Morals anyone?

[Trapezoid]

It's even possible to feel some understanding for fundamentalists, but considering some of the things they say and do it's not easy...
I guess this is easy for me to say since I never have to deal with fundies.

[Pessi]

I'm not even sure what this discussion SHOULD BE about. But I find it necessary to emphasize Sasha's point.

Every time someone mentions Bible, someone points out that Christians are full of crap. And that The Bible contradicts itself and thus is incredible. Concluding that Christianity is nothing but a tasteless joke.

It's logical, but in my opinion, the wrong conclusion. It's true that there are lots of contradictions, for the very reason Sasha pointed out. And it's true that almost all 'righteous' Christians you might know of, are hypocrites. Going to church on Sundays and so on. Nonetheless, I do not make the conclusion that Christianity is what these facts imply.

I think the essence of Christianity comes down to the gospel(s). I should point out that they're the only texts in the New Testament that supposedly contain God's message (told by Jesus). The others are written by people who didn't know more than we do, so to say. Anyway, I can't find anything in it that would contradict with itself. I also can't see anything negative about it. It only promotes things that are universally regarded good: don't kill, don't steal - in the simplest form. No matter what, living by the moral found in the gospel can only produce good, in my opinion. I don't think that can be disputed.

In my opinion, the whole issue pretty much comes down to this: "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit."

OK. I'm done.

[earlwood]

Bah I'm my mind is being thrown about with this..I was brought Catholic and I'm going to die one..but I don't know if completely if its true..It was all well and good until I realised it was much like Mythology (Heaven,angels,God) so I'm a little confused.I also at one point thought that the bible just might have been a novel(seemed very Likely). Then I also thought it might have been an elaberate prank, and 2000 years later, still going strong..but the last one is probably bullshit.

And about death row,couldn't that count as penence? I mean they are sorry for raping,killing,whatever, And I understand that & I would very well forgive that person if he were to murder me, but we would have to teach them that what they did is bad. So I'm all for death row but I think that in the case of lethal injection, that might not be crude enough. I think they be treated the same as there victims were.

[Ghostmaker]

What say they raped some girl/guy, then performed horrible acts of tourture apon them, like  slowly removing limbs, and just generaly doing things that would make a nazi doctor blush, does that mean we can do that all back on the criminal.

[earlwood]

That is exactly what I am talking about. Sounds a little inhumane..but the crime rate would be cut in half, if not more.

[remixor]

And who would you get whose government job it would be to rape people and tear their limbs off, or other such bizarre punishments?

[earlwood]

Never thought that about it much becuase it was a far fetched idea..I guess other rapist..or (because it doesn't envole a raping job) we can atleast bring the electric chair back to every state.

[Pessi]

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Electric chair - bad idea.

Even without the quote, I don't think anyone is less of a criminal if they commit the same acts for the sake of punishment. The people who committed the punishment would be equally bad. If not worse. Think about it, organized raping and torture?

But then again, we're pretty much running out of options.

Not that my point wouldn't still stand.

[Las Naranjas]

A pointless little fact. Murder rates are higher where capital punishment is in force (That's in a psychology textbook I have)

[ArchAngel85]

What's wrong with a fundamentalist?
They are people who believe in fundamentals.
Many of you can't seem to tolerate fundamentalists.
I'm a hardcore christian. I believe in the fundamentals. I'm a fundamentalist. (Bring it)
Many of you guy's stereotyped us. (not pointing out anyone)
A true Christian fundamentalist doesn't hate anyone, but loves 'em.
Many people go overboard, true.

So, Jimi, you respect all religions as long as the people don't truly believe in it. I see... Just asking. sorta.

Your eye for a eye description... eh. Doesn't sound right. It's refering to justice. Anyone here like Justice? That's what it is. Someone who murders deserves to die. stuff like that. How about Bin Laden? think we should just leave him? no, Justice must be served.
If you would look deeper into the Bible, it'll make sense.
The Bible is regard as the best book in the World, by both christians and non-christians. True!
(Can't see any contridictions or bad stuff. And I know more about it then many of you. Not bragging or beging arrogant, ya see. just proving a point)

Don't worry about offending me, cuz that's kinda beside the point. I'm not one of those guys who believe relativity(unless it applies to space-time and such), I'm an extreme absolutist. I'd say when somethings right or wrong. Now, many people will go and say oh you #!@$@#$ intolerant#$@#$#hateful !@$#!@son of a @#$@#. Not true. Don't be obsessed with hate, there's more than that. How bout love? (not romance type, but real one)

About evolution, what turns me off about it is the unreality of it. The entire theory is flawed. If you open your eyes, don't be so narrow-minded, you'll see.

Oh, and Sasha made a comment about Satan being a servent of God for temptation and punshiment. Only part true. Satan was an Angel(nothing to do with tempation and such) once, but fell and became the Devil. The devil tempts and stuff, but is not God's servant. God can use him though, cuz God is all powerful and such. (if God's not Omnipotent, He's not God, is He?)

Many of you seem to have views and make statements about the Bible, Christianity and Christians, but don't seem to grasp them very well.

Now, about Morals, as you probably already guessed. I believe in a definite right and wrong. What I say does not determine morality, but I try to seek the truth. What I say is not Truth, but I try to say Truth. Know what I mean? It changes the face of a fundamental if you get it.

Don't want to offend or hurt anyone, not my intention, just to tell the truth, at least my grasp of it.

Dang! That's one frigg'n long post. I wouldn't read it. too long. I must leave. (I usually don't right nearly this long.) Sorry, man.

P.s. ArchAngel has no relation to me. he actually stole my name! What the heck?  

[Timosity]

If it's obvious it is a joke, there is no reason you can't pick on religion or anything else.

The way I see it is if you can't take a joke, you're not really human, or you deserve to be offended.

[Pessi]

"Someone who murders deserves to die."

Now, I could answer this like you, and all the other 'hardcore Christians'. "That's not right. Open your eyes and see." See what? What's the use of saying that? What would you learn? Nothing! Be more specific or it's nothing more than a couple of nice words. "Use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." The very same logic holds true in this case.

Furthermore, if you murder a murderer, doesn't that make you a murderer? Don't you deserve to be murdered? "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

Related to aforementioned, I encourage you to give some reasons for why the evolution theory for example is so flawed. I'm not saying it's a complete and indisputable theory, but I'd like to be proved wrong about the fact that you don't have very good reasons behind your arguments.

"Many of you seem to have views and make statements about the Bible, Christianity and Christians, but don't seem to grasp them very well."

Could it be that this applies to you as well? Or even more so.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." How much more directly can you be in controversy with what Jesus teaches? You even say that killing is OK, when it is in The Bible: DO NOT KILL.

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

(Ironically, this applies to me as well.)

I know I am being offensive and perhaps too strict, but being the blind leader is worse than being blind.

Please, prove me wrong or continue seeking.

(By the way, I apologize for taking the discussion ever more off-topic. This just seems to be the most logical place for this discussion. It doesn't seem reasonable to take the discussion elsewhere.)

[wOoDz]

Its been cool to see what people think, religion comes in many shapes and forms, some people live by there ideals and can gain comfort from it, there are some which use it as a tool, and hide behind the name to justify their actions, Northern Ireland is a case in point.
My being faithless is the result is a cascade of events, but I won’t bore you with that, when my judgment day comes, if I’m wrong I’ll have a lot of apologizing to do!
At the end of the day, I don’t like opera or the Tellie Tubbies,(def Satan’s little helpers!)  So I don’t watch it, porn offends me so I just don’t look; we all have the power to use the “off” button.
As far as my game goes I’ll probably be ok if I mention  the content may offend, but I don’t think it will

[Femme Stab Mode >:D]

I think that everyone has their own little religion. No one can interpret another person perfectly. In Russia the Bible was mistranslated. later, it was translated again, this time more accurately. Most people laccepted the change but some didn't these people came to be known as "old-faiths". These people had to live in secrecy in Siberia because of heavy prosecution. Everyone who failed to accept the new interpretation of the bible was killed. Even now some families live secretly in Siberia away from the rest of the world and technology, maybe some of them still think they are beeing prosecuted...
My Great-Grandfather was an old faith.  Many of my mother's ancestors were pastors(sorry, I can't find an appropriate english title). One of them didn't marry a woman because she didn't give a beggar some bread. I quit Russian arthodox when I was 7 after reading a passage in the Bible saying that your husband is your master or something of that effect. I deviced my own unique set of beliefs after that. Religion is for people who seek to belong, cults are for people who seek to rebel but can't do it on their own. Why critisize them now? As much as I am aware, many people here are Jewish or Christian. They don't tell you to believe. I guess religion is okay as long as no-one forces you into it.  

[Las Naranjas]

I like the fact that if kids laugh at you you can pray and god will send bears to kill them.

THAT's religion

[Archangel (aka SoupDragon)]

Ok, ArchAngel85, here goes...

Firstly, since I was here first, it is you who stole my name And besides, there must be hundreds of people on the internet who have the nick Archangel.

Secondly, you comments on evolution; the main problem I have is that arguments against it are substantially more flawed than arguments for it.

Thirdly, you go on about 'love', and yet, and I quote, "Someone who murders deserves to die. stuff like that. How about Bin Laden? think we should just leave him? no, Justice must be served." Isn't murder one of THE UTMOST FORBIDDEN THINGS stated throughout the bible? Surely then there is no way that you could condone the death penalty.

Fourthly, you say "If you open your eyes, don't be so narrow-minded, you'll see." Now which is more narrow-minded, believing blindly in a 2000 year old revolutionist, or believing in the top few hundred greatest minds of the past few centuries?

Fifthly, you say there are no contridictions in the bible. Well how's about these for contridictions. The Crusades. The elimination of an entire civilisation in the south of France, because of their homosexuality. I could go on, but my history is not that hot.

And finally, you complain about people stereotyping you. Well I'm sorry, but when you seem to fit a stereotype so perfectly, it's difficult to avoid.

[Harvester]

Yey, a religious discussion! Cool! I just love them! I hope I will bring some fresh perspective here with my post :-) Let's have a quick review:

did you know, satan was made up in the middle ages to scar the population into the church?

Sorry, this is wrong. Satan appears in the Old Testament, which was written about 3000 years ago.

Yes, they do scare people into religion that way. it's pretty much " believe or go to hell".

Hmmmm... Well, yes and no. I admit, there are MANY so-called Christians who go around and threaten people they will go to Hell, but I assure you that no true Christian will ever do that. True Christians know that it's up to God to decide who goes to Hell and not up to those people. They are doing bad thing for Christianity and I admit I am also pretty much pissed off by that, although I am myself a Christian.

The bible contradicts itself many times because so many people wrote in it.

I don't think Bible contradicts itself MANY times. There are a few errors (like that thing about King Solomon having 4000/40000 stalls) but they are pretty much due to text getting damaged and/or bad translations. In Bible's general message there are absolutely no contradictions.

Christians can be divided up in two: Average Christians, and Fundamentalist Christians. "Fundies" are the ones with the crazy websites. They're pretty easy to offend, but there really aren't that many of them (they're a vocal minority.) Even the average Christian thinks Fundies take their religion too far.

The average Christians, however, aren't worth offending, because they're generally pretty nice and don't practice their religion in a hostile way. You probably know a lot of people who are Christians but don't feel the need to wear it on their sleeves. So if you want to be offensive, please don't confuse the "nice" Christians with the Fundies.

Hey Trap, nice to see you here :-) I believe I find myself in the category of "average Christians", because I do believe in God and think that Bible was God-inspired, but I don't go around and say "Hey everyone, you will go to Hell, I am the best!" and stupid stuff like that (ops, I've just said it! haha). But, don't you think that the thing that offends a Christian fundie will also offend an average Christian? Woodz, if you criticize the "fundie Christians" as Trap described them (a good exaple of this category would probably be Carrie's mother from the book/movie Carrie) by all means you have my support (even though I'm a Christian, too). But if you're going to talk how Christianity and religion in general are stupid, then that's another thing. Sure, if you bring some arguments, that's copletely cool. But you said you were going to "mock" Christianity. Why? When you said that "we are right, you are wrong, blah blah" you described the fundie Christian thing, which (I repeat) has nothing to do with Christianity as it's described in the New Testament. Of course, I'm not trying to tell you what to put in your game or something. Whatever you do, I will definitely play it and I'm looking forward to it.

I have respect for all religions, except for fundies, and pehaps jehovis whitnesses. Just the ones that come round our house all the time trying to make us into a jehovis whitness.

Ummm, coming round your house is far from being the worst thing about Jehovah witnesses :-). Did you know that they forbid blood transfusion? Many kids died because their parents forbid doctors to do the blood transfusion (or an organ transplatation) because that was against their religion (they say it's based on one of the verses in the Old Testament, but this is completely wrong).

Thirdly, you go on about 'love', and yet, and I quote, "Someone who murders deserves to die. stuff like that. How about Bin Laden? think we should just leave him? no, Justice must be served." Isn't murder one of THE UTMOST FORBIDDEN THINGS stated throughout the bible? Surely then there is no way that you could condone the death penalty.

You got him there :-) His post sounded like some crappy Republican Party propaganda. Whenever I heard people like G.W. Bush were calling themselves Christians, my stomach turns around.

Fourthly, you say "If you open your eyes, don't be so narrow-minded, you'll see." Now which is more narrow-minded, believing blindly in a 2000 year old revolutionist, or believing in the top few hundred greatest minds of the past few centuries?

Ummm, none of those two things is narrow minded, and they come completely hand-in-hand. Jesus was indeed a great revolutionist and the single most important figure in history. And greatest minds of past few centuries were mostly religious. I will mention only Newton, Gauss and Pascal but there are many many more of course.

Fifthly, you say there are no contridictions in the bible. Well how's about these for contridictions. The Crusades. The elimination of an entire civilisation in the south of France, because of their homosexuality. I could go on, but my history is not that hot.

I mentioned something about those contradictions earlier in this post, but what do you mean by Crusades? How is that related to Bible which was written like 600 years earlier?

Now, the main point: You people divide Christians into two categories and say "this category is nice, we should leave them alone, but this other category is nasty, so we should do our best to insult them and stuff". This is pretty much a Nazi attitude. Why would you mock or insult people like Christian fundamentalists? OK, you don't like them, that's fine, then just leave them alone. Don't speak to them, ignore them, unless they start something themselves. You are forgetting that we can also divide non-religious people into two categories: average non-religious people and atheist fundamentalists. I am sorry to say, but some of you easily fall into this other category. Why don't we all just live and let other people live? And finally, you are saying you are pissed off by the attitude of Christians, but what should I say about the attitude of non-Christians, like in Hollywood movies? Or for example Stephen King books? (note: I really enjoy King's work, I think he's a great writer) Every time someone religious appears, he/she is immediately shown as a fanatic, lunatic, stupid person etc. etc. I will only mention here two movies that I really really hated (and I think with a good reason) - Dogma and Chocolate. On the other hand, I really seldom see the examples of "Christian fundamentalism". The only pro-religion film I've seen lately was Signs, and even that one was not a bit offensive to people who are not religious.

Ummmmmm, looks like I'm done :-) Peace with you all

[remixor]

I'd like to say that I agree with Harvester in that I think there are plenty of "fundamental" atheists who will be just as hardcore and insulting as the fundamentalist christians they can't stand.  I don't have any problem with either of those people, it's just when they start hitting you over the head with it and calling things "obvious" that it gets to me.  On that note, Archangel85, don't say things like "Open your eyes" and expect your points to be self-evident.  

Also, I've not seen Chocolate, but in defense of Dogma, Harvester, I'd like to point out that Kevin Smith (the director of the film) is indeed a devout Catholic (hence the many Catholicism-specific references in the film), and that film was not made in satire of the religion itself but if anything as a comment on the fact that religion rests more on the basis of faith than on the basis of superficial rules.  If you can't bring yourself to like the film, at least accept it in the spirit it was intended, which is not one of mockery.  As a Catholic I have no problem with the film; it's just trying to make a call between true faith and the plenty of people who just follow all the rules and loopholes and call themselves religious.

Looks like I've ended up posting more about Dogma than anything else  Well, we had an IRC discussion about Kevin Smith movies then I watched them all again so I'm all in the mood.

[Creed Malay]

Dogma I  dug, it was just Smith talking about his take on religion, far as I can tell. Offensive, maybe, but thought provoking stuff often is....

The evolution deal... it always made the most sense to me, man, and I've read a lot of creationism v evolution stuff. SOme of the pro evolution ponits that I hold dear...

Kitties and Doggies. Look at all the wierd fuckery we've done to them by selective breeding, just over a thousand or so years. 'Course, this isn't exactly the same as evolution, because evolution's a kind of blind-chance-best-of-luck-deal, not someone choosing the bits they want in the next generation, pick and mix style...

Elephants. Elephants always used to have these huge, quality, major-leauge tusks. Good for clearing out shrubbery and proving to the other elephants what a big hard fellow you are, all that jive. THe lady elephants found the tuskiest males the hottest  - and vice-versa, I guess - mated with them, and had big tusked offspring. And so it went.
But now, elephants get hunted by people for the tusks, for the ivory.  They kill the tuskier ones, 'cause they get more ivory that way, and leave any inadequate-small-tuskers, or no-tusk freaks. In recent elephant generations, more and more small tusks and no tuskers are being born, as the micro-tusk genes become more and more common in the elephant gene pool, due to the actions of the hunters... evolution in action, man...

The fact that things aren't perfect. God being an all powerful, ineffible creator, wouldn't he have done a better job? Why the appendix? Did he decide to slip that nasty little bile bomb in there just to keep us on our toes? Could go off at any time, man....
Why do people go senile and lose the control of their bladders and bowels when they get old? What kind of a way is that to reward someone who's managed to make there way through life? Not something I reckon a loving god would do....

And then there's the unfeasibly large testicles of the northern wright whale. BUt i'll tell you about them later.

Davy

[Timosity]

I'm not religious, but I definately have morals and the 2 really don't have much to do with each other.

I also don't like religious debates, cause it's impossible to win either way.

Just another moralistic point of view on the topic of medicine, should we actually use medicine to heal people. Is it the right thing to do, are we trying to play god too much.

When it's someones turn to go, it should be their time, yet we save peoples lives and try to prolong our lives as long as possible.

Is it just part of our gene's and a will to live, or are we just too scared to see what's on the other side?

Are we scared to lose the ones we love.

From a religious point of view altering the human timeframe is probably seen as wrong in some religions and in others it is seen as a good deed that might help get into heaven.

personally I guess i see medicine in both ways, but I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for medicine which probably goes for many people here. so I can seee the benefit, but I try not to take any medication unless it is necessary, I have a good immune system cause I never take antibiotics to get over anything, just ride it out.

I don't get fanatical about cleaning too much cause having some germs around builds up your immunities, ever notice that people that are obsesive compulsive cleaners are more often sick, I never take panadol for a headache cause placebos do nothing.

Drug company's are some of the lowest forms of business out there so be careful and make sure you have a trust worthy doctorb

I'm just losing myself in thoughts here.

Medicine is a major part of our society these days but is it what was supposed to happen, was anything supposed to happen, are we just part of someone elses reality.

Is medicine just turning into big business, Australia is just about to head down the same road as the USA in terms of healthcare, it's just going to go from one of the best health care systems in the world to private sector bullshit that will be great if you have money but it will deter people who would normally go to a doctor.

maybe someone can make a virtual doctor in AGS, that'll save on some health care and probably be just as effective.

should we try to cure Cancer or HIV/AIDS, maybe these are things that were meant to happen to thin out our numbers, maybe they are teaching us lessons in what not to do and we haven't figured out all the do's and don'ts yet.

now there's some more topics and contradictions etc and the b is for bargain