run out then something is very wrong somewhere.
While I'm sure that there was no ill-intent, it does strike me as incredibly naive for someone with as much experience in the industry.

[Snarky]

They didn't have an original concept except "let's make an adventure game with Bagel's art." The $400k number is irrelevant, since as soon as the campaign went so much higher, they decided to make something much bigger that they'd never have attempted on a smaller budget. I think most backers expected and appreciated this; certainly there weren't that many complaints when they announced it after the campaign.

So just forget about the original target and focus on the actual budget they had vs. the expectations and ambitions the game had to live up to. It's not surprising they went over budget, although the scale of the overrun is excessive. But now Double Fine is pumping its own money (raised by selling other games, bundles, pre-orders and early access to Broken Age) into the project. They're not begging or demanding more from the backers, so how on earth is that "morally reprehensible"?

It's kind of like if I asked you for $8 to go get some dinner (thinking I'll just go to MacDonald's) and you give me a $50 and tell me to keep the change. So I say, well in that case I'll go to a proper restaurant instead and order a nice meal. Sure, it'll take a bit longer, but it's going to be worth it. But when I'm there it turns out I miscalculated (maybe I read the prices wrong on the menu, or didn't think to include the bottle of wine we're having, or at the last moment I decide we should get some dessert as well) and the $50 won't remotely cover it, so I have to run to the ATM and get some of my own cash to make up the shortfall.

In this scenario, you'd then be saying "You bastard! You said you could get dinner for $8, and now $50 isn't enough? It's ludicrous, you should be ashamed of yourself!" 

[dactylopus]

On one hand, I see your point, and I am happy that they are pledging to provide their own money rather than ask for more.

My main point is that they should have been able to make their game without needing the extra money.  I just can't see why (short of poor judgement and shoddy budgeting) they wouldn't be able to make their game for the amount of money they received.

Edit: If you had your own money, you shouldn't need to ask me for $8 (unless you only went a couple of bucks over budget).  And if I gave you $50, you should have been able to eat at least 5 meals.

I actually agree with your last statement about being ashamed.

[Andail]

It's kind of like if I asked you for $8 to go get some dinner (thinking I'll just go to MacDonald's) and you give me a $50 and tell me to keep the change. So I say, well in that case I'll go to a proper restaurant instead and order a nice meal. Sure, it'll take a bit longer, but it's going to be worth it. But when I'm there it turns out I miscalculated (maybe I read the prices wrong on the menu, or didn't think to include the bottle of wine we're having, or at the last moment I decide we should get some dessert as well) and the $50 won't remotely cover it, so I have to run to the ATM and get some of my own cash to make up the shortfall.

Okay, I'm not that invested in this project (neither financially nor emotionally) but I would like to question this analogy.

Wouldn't it be more like:
We: Hey Snarky, we need to eat, can you make us all some dinner if we give you money?
Snarky: Sure, give me 20 bucks and I'll make a pie.
We: That sounds like a deal. Take this 60 bucks instead - some more guys wanted in. We trust you to cook a tasty pie, and we're hungry.
Snarky: Okay!
Snarky: Hey guys, I decided to make an extremely complicated dish instead, so I'm gonna need more time and money. Just sit tight for an undefinite amount of time, will ya.
We: Alright, but we would have settled for something quicker and less complicated. You could have saved the rest of the money for dinner tomorrow instead.

[Ali]

After that analogy I don't know about the Doublefine adventure, but I am a bit hungry.

[Ryan Timothy B]

mmmm... pie...

[Trapezoid]

$400k wasn't their budget. It was their minimum.

[dactylopus]

$400k wasn't their budget. It was their minimum.

They asked for $400k, insinuating that it would be possible for them to make a game at that budget (which is quite possible).

[Snarky]

Edit: If you had your own money, you shouldn't need to ask me for $8 (unless you only went a couple of bucks over budget).  And if I gave you $50, you should have been able to eat at least 5 meals.

I feel like you didn't understand my analogy. The food was for you, not me (presumably I'm paying for my own food separately; it doesn't enter into it).

My main point is that they should have been able to make their game without needing the extra money.  I just can't see why (short of poor judgement and shoddy budgeting) they wouldn't be able to make their game for the amount of money they received.

And my point is that that's really their problem, not ours. Unless they actually fail to finish the game as planned (and I think it's way premature to assume they will), the only people who have cause for complaint are shareholders in Double Fine.

I agree that it's a screwup. Different people can have different opinions on how big of a screwup it is (some have pointed out that the money they had left for the game actually wasn't that much, by historical standards, for a full-length adventure game â€" e.g. only about half the size, in real terms, of what Grim Fandango cost â€" that they may have had sound reasons to deliberately invest more money into the development, and that game development projects routinely run over budget because of the uncertainties inherent in the creative process), but the size of the budget overruns, and the fact that it's forced them into a course of action that has led to negative publicity and may affect sales (or the price they're able to charge for the game), clearly shows something has gone wrong.

But again, for now at least it's really only hurting themselves. So what's there to get mad about?

Okay, I'm not that invested in this project (neither financially nor emotionally) but I would like to question this analogy.

Wouldn't it be more like:
We: Hey Snarky, we need to eat, can you make us all some dinner if we give you money?
Snarky: Sure, give me 20 bucks and I'll make a pie.
We: That sounds like a deal. Take this 60 bucks instead - some more guys wanted in. We trust you to cook a tasty pie, and we're hungry.
Snarky: Okay!

This is the step I think you go wrong. The success of the Kickstarter campaign created certain expectations, and I think the vast majority of backers fully expected Double Fine to take all the money they'd raised and put it into making a great game. So it's more like:

You: Hey Snarky, we need to eat, can you make us all some dinner if we give you money?
Snarky: Sure, give me 20 bucks and I'll make a pie in half an hour.
You: Great! But some more guys wanted in, so what if we give you like $150 bucks instead? Then you'd be able to put together a real feast, right?
Snarky: Wow, OK. It's gonna take a little longer though... More like a couple of hours.
You: That's fine, because we know it's gonna be THE BEST FEAST EVER!
[later]
Snarky: Turns out the feast is a bit more complicated than I thought it'd be. It cost a bit more than $150, too; I'll cover that, but between getting the money and trying to make the feast everything you expect, it's gonna be another hour before everything's done.
You: But you said 20 bucks for a pie in half an hour! You are a fraud and a lousy cook! You ripped us off!

They asked for $400k, insinuating that it would be possible for them to make a game at that budget (which is quite possible).

Yeah, but in the same way you might be able to get a burger for $5 or less, while at the same time it's easy to go above $50 for a full dinner. Because the $5 option exists, does that make any $50 meal illegitimate?

[Dave Gilbert]

More like Double PIE adventure, amirite?

Anyway, getting back on track, any developer has a story like this. Lord knows I've done some crazy things to keep my company going and get games out the door.  Sadly, Tim Schafer is in the unenviable position of not only being the guy to "bring back the genre" (although some might take issue with that), but also being the poster child for Kickstartering games as a whole (whether he wanted it or not).  The spotlight is on him, along with everything that goes with it.

[Trapezoid]

$400k wasn't their budget. It was their minimum.

They asked for $400k, insinuating that it would be possible for them to make a game at that budget (which is quite possible).

It is. But the Kickstarter let the public determine the (initial) budget, and the public chose a game larger in scope.


speaking of food and pie, this is the analogy I posted on the Double Fine forum:

Tim Schafer is throwing a small party. He asks some folks to chip in for beer.

87,142 people chip in $3,336,371 for beer.

“Oh shit,” thinks Tim. “I can't throw a tiny little party and just pocket the rest of the cash. I need to make this an amazing party.”

Tim plans out an amazing party. It has been a long, long time since there's been a party this amazing. Everyone wants a party like this. But in order to get really nice drinks and music and whatnot, it turns out it's going to cost even more than what's been chipped in.

“Fuck it,” Tim says. This party is already going to be crazy, why not go the extra mile? Tim decides to make it a full weekend. Everyone who's already on the guest list is welcome to attend. The party will be so rad that people who aren't on the guest list will want to show up. They're welcome tooâ€"but they have to throw in some cash, just like everyone else. That extra cash will pay for the tigers and fire-breathers.

Everyone is happy.

[Snarky]

Everyone is happy.

Hah! 

$400k wasn't their budget. It was their minimum.

They asked for $400k, insinuating that it would be possible for them to make a game at that budget (which is quite possible).

These days, most game projects have stretch goals that set expectations and define how they'll use money they raise above the minimum. I'm not sure, but I guess that hadn't yet become standard when DF did their campaign. In any case their main deliverable was so vaguely defined that it would have been hard to specify any stretch goals. But the tacit understanding was still: More Money = More Awesome.

Another point is that if they'd only raised $400k (giving them a net game budget of $200-something K), and they went over budget by a similar ratio, Double Fine would probably have been able to absorb that cost without making an issue out of it, hoping to make it back in sales of the game afterwards.