your opinion on Roswell UFO crash

Started by arthur.com, Tue 31/07/2007 17:46:51

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Rui 'Trovatore' Pires

Is that a bad thing?

(btw, I wasn't talking about the American constitution, I was talking about any given constitution.)
Reach for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.

Kneel. Now.

Never throw chicken at a Leprechaun.

LUniqueDan

Quote from: Afflict on Sun 05/08/2007 11:37:46
Are weather balloons made out of foil?  ???

What's so strange about it? Foil concentrated sun, and echoes radar easier while light and way more resistant than early rubber balloons.

QuoteSecondly why do most of  these sightings happen in Mexico?
Dunno - but remember that for secret experiences of national defense purpose frontiers has little effects - not to mention that we're talking of flying objects.

QuoteDo you really think that the the army would be interested in a broken weather balloon?

Man... it was the 40's... Weather and weather predictions were fundamentals for strategy. And by the way those balloons not olny gathered datas about weather but also about radars, testing comunications, and magnetic interference for communication : Sometimes all in the same time.
(All of those issues crucial for defense)
The 40's
Radars were relatively new, unefficients and almost unstudied.
No satellites.
Few computers for calculating weather raw datas.
Strategic defense relied on long-distance bombers not on missile yet.
Long distance traveling by plane was still an adventure due to many problems (including weather.)

It's an era were sending a weather station to north pole were managed by Ussr/Usa secret services due to the importances of the data gathered...



-
"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe. Destroyed pigeon nests on the roof of the toolshed. I watched dead mice glitter in the dark, near the rain gutter trap.
All those moments... will be lost... in time, like tears... in... rain."

Vince Twelve

Quote from: Stupot on Sun 05/08/2007 11:45:46
These people are indeed smart most of the time but they also talk a lot of bollards.  These are the same people who invent new dimension everytime they have a new theory just to make the maths fit.

Before, there were three (four if you include time but I don't)... when they'd spent far too much time trying to get people to believe in string-theory but couldn't get the maths to work so they fabricated [I think it was] 6 or 7 new dimensions and said "they're there, they're just too complicated for the human brain to comprehend".

You're right.  They did make up new dimensions to make the math fit, but you say that like it's a bad thing.

Using existing and proven theories and mathematical techniques, they analyzed our current understanding of our universe and dimensions and found that our current understanding was flawed, and they could prove the flaw with verifiable math.  They found out from that, that there were more dimensions than we were previously aware of, and adding those into the equation, our existing laws and theories all work out, proving the new model and making it a new theory.

What would be ridiculous would be saying, "Well, our way of thinking is wrong, and we can prove it, but it's so much easier to think this way than to have to figure out how things actually are."  Which is kind of what you're doing.

I think that you're under the impressing that if something is a theory, it's just someone's hunch.  A lot of people think that a law is something that has been proven and a theory is something that hasn't been proven.  This is completely wrong.  Laws are not "higher" than theories and a theory can never become a law, even if it can be proven to be 100% true.

A law is a readily observable fact.  Laws describe the things in our universe, but they don't explain them.

Theories take laws into account and attempt to explain the things in our universe and why they interact the way they interact.  Theories, to become scientifically accepted, have been tested and verified again and again.  In a way, theories are stronger than laws.

So don't scoff at something just because of the non-scientific definition of the word theory.  A scientific theory is very proven, and very sound, and very reliable.

Unlike religion, or apparently... you..., if new evidence is discovered (such as that suggesting that there are more dimensions beyond the 3rd or 4th), scientists can reevaluate the things that they previously thought were true and accommodate the new information to create a more accurate view of the universe.  They don't just try to explain the new evidence away so it doesn't rock the currently-understood boat.

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires

How remarkably well put. But I still like the constitution metaphor better, because I don't know many of the long words you used, Vince.
Reach for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.

Kneel. Now.

Never throw chicken at a Leprechaun.

MrColossal

Quote from: Afflict on Sun 05/08/2007 11:37:46
Are weather balloons made out of foil?  ???

Do you really think that the the army would be interested in a broken weather balloon? (Maybe they were trying to create a diversion or just spice up the media a bit, who knows) :P


afflict if you seriously want to know the answers to those questions, watch this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2334857802602777622
"This must be a good time to live in, since Eric bothers to stay here at all"-CJ also: ACHTUNG FRANZ!

evenwolf

I second that link.  In fact I will repost it.    I've been talking about this video for the past five days.   


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2334857802602777622
"I drink a thousand shipwrecks.'"

RickJ

Well put Vince Twelve.  Let me add to what you said..

Quote
Before, there were three (four if you include time but I don't)...
This is also just plain wrong.  Time is a dimension.  If you want to meet with some one you must specify 3 spatial coordinates and a time coordinate.  Just no other way aroud it.  The spatial dimensions (i.e. up/down, left,right, forward,backward) and the time dimension are all affected (i.e. shaped, warped, dilated, etc) by mass and velocity.

Quote
... when they'd spent far too much time trying to get people to believe in string-theory but couldn't get the maths to work so they fabricated [I think it was] 6 or 7 new dimensions and said "they're there, they're just too complicated for the human brain to comprehend".
This is also inaccurate.  The idea of more than four dimensions originated in the 1920's with Kaluza and Klein.  They started with the theory of general relativity in 5 dimensions, curled up on of the spacial dimensions in a very very small circle, and ended up with a 4-dimensional theory of relativity plus electromagnetism.   They didn't just throw in an extra dimension to make the math work, rather they were attempting to formulate a relativistic explanation of magnetism.   The extra dimension allows the electron and it's electric field, to move around to create a magnetic field. 

In string theory extra dimensions were not added to make the math work out.  Rather string theory predicts and/or provides a means of calculating the number of dimensions in our universe from first principals.  It's explained much better in Wikipedia ...

Number of dimensions in string theory
Quote
One intriguing feature of string theory is that it predicts the possible number of dimensions in the universe, in the sense that it is consistent only in a certain number of dimensions. Nothing in Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism or Einstein's theory of relativity makes this kind of prediction; these theories require physicists to insert the number of dimensions "by hand". The first person to add a fifth dimension to Einstein's general relativity was German mathematician Theodor Kaluza in 1919. The reason for the unobservability of the fifth dimension (its compactness) was suggested by the Swedish physicist Oskar Klein in 1926 (see Kaluzaâ€"Klein theory).

Quote
One intriguing feature of string theory is that it predicts the possible number of dimensions in the universe, in the sense that it is consistent only in a certain number of dimensions. Nothing in Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism or Einstein's theory of relativity makes this kind of prediction; these theories require physicists to insert the number of dimensions "by hand". The first person to add a fifth dimension to Einstein's general relativity was German mathematician Theodor Kaluza in 1919. The reason for the unobservability of the fifth dimension (its compactness) was suggested by the Swedish physicist Oskar Klein in 1926 (see Kaluzaâ€"Klein theory).

Unlike general relativity, string theory allows one to compute the number of spacetime dimensions from first principles.
...

Quote
Are weather balloons made out of foil?
The better ones are made of Mylar, the same kind of plastic used to make magnetic recording tape.   Apparently helium molecules, because of their small size, are able to through rubber more easily than mylar.  Mylar is also used (for the same reason) to make happy birthday balloons like this one ..


This company, Meteorological Products Inc. makes mylar weather balloons like this one.  Very UFOish isn't it?   


evenwolf

The weather balloons don't need to look anything like a flying saucer for the Roswell incident to have occurred.     The most suspect "conspiracy" motivating factor was the government's retraction of a flying disk.


No one saw a weather balloon and mistook it for a UFO.   The government said they recovered a flying "disk"  & later changed their story to a weather balloon.   It wasnt the siting that caught people's eye.   It was the coverup.    But eric's link uncovers every aspect of the Roswell misunderstanding.
"I drink a thousand shipwrecks.'"

Afflict

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 05/08/2007 16:24:23
afflict if you seriously want to know the answers to those questions, watch this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2334857802602777622

I was trying to watch that but my ISP was on the frits, It loaded till about the point where he spoke about sofar's.

Trying to reload as we speak.

Also @  LUniqueDan

Didn't say its weird or strange was merely asking. :P

Bottom line is a believe in life on other planets, yet I am open to listen to others people's opinions and debates.

RickJ

I was responding to the question "Are weather ballons made of tin foil?".   My intent was to point out that they are made from mylar and many have a shiny metalic finish similar to what is depicted in the photo of the Roswell crash debris.

Thanks Eric for the great link.   

Afflict

#70
Agreed I was merely responding to LUniqueDan asking me why I think it's strange :P

I thought your posts were indeed insightful RickJ, also that is a very kewl link Eric.

Edit: The video was awesome, really interesting information.

LUniqueDan

RickJ :D

For the record, 'Mylar' get develloped in the mid-50's. But, you'r right, it can, and  are confounded with ETs.


In fact, the real Area 51 hoax, is that ppl believed of ET instead of Military reasearch facility! All the cover-up and so olny came from the fact that 'Area 51' were unofficials for years and, indeed, the Army bull***ited about it for years.

It sonds it works well...


"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe. Destroyed pigeon nests on the roof of the toolshed. I watched dead mice glitter in the dark, near the rain gutter trap.
All those moments... will be lost... in time, like tears... in... rain."

RickJ

#72
LUniqueDan: You are right, thanks for the correction. According to this Mylar was introduced in 1952.   
QuoteDupont's polyester research lead to a whole range of trademarked products, one example is Mylar (1952), an extraordinarily strong polyester (PET) film that grew out of the development of Dacron in the early 1950s.
However, it is quite common for the military to have access to technology 5-10 years before the general public.  Although I don't have any idea what material the debris in the photo is actually made from it is not unreasonable to think that it is something similar to mylar.

Afflict:  Hehe, I was responding to Evenwolf. 

MrColossal

Well obviously fellas this means that the military got the mylar tech FROM the crashed spaceship!
"This must be a good time to live in, since Eric bothers to stay here at all"-CJ also: ACHTUNG FRANZ!

lo_res_man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PET_film_(biaxially_oriented)
http://heritage.dupont.com/touchpoints/tp_1952/overview.shtml
Mylar was inventad in the early-mid 50's so that stuff from the 'crash' COULDN'T have been mylar,
And the stuff in the photo doesn't look to me like tinfoil, it looks more like mylar, but it hadn't been inventad yet
By the way this is an often related topic, do any of you think the moon landings were fake? If so I would like to have a rolliking time debating THAT!
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

Stupot

Quote from: lo_res_man on Mon 06/08/2007 06:32:41

By the way this is an often related topic, do any of you think the moon landings were fake? If so I would like to have a rolliking time debating THAT!

Haha, go back to the first couple of pages of this thread.  I tried to bring that theory up and got flamed for it.   Truth is, they probably weren't faked.  Millions of people watched it live on TV and you would've thought somebody somewhere would've picked up a genuine continuity error by now.

However, it's nice to think that the world was duped.  The perfect hoax.  And if and when it is revealed that there were no moon landings, I wanna be one of the few people who can say "I knew it!!!"... So until that day my arse will be collecting splinters.

Nacho

I encourage people to investigate how Roswell became popular, not if the bright material was mylar or fryed potato.

Roswell was not famous till 1980, when Charles Berlitz and William Moore published "The incident", about "facts" happened in 1947.

Did people in 1947 think that "The incident" was actually an UFO crash? No. Even Raymond A. Palmer, a science fiction editor which moved to "believer" founding the magazine "Fate" did not believe in it. And let' s remember that he was in a disesperate raid of good paranormal stories since his magazine was not going too well (He was also editor of "Amazing stories", but some of his writers moved (I.E. Asimov) seeing the sensationalist change of direction that his magazines were taking.

The news about the incident were published in an enviroment of high histeria. Soon before, Kenneth Arnold, an amateur pilot said he saw "nine boomerang shaped objects, flying like saucers thrown to a lake, flying over Idaho" He was convinced (in that time) they were some kind of secret reactor (And secret crafts which an suspectous simillarity with Arnold' s paintings and decriptions were prooved to be flying during that period), but an enthusiastic reporter (Bill Basquette) made a mistake and depicted the objects as "Flying saucers". Result: In the following weeks more that 200 "flying saucers" were seen over the US... When Arnold' s suspectuous objects had boomeran shape. A clear case of histeria.

That s why in a first moment, another enthusiastic reporter said that the alluminium paper he saw in New Mexico was a flying saucer. The US Army soon explained that they were pieces of a meteorological baloon of the project balloon, and nobody believed the Alien aspect of the ncident since 1980' s book (From the same author of "The Bermuda triangle").

I think it' s a quite clear case of "re-fryed" mistery to fool the believers. Of course there is a conspiration here, but it' s not driven by the Government, but by that smart ass Berlitz.
Are you guys ready? Let' s roll!

LUniqueDan

@ Nacho : Berlitz :D : I had almost forget him, I didn't know he was behind the Roswell hoax too,
not so surprising : Mr Bermuda Triangle... Mr Atlantis and other... But there was speculation about Roswell earlyer, but I don't know what was the object. Maybe just the fact that Roswell was an unregistered facility...

Maybe out of subject, but someone has heard of the rumors that Reagan have asked Gorbachev for a possible USA/USSR union in case of a massive earth invasion? I read it in a 2 square inch 'place holder' article on a mid-90 newspaper.
"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe. Destroyed pigeon nests on the roof of the toolshed. I watched dead mice glitter in the dark, near the rain gutter trap.
All those moments... will be lost... in time, like tears... in... rain."

Stupot

That's not such a bad idea.  I mean aliens won't reach Earth before we're extinct anyway, but how naive would we look on the off chance that they did come and we weren't ready. Saying that I think they'd be more likely to come in peace.  Although we would probably have started trying to blow them out of the sky before they've even had a chance to say hello.  Poor bastards.

Nacho

Yes, the "Roswell incident" happened before the book, and it has some kind of echo in the local media, that' s undeniable... But very very small, it passed quick (apparently the "fever" lasted less than 2 days) and if now it' s famous, it' s just because it had the "fortune" to be choosen by a recognised hoaxer. It was not the most strange or spectacular case (Typing that IMO there were more spectacular cases doesn' t imply that I believe that we have been visited by Alien spacecrafts, eh?)

It' s funny that you mention the Atlantis, because for me, it' s also a mistery how, from the thousands of myths that could have been used to create a "legend", this one survived over the rest. Like Roswell...  :)

PS before posting: I think I should explain a bit of Atlantis before "launching" the idea it' s a big hoax. Well... Atlantis was a short dialogue on just 9 pages by Plato. I think many knew the author, but I am not sure if everybody knows of how short and how lack of importance the dialogue had in comparision with the rest of the work of the Greek genious...
Are you guys ready? Let' s roll!

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