Mittens IX pre-planning

[Privateer Puddin']

Yeah, I don't see why the host needs to have stuff planned out, find a decent house for us to rent, perhaps knowledge of nearby stuff people might want to go do / see and just let people decide as a group what they want to do.

[Nacho]

I can't see how having a first time Mitteneer as the "host" would be such a disaster.

Nobody said anything about a "disaster". Nobody said anything about the difficulties... Stop the straw men. What I said is that it's unfair. Period. But I am off, if the possible hosts do not want to deffend their rights it's not me who must do it, I am tired of fighting with windmills alone.

End of discussion. Mittens will be made in the place that Disco made campaign for and will be hosted by someone who never expressed the smallest interest in attending. Weeeeh!

[Stupot]

Nacho, your bringing up of straw men is the biggest straw man of this entire thread.

[Becky]

What the hell is going on here?  There is no reason why this should be an issue.  Some people's posts are way out of line here.

[Darth Mandarb]

So ... are we changing the location to Italy?

[Nacho]

Nacho, your bringing up of straw men is the biggest straw man of this entire thread.

Which one? Do you really know what a straw man is? Straw man is this:

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Presenting and refuting a weakened form of an opponent's argument can be a part of a valid argument. For example, one can argue that the opposing position implies that at least one of two other statements - both being presumably easier to refute than the original position - must be true. If one refutes both of these weaker propositions, the refutation is valid and does not fit the above definition of a "straw man" argument."

When I say:
-It's unfair for the previous mittens attendants to give the host to someone who never attended.
And "people" reply:
-But he is able to do it! (Did I say he can't?) But he deserves respect! (Did I say he does not?)

People is replying to me to something I never said... And it' s probably the most annoying thing that can be made to me in the internet... I hate it.

Now please, Stupot, quote when I did the same in this thread, I would be gratefull to take note of it for not commiting the mistake in the future.

[Disco]

We don't have a firm host Nacho, please stop worrying about it Like has been said, it is just advice from a local and the internet. About 5 people so far have said they would organise or help organise, and IO don't see why we can't just get a few properties in mind and discuss those much like we are now. Some years, including this one, we had a couple properties and took everyone's preferences into consideration. Fransisco showed us two properties that worked for us and we chose from there. Wherever next Mittens is will likely be the same.

It is not like this is a situation where it is one person making 100% of the arrangements anymore.

[Becky]

It's unfair for the previous mittens attendants to give the host to someone who never attended

And I guess you could say that it's unfair for you to host another Mittens when you've hosted one before?  This is just ridiculous.  It's not about "fairness", it's about practicality and willingness to do so.  I don't personally give two shits who hosts, because as we've discussed, basically the person hosting books the property or whatever and then we all go from there as a group.  I think you're overexaggerating how big an issue this actually is.

[Darth Mandarb]

Okay ... everybody just needs to calm down a skosh!!

Nacho (and I) expressed opinions that were misinterpreted and then unnecessarily blown way out of proportion!  Let's just drop the issue and get back on topic here!

If it helps I can offer up some virtual hugs (or hand-shakes if hugs make any of you uncomfortable?)

[Nacho]

My reasons about not wanting Bicilotti as a host are based on:

-Tradition.
-Justice (Or, to be expressed better... my perception of justice).

Anyone wanting to argue with me in that terms, I will be here. I can perfectly accept to be told "Hey Nacho! Tradition is not so important!" or "Nacho... It's not about justice, we are dutch and we don't really give a fuck about hosting this or not". Honestly... I can accept that. Actually, discussion should have been over if someone said that to me from the beginning... Over with a simply and gentle "Ok! No worries! " By me.

To all the people replying to me thinking that I used the following arguments:

-I don' t like Bicilotti.
-I don't respect Bicilotti.
-Bicilotti is too stupid to host mittens.

Well... Shut the fuck up, and FUCK UPstop it! I never said that. It's exausting to fight for something you believe, but if you are proved wrong al least it's a big reward to learn why the other was right... trying to make people realise that you haven't actually said that thing they think you said is not exausting or can bring a reward at the end... It' s just annoying and stupid.

And Becky, yes... It should be unfair to me to host a second mittens, that's why I changed my proposition to host it to Ryan as soon as I noticed it... So, include this issue in the list of things I am not going to reply.

[MillsJROSS]

The reason I'm kind of against Italy is that there's a lot of pull to do touristy things. I like touristy things, and I think part of Mittens is absorbing a little bit of another culture. However, I like doing touristy things when my goal is to be a tourist. I don't want to be a tourist often at Mittens, I'm coming to hang out with people and have a few laughs, not to educate myself or take in the sites. Not that Italy prevents me from hanging out with people, but I get the feeling people are looking at going to Mittens from a tourist perspective, when in reality we'll probably only do touristy things 25-30% of the time.

However, I don't honestly care one way or the other between the two locations, because they're just background to the actual event. I'm going to Mittens either way. The only thing that should really matter is "how much will it cost us" and "how many people can we house". If it's cheaper in Italy and we can house more people, by all means, let's do it. And visa versa. So why not search for housing and let the numbers make our decision for us?

-MillsJROSS

[Pesty]

Holy cowzalive, guys. This is kind of amazing.

Here is what I propose for right now. Let's look at places in BOTH Holland and Italy. Houses, places we might want to visit, etc. If we find an amazing deal on a place, with enough room for those interested and a good price, we put it on a list. We, as a group, can be the hosts, no matter where it takes place. It's helpful to have locals, but unnecessary. As for any argument over who has the right to be a host, it should be anyone willing to do what little work is involved to be the host. Period.

As soon as we start making it elitist and only allow certain people to do things, we begin to fall apart as a community and then Mittens becomes less "buddies hangin' out havin' fun" and more "only the cool kids get to go".

Am I saying that Darth or Nacho are proposing this? Not so much, no, but it's treading a dangerous path. I appreciate their point, but our chaos has worked well in the past, and will continue to work well, no matter who books the house and "hosts".

[AGA]

Holy cowzalive, guys. This is kind of amazing.

Here is what I propose for right now. Let's look at places in BOTH Holland and Italy. Houses, places we might want to visit, etc. If we find an amazing deal on a place, with enough room for those interested and a good price, we put it on a list. We, as a group, can be the hosts, no matter where it takes place. It's helpful to have locals, but unnecessary. As for any argument over who has the right to be a host, it should be anyone willing to do what little work is involved to be the host. Period.

As soon as we start making it elitist and only allow certain people to do things, we begin to fall apart as a community and then Mittens becomes less "buddies hangin' out havin' fun" and more "only the cool kids get to go".

Am I saying that Darth or Nacho are proposing this? Not so much, no, but it's treading a dangerous path. I appreciate their point, but our chaos has worked well in the past, and will continue to work well, no matter who books the house and "hosts".

Come back when you've been to at least 5 Mittenses.

[Miez]

I'm changing my vote to Estonia before WWIII breaks out in this thread!

[Domino]

Enough...I will be hosting Mittens 2010 in Buffalo New York. 

[Snarky]

Well, I'm having my own Mittens, and it will be the best ever! (PS: None of you are invited.)

I have nothing helpful to contribute to this thread.

[Stupot]

http://www.identity-links.com/gloves-mittens-c-211_417_510.html

Personalised Mittens for all attendees!

[Layabout]

The reason I'm kind of against Italy is that there's a lot of pull to do touristy things. I like touristy things, and I think part of Mittens is absorbing a little bit of another culture. However, I like doing touristy things when my goal is to be a tourist. I don't want to be a tourist often at Mittens, I'm coming to hang out with people and have a few laughs, not to educate myself or take in the sites. Not that Italy prevents me from hanging out with people, but I get the feeling people are looking at going to Mittens from a tourist perspective, when in reality we'll probably only do touristy things 25-30% of the time.

However, I don't honestly care one way or the other between the two locations, because they're just background to the actual event. I'm going to Mittens either way. The only thing that should really matter is "how much will it cost us" and "how many people can we house". If it's cheaper in Italy and we can house more people, by all means, let's do it. And visa versa. So why not search for housing and let the numbers make our decision for us?

-MillsJROSS

I kind of Agree with this. While there are some places that are a must visit in Italy, I think most of this could be done before/after mittens if people so please. It is a backdrop, but hey, Italy is a stunning backdrop. 35-40 degree heat, that crisp mediterreanean air, the smell of fresh pasta in the distance. mmm hummm.

Any place we will get will probably be about 2 hours from Rome, so it would most likely end up with Rome being a place to visit before or after the event.

[Disco]

Just a few places I found in Italia-

Le Vecchie Case (farmhouse): Accommodations broken up in two like in France, 22 people, £1,851/â,¬2,166/$3,036 weekly.

Villa Ribino: Near Florence, which should be cool and a possible travel hub, sleeps up to 30, which should make £4,735-£5,923 ($9,714) easier to absorb if we get that many people to go  Would work out cheaper than Miami still if at least 28 go.

I looked for ones in Holland but could not find one for 20+, highest I saw was 14. I'll check some other sites as there must be something.

These are just the first few I found, will check out some more after sleep.

[Layabout]

Screw the houses. They are for simpletons. What we need is a Castle!

http://www.tuscanynow.com/Rentals/Villas/Castello_di_Magrano_PriceID_4978.aspx