Why Your Game Is Broken Part X: RTFM!

[abstauber]

I recently joined this forums and went all through it...

1) Before getting to the forums, I got a page describing what this forum is not for.

2) Then I had to do a quiz and wondered that would happen if I fail. A message like "too noob for us, try SCRAMM"?

3) After I finally registerd, I even got a PM that I pretty please must follow the rules.

I really felt like I was breaking into one of you houses that day  :-
If I wouldn't have known before, that this is actually a nice place, I would have left instantly.

And now even more newbie bashing and elite encapsulation? Seriously... this is not what a "community" needs.

[markbilly]

Well that certainly needed saying, abstauber. The quiz really is intimidating. Especially if you are sent pms anyway...

That said, not entirely sure why the post exists. I browse the Beginner's Technical Questions thread quite a lot and I've pretty much never seen a thread like the one described. I've seen plenty that have been answered [many times] previously, but that's par for the course of any online help, surely?

^ I think this is exactly the issue. This thread (and other similar comments) is basically paranoia of something that barely exists.

[SSH]

Maybe it barely exists because of the quiz? 

[Iliya]

Creating your own AGS game = best adventure game ever!

[abstauber]

Doing it on your own, the spirit of the thread 

[Ali]

Partly I wrote it satirically.

And partly I intended to be able to create a viable visual guide for new users who aren't willing to read.

I think that's a pity, because there's some good advice which would be useful to newcomers. Unfortunately for them it's hidden behind a bit of vitriol which is entertaining for existing members but potentially intimidating for people who are new to AGS and the community.

I think this is exactly the issue. This thread (and other similar comments) is basically paranoia of something that barely exists.

You're crazy. Let's invade Iraq, they're harbouring newbies!

[SSH]

I personally think that the AGS forums are one of the best forums around.

[Huw Dawson]

KILL AL TEH NOOBIES!!1111!11ONEONEELEVENTY1

 

It's lighthearted enough, and it's not going to get put on the front page of the site, so let it be, folks.

Now, off to download AGS and put it onto my memory stick!

- Huw

[RickJ]

... It's always been a pet peeve of mine when someone posts not just asking but actually demanding help without having put forth an ounce of effort on their own part to discover the answer. Even if they had done as much as read the forum rules it would have at least directed them to the forum search and the wiki as well as the manual online.

Interestingly enough I had a very similar problem when I first started working at GE many many moons ago.   I put in ton of extra time to come up to speed on everything and become an expert at what I was doing (designing uPprocessor control systems).  I enjoyed helping my colleagues and sharing what I knew.  However, after awhile people whom I had never even met started showing up at my desk asking ill prepare questions. 

My dilema was that if I just told them to piss off I would be tagged with the "Isn't a team player" or "Dose not work well with people" monikers.   If I did their work for them then I wouldn't get my work done and would be tagged as being "Unproductive".    The solution I came up with worked very well for me back then and I think it can work has some relevance to this topic.

When people came to me ill prepared I would tell then that I was busy at the moment and that I would be glad to help them later and tell them that I could make time at 11:30 or 4:30.  Introducing a slight delay gave them time to think about what they wanted to ask.  Nine times out of ten they figured things out for themselves or got some else to do their work for them.

We had a lot of field engineers who would come in, work on a project, and leave with it.  This was usually a 2-3 year cycle so when they game back on the next project things were significantly different from the last time.  Once such individual was referred to me by mutual friends.  I didn't the guy or who had sent him at the time.  Althoughhe was by no means a newbie his question surely was "I have to work on such an such and I don't even know where to start.  Some people told me to talk to you...".   I was extremely busy so I quickly showed him where he could find diagrams of all the circuit cards from which our systems were built, I showed him where the hardware template diagrams were kept, and I gave him a stack of unbound  programming manuals and other reference that he could make copies of and sent him on his way.   We eventually became really good friends and years later were reminiscing about our first meeting over a beer.  I embarrassingly remembered  blowing him off.  My friend responded saying "No!  Not at all.  You were great.  You showed me where everything was and you had all those manuals there ready to be zeroxed .  You gave me exactly what I needed and wanted."

What you can take from all of this is that yes there are vexatious and stupid people around us all the time.  The best way to deal with such people is to ignore and avoid them as much as possible and to be friendly and civilized otherwise.  Realize that first impressions are often deceiving and that acting on them in extreme way in time result in your embarrassment and regret.

========================
While pondering this discussion, I was thinking that since there are rules for posting in the Beginner's Forum, perhaps there ought to be rules for responding as well.   I was thinking of something like the following may not be a bad idea to incorporate into the forum rules.

How to respond to posts in the Beginners Forum
If you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all.   (except for moderators sometimes).   

How to respond to an ill informed and/or annoying question?
If you're annoyed at someone for asking for help you shouldn't waste your time responding.   If you're annoyed it's not likely you have anything helpful or useful say; ignore this post and spend your time on somerthing more positive and productive.  We have a fairly large and diverse community so sooner or later someone who is not annoyed will offer kind and friendly help.  If no one replies then a moderator can step in,  explain why help was not forthcoming and how to get a better response next time,   and provide a little help and encouragement.

How to respond to an overly general question such as "Where do I start?".
You should realize that if someone is asking overly general questions it usually means that they are overwhelmed.   What such a person needs at this point is encouragement and to be pointed to some specific reference materials.    So you could  say something like this "It's difficult to answer such a generic question but I'll do my best.   You can find out about "ABC" in the help file under "XYZ" and "DEF".  There is also an excellent tutorial here some_tutorial.com and a game template at some_tutorial.com with some really good examples.   If I were you I would just do "this that  and the other thing".   I know it can be overwhelming at first but most people find AGS easy to learn and fun to use.   For the most part we have a friendly community who very generously offer help to fellow AGSers.  Asking specific questions is the best way to get help on the forum. 

How to respond to a specific question that has an obvious answer such as "How many controls can I have on a GUI?"?
Even people who have years of AGS experience are occasionally guilty of this as well as new folks.  Yes!! It's all in the manual but sometimes you just can't seem to find that needle in the haystack.  If the question is specific the answer can be short.  Perhaps something like "I think about 30.  It should be  under "System Limits" in the help file. ".   

[Pumaman]

1) Before getting to the forums, I got a page describing what this forum is not for.

I wouldn't say that page is particularly offensive, and most websites have some sort of rules/introduction page to their forum.

2) Then I had to do a quiz and wondered that would happen if I fail. A message like "too noob for us, try SCRAMM"?

I guess the quiz is always going to be a bit devisive, but it's designed to be fairly easy and even if you get a question wrong it tells you where to look for the right answer.

3) After I finally registerd, I even got a PM that I pretty please must follow the rules.

Who sent you that PM and what did it say? There's no official welcome PM as far as I know...

[LimpingFish]

Don't we have an basic online version of the manual? Couldn't we use that for linking answers to RTM-type questions?

Such as:

Q: "How do I move my character from one room to the next?"

A:  http://www.americangirlscouts.org/agswiki/Tutorial_Part_2_-_Creating_your_first_room#Edges

What I find with a lot of these questions (the really annoying ones) is that the person doesn't seem to want to have to do anything. They basically want someone to do it for them.

[abstauber]

I wouldn't say that page is particularly offensive, and most websites have some sort of rules/introduction page to their forum.
I guess the quiz is always going to be a bit devisive, but it's designed to be fairly easy and even if you get a question wrong it tells you where to look for the right answer.

I'm totally fine with the introduction page, it's just the conjunction of all three of these.

And if you seriously want to make a game and not just mess around, you need the forums.
Don't get me wrong (and I hope you're still reading), but the main website is in a desperate need of an overhaul. Broken links, more than outdated knowledge base (even from the days when I've been around), a bug tracker, that had no public tickes in 2 years. Even the main layout feels dated.

So that's it, what it might appear for a new visitor :
1) "Cool, showcase games. Let me try and see what the engine can do."
2) Downloads plays and realizes, that AGS is the right thing
3) Realize that the game, he just played also is a little old.
4) Revisits the site: "What? last layout change in 2004? Knowledge base articles from 2001?
5) Finds the news - "phew, still actively developed"

But to this point he already got the feeling that AGS's time of prosperity was in 2004. And this is absolutely not the case.

6) After messing around with AGS, he revisits the website again, looking for some resources, trouble shooting, whatsoever.
This This is my favourite btw.

At this point, feeling no.5  comes back, but because he already spent that much time with AGS (and hopefully it's online help) so he trys the forums. And then it all starts again....


Sorry for this extremely large post, but AGS is so much better and this place here too. It's like the land of Cockaigne, to get there you have to eat yourself through a giant wall of <insert whatever you can't stand>

Who sent you that PM and what did it say? There's no official welcome PM as far as I know...

I just made use of the almighty "Report to Admin" feature

[Gilbert]

Though it was supposed to be a bit lighthearted, I don't think starting this thread was a very good idea. On the other hand, it does spawn some interesting discussion.

I'd say that "read the manual" is not an acceptable reply. It's not always easy to know where to look -- for example:

Q: "How can I make it so that the text isn't shown when I have voices turned on?"
A: "Read the manual!!!"

Usefulness: Zero

On the other hand:

A: "You need the SetVoiceMode function, look it up in the manual for details"

Usefulness: Very.

Yes, that's also basically my take on the two tech. forums.
However, I think I would elaborate it a bit further.

Unlike some other creation suites, AGS is actually not initially friendly to everyone. In some programmes you can do simple stuff by just moving keywords, filling in boxes or moving sliders just by mouse clicks or the drag and drop method, while in AGS it is impossible to do much without writing text scripts. (Well, starting from AC era, there were indeed attempts in making the editor simple for beginners to do simple stuff. First the graphical script editor, then the interaction editor. But as it took a lot of effort to make them really usable, and they were unable to coop with the speedy development of AGS itself, so both attempts failed.)
The learning curve is quite steep for beginners to start using AGS, especially for those who have little or no programming experience.
Also, I think the move to OO style scripting does not help much in this division. It does help people to have more organised codes, especially for development in larger scales, but it in fact complicates stuff for newbies who just want to start simple.
The move to more like a professional development environment since V3 may also scare some people away, but it is inevitable as AGS has become more and more powerful and complicated with time.

So, when answering questions which are supposed to be about obvious and simple things in these forums I would first think of the following question:
How obvious or simple is the solution, can it be solved just by reading the tutorials, or requires the knowledge of some scripting keywords (functions, properties, variables, etc., even simple and obvious ones) that you have to find in some specific locations in the manual or search for some threads in the forums?

This is important, if the solution could be simply solved by reading the tutorials (which is obvious in the manual and every beginner should read), I will give some hints and advise the poster to read the whole tutorials, like this. And if the poster doesn't pay attention, in the 2nd or the 3rd time I'll just advise him seriously to read the tutorials, like this.

If it is the latter case (i.e. requires knowledge of keywords and searching, etc.) it is a different story. While the AGS manual does contain extensively amount of helpful information and is well structured, sometimes it is not that easy to look for the right information. As AGS has gone through years of development, it is powerful and contains loads of features. Even experienced users may find difficulties in finding what they want sometimes.
For example, there are LOADS of functions and properties related to GUIs. Currently there are 8 subsections about GUIs in the scripting section of the manual, it may not be easy to locate the desired content immediately. Also, the search function in the manual may not always help, as often times you may not know the correct keyword to search for and this also applies to the search function of the forums (even I myself have problems with it. I often need to search several times to find the stuff I want. So, it's a bit rude to ask the posters something like "Why don't you search the forums? There are LOTS of threads about this issue!", unless the related threads are so obviously that, like they are on the first page of that forum).
So, in these cases I'll recommend people to answer with more details, like for example simple instructions or links to manual topics or related threads. If you don't have useful information other than "RTFM", please don't post.

[monkey0506]

On the other hand, it does spawn some interesting discussion.

I'm always up for a good spawning... :

You definitely make some valid points Gilberot. Unfortunately (or fortunately for you all as the case may be) I don't have time to contest and laugh at them. I have to go to work.

Ultimately if this thread never helps anybody I could deal with that, but as you said, it has created some interesting discussion. Much better than that "AGS has becomez t3h boring" thread...

[nihilyst]

Unlike some other creation suites, AGS is actually not initially friendly to everyone. In some programmes you can do simple stuff by just moving keywords, filling in boxes or moving sliders just by mouse clicks or the drag and drop method, while in AGS it is impossible to do much without writing text scripts. (Well, starting from AC era, there were indeed attempts in making the editor simple for beginners to do simple stuff. First the graphical script editor, then the interaction editor. But as it took a lot of effort to make them really usable, and they were unable to coop with the speedy development of AGS itself, so both attempts failed.)
The learning curve is quite steep for beginners to start using AGS, especially for those who have little or no programming experience.

I had very little programming experience, but going through the tutorials pretty much got me started, resulting in two games (which are bugfests, okay, but they are games and even use non-standard GUIs), so I think the initial post has quite a point. Reading the tutorials (and following it's steps in the editor) is really helpful and should already give answers to "how do I change rooms?" and "how do I use objects?" questions.

But it's true that the 3.0 build ist quite complicated for beginners: I would advise a newbie to start with 2.72 and then switch when he thinks he's ready.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

It's sometimes difficult for advanced users to understand where novices are coming from, and vice-versa.  I've been programming off and on for over 10 years, so picking up AGS was pretty rudimentary and I only needed to refer to the help file or an occasional search on the forums for something esoteric.  For a novice, I imagine it's a much more baffling situation, and they are usually only interested at the novice stage in the end result rather than the journey; that is, they want results quickly to inspire them to continue, and as a result they tend to ask a lot of simple questions.

Simple questions don't bother me in the least, and I think my track record in CL and the tech forum for helping people shows I take a rather kid-gloves approach.  What does bother me, though (and many other advanced users) are people who seek only the end result of the AGS editor (the game) and want everyone else to hold their hand through every step of the way. 

This behavior doesn't work in your day to day life unless you're very very rich, so why should you expect it to work on the internet?  The smart answer is you shouldn't, and therefore should make an effort to search both the beginner's and primary tech forums for issues that 80% of other people have probably already had resolved, and when that fails look to the help file.  Making a post shouldn't be your first thought, it should be your last after you've exhausted the other options available.  Exercising this kind of behavior eliminates much of the vitriol thrown at new posters by some of the less-patient members of the community and makes you look like you're not the type of person to waste anyone's time.


As far as changing the forum sign up test and such, I really can't agree with your points, abstauber.  You seem to be passing off your experiences as though they happen to a great many new people rather than just you, and that's a mistake.  We've had very few complaints about the sign up system over the years, in fact, and that's something you might consider.

And now even more newbie bashing and elite encapsulation? Seriously... this is not what a "community" needs.

I don't mean this to sound 'elitist' or mean in any way, but who are you to tell us what the community does and does not need?  You're still rather new around here, and making statements like this as though you've been here for years  (statements I don't agree with, actually) make you appear rather standoffish and domineering.  My advice is to sit back, relax, and take this forum far less seriously -- and demand less of it.

[abstauber]

I don't mean this to sound 'elitist' or mean in any way, but who are you to tell us what the community does and does not need?

I'm pretty much aware of the fact, that I'm new around here
Therefore I meant a community, not this one in particular. It could also been this language barrier - if my statement, apart from that "community missunderstanding", sound snobbish, it was not meant to.
But as a direct answer: I actually work in the web business, so I might be a little sensitive to these thing. But yes, running a community in spare time is completely different from working with paying customers.

Anyway the point was, that getting started with AGS could be much easier. And instead of spending time in creating even more restriction, that time would've better been spend in something helpful. Like a new knowledge base or whatsoever.

[Pumaman]

I'm totally fine with the introduction page, it's just the conjunction of all three of these.

Yeah, I can appreciate that. As I say, the PM was not an official forum thing, it looks like one of our members has taken it upon himself to send that out.

Don't get me wrong (and I hope you're still reading), but the main website is in a desperate need of an overhaul. Broken links, more than outdated knowledge base (even from the days when I've been around), a bug tracker, that had no public tickes in 2 years. Even the main layout feels dated.

Thanks for your feedback, it's always good to hear what a fresh pair of eyes thinks about these things. Where are the broken links by the way?

I agree about the outdated Knowledge Base, and probably linking to it from the Forums page is not a good idea since it's not very relevant any more, so I'll remove that link.

4) Revisits the site: "What? last layout change in 2004? Knowledge base articles from 2001?

Good points. The "Last layout change 2004" text is completely unnecessary and does make the site seem dated, so I've removed it. As for the KB, I've removed the link from the Forums page and need to consider where to take it in future.

This This is my favourite btw

Hehe well spotted thanks, I've fixed those images.

The learning curve is quite steep for beginners to start using AGS, especially for those who have little or no programming experience.
Also, I think the move to OO style scripting does not help much in this division. It does help people to have more organised codes, especially for development in larger scales, but it in fact complicates stuff for newbies who just want to start simple.
The move to more like a professional development environment since V3 may also scare some people away, but it is inevitable as AGS has become more and more powerful and complicated with time.

This is one area where I think densming's video tutorials are really useful. A movie is worth a thousand words and as a newbie I think most people will pick things up a lot more quickly by watching someone else doing it, than by reading loads of text in the standard tutorials.

I don't mean this to sound 'elitist' or mean in any way, but who are you to tell us what the community does and does not need?  You're still rather new around here, and making statements like this as though you've been here for years

Haha Progz, you do realise that abstauber made Alles Euro, one of the first ever AGS games, back in 2000 (or was it 2001)? 

[LimpingFish]

Anyway the point was, that getting started with AGS could be much easier. And instead of spending time in creating even more restriction, that time would've better been spend in something helpful. Like a new knowledge base or whatsoever.

Yes, but time spent constantly updating the website and the knowledge base and the like, could be better spent working the bugs out of the AGS editor, or planning a new version of the engine.

This constant belief that people are stupid and need everything spelled out in big simple sentences is precisely what's wrong with the world in general, as far as I'm concerned; a blanket "dumbing-down" of every facet of our lives.

People who come to this community wanting to make a game, any game, and want to put the effort in, will take the time to look at the manual or read the actively updated version of the Getting Started With AGS tutorial that's available to anyone who bothers to click on the link to it. People who persist in moaning "How do I make a character???!" or "What's a baseline!!?" are time wasters, as once you answer their question they'll reply with "Okay. What's a walk-behind?!!!". Why take time out of our own lives to accommodate this tiny percentage of people? Are we some sort of gobshite outreach program?

This hippy mentality that basic common sense, or want of any measure of responsibility, is to be decried as elitism or snobbish behavior, is usually held by people who have no intention of working to fix the problem themselves. These forums are clean and organised and free from the shite that plagues a lot of online communities. There's a reason for that. We have good moderators; people who aren't interested in calling people newbs and handing down bans and thread locks when the mood takes them. We have a friendly community (and one that largely respects itself), as evidenced by our help forums and critics lounge: RTM answers, acceptable or not, are usually only used in reply to questions like those above. And we have a slightly more secure form of registration than most.

If we had a simple "Username+Email address = You're in!" method of joining, I'm sure we'd enjoy being knee-deep in cock-pill ads and links to xxxFATDATEONLINExxx.

Updates to the front page aside, where precisely is the problem?

[DanielH]

The website does need an overhaul, but that isn't greatly important.

On the other hand, I think we should:

A. Revise the quiz.
B. Ensure that new members KNOW about the forum rules, stickies, the AGS wiki and the helpfile.

Wouldn't life be easier if every newcomer introduced themselves in the newcomer thread and then they all fit in perfectly using good grammar, expert spelling and the utmost amount of politeness?

How to do this without sounding aggresive, however...